Author Topic: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)  (Read 3773 times)

FerriswheelBueller

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Re: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)
« Reply #90 on: March 30, 2021, 03:55:58 PM »
Does anyone know what Moore is referring to in this bit?

I can't think of a Morrison book about a historical serial killer, or an erotic Vertigo mini "involving characters from fiction".

I assume he’s referencing Grant’s Bible John - A Forensic Meditation (which I’ve never heard of but is listed on their Wikipedia page with the note it “covers similar themes” as Moore’s From Hell which is a bit of a giveaway).

No idea about the Vertigo mini though.

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Re: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)
« Reply #91 on: March 30, 2021, 05:30:45 PM »
The Vertigo mini could be Sebastian O - basically Oscar Wilde as a sort-of super-antihero - if you squint, I suppose.

Quote
Rose is raped by Nazis (IIRC V forces her into that position in order to cause her to have a nervous breakdown so she'll assassinate a prominent figure and Rose's fate is left unknown, but probably not good).

We may have moved on a bit, Mister Six, but is Rose raped? She goes through a hell of a lot of shit - physically (though not sexually) and mentally abused by her husband, picked up on the rebound by that sleazy radio producer who clearly doesn't care about her at all, and ending up debasing herself as a dancer at the Kitty Kat Keller - but I don't recall her being raped. Just a hell of a lot of other unpleasant shit.

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Re: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)
« Reply #92 on: March 30, 2021, 06:00:47 PM »
From V For Vendetta I was thinking of V saving Evey at the start from the Fingermen that were going to sexually assault or rape her. But I don't have it to hand to know if that's implicit or explicit or I've misremembered.

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Re: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)
« Reply #93 on: March 30, 2021, 06:04:34 PM »
It's pretty clear that they're planning on doing that for starters. Confirming it, Evey later remembers the incident traumatically - 'They were going to ruh...ruh...ruh...'

Re: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)
« Reply #94 on: March 30, 2021, 06:15:11 PM »
I assume he’s referencing Grant’s Bible John - A Forensic Meditation (which I’ve never heard of but is listed on their Wikipedia page with the note it “covers similar themes” as Moore’s From Hell which is a bit of a giveaway).

No idea about the Vertigo mini though.

Bible John wasn't a book, it was a five-part miniseries that ran in the anthology Crisis. Never been reprinted as far as I know, I think the artist Daniel Valelly had a breakdown and destroyed all the original art material.

It's actually pretty different from From Hell, there are no characters and it's not narratively driven - it's basically a psycho-geographical essay with pictures.

I just stumbled on this blog which goes into a proper deep dive about Morrison & Moore, certainly seems to present a lot of a evidence that the eternal self-publicist Morrison has been the main instigator of the "feud" over the years, mostly to the indifference of Moore.

https://tractorforklift.wordpress.com/2019/03/04/the-reason-why-alan-moore-doesnt-like-grant-morrison/


Re: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)
« Reply #95 on: March 31, 2021, 01:48:42 AM »
I don't know about Bible John being all that different from From Hell - it came out during the early chapters of From Hell when it wasn't particularly clear what the narrative was going to be, but it was clear that there was going to be a big psycho-geographical component.

Bible John reads (to me) like Morrison taking a stab at what he thinks From Hell is going to try to do, only for From Hell to develop into a more traditional (in some ways at least) story.

The "erotic vertigo miniseries" could be a garbled reference to Morrison's play about Lewis Carrol and Alice in Wonderland? No idea if there was ever a comic book adaptation planned.

Mister Six

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Re: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)
« Reply #96 on: March 31, 2021, 06:32:07 AM »
The Vertigo mini could be Sebastian O - basically Oscar Wilde as a sort-of super-antihero - if you squint, I suppose.

That's what I thought of too, but it predates Lost Girls by yonks and doesn't fit either the erotic aspect or the fictional characters one.

Maybe he just read the Arcadia bit of The Invisibles and got confused.

Still, even if Bible John is Morrison "ripping off" From Hell (rather than just being inspired by it and pinging off to do their own thing), that's, er, one comic from 1991. Not exactly an appalling history of theft.

Michael Moorcock got similarly baity about Morrison copying Jerry Cornelius in some of his earliest comics work with the Gideon Stargrave stories (which is a much more convincing claim) and apparently he and Moore would argue about who was ripped off worst by Morrison, so I wonder if it was a couple of cranky old blokes working each other up into a frenzy more than anything else.

Quote
We may have moved on a bit, Mister Six, but is Rose raped? She goes through a hell of a lot of shit - physically (though not sexually) and mentally abused by her husband, picked up on the rebound by that sleazy radio producer who clearly doesn't care about her at all, and ending up debasing herself as a dancer at the Kitty Kat Keller - but I don't recall her being raped. Just a hell of a lot of other unpleasant shit.

I thought she ended up being pimped out, or otherwise sexually exploited while being a dancer? Maybe I misremembered. Nasty business all round though.

Re: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)
« Reply #97 on: March 31, 2021, 09:19:52 AM »
The link Phil_A posted above goes more into Morrison's lifting of Moore, particularly early in his career.

Re: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)
« Reply #98 on: March 31, 2021, 09:33:47 AM »
I thought she ended up being pimped out, or otherwise sexually exploited while being a dancer? Maybe I misremembered. Nasty business all round though.
From memory, when she's working at the club, she's sick before a performance and the owner/MC/whatever, basically tells her to stay in the dressing room till she feels better, and he'll keep her company - leading to a frame that does suggest he's forced himself on her, but she's almost numbed to it all by that point.

Mister Six

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Re: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)
« Reply #99 on: March 31, 2021, 05:38:36 PM »
The link Phil_A posted above goes more into Morrison's lifting of Moore, particularly early in his career.

The Future Shocks stuff sounds convincing (with the caveat that I don't have the issues to hand) but much of that is a total hatchet job that either makes weaselly insinuations (look, Steve Yeowell drew a villain in a similar pose to a villain in Miracleman... erm, don't question how much input Morrison had on that, or question to what extent that pose might be a stock "floating villain does a bad thing" stance used in other comics) or totally ignores context.

For example, there's a mention of the Animal Man villain who has a red helmet like the one from The Killing Joke (which I think was a redesign of a 30s villain anyway, no?) and the skull from a Watchmen issue, and whose death mirrors the opening of Watchmen.

This is presented as a lift, rather than, say, the deliberate use of that iconography as a commentary on superheroics (they don't mention that the villain is elderly and senile, and just wants to relive the glory days of wacky 1950s comics before he kills himself, and can therefore be quite easily read as a criticism of Watchmen ushering in a new age of "gritty" comics).

Or the Invisibles stuff - the idea that Morrison copied the name of King Mob from Moore, when it originated with a UK anarchist group... which is appropriate, since The Invisibles is about a bunch of UK anarchists.

Or Morrison saying that he's riffing on Moore's writing style in the King Mob/Edith conversation, but no mention that every scene in that entire arc is supposed to be done in the style of a different comic book writer and artist (Frank Miller is invoked in one scene in which a fascist thug beats and interrogates a drag queen, for example).

Was nice reading everyone saying how indebted US comics are to Karen Berger, though. She's a proper comic book hero.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 09:07:42 PM by Mister Six »

Dex Sawash

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Re: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)
« Reply #100 on: March 31, 2021, 07:01:41 PM »
Watched over 3 nights. Not really sure what was happening or who anyone was. Second night was best, I think. Enjoyed most the parts with visible blue penis

FerriswheelBueller

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Re: Re-evaluating Watchmen (2009)
« Reply #101 on: April 01, 2021, 01:27:51 AM »
Watched over 3 nights. Not really sure what was happening or who anyone was. Second night was best, I think. Enjoyed most the parts with visible blue penis

Best bit.

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