Author Topic: Northern Independence Party  (Read 10644 times)

imitationleather

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2021, 10:58:04 AM »
Paul you've really done a number on the first page of what is going to be an extremely inspiring thread.

Let's start again!

Buelligan

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2021, 11:00:17 AM »
New page cunt ^.

Cuellar

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #32 on: March 29, 2021, 11:00:36 AM »
I think NIP is an unfortunate name.

Old Nehamkin

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2021, 11:01:21 AM »
THOSE WOMEN WERE IN THE NIP![/tag]

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2021, 11:04:06 AM »
I wonder if Stoke will be allowed in if we promise to behave.

Butchers Blind

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2021, 11:05:39 AM »
Thankfully not living in Yorkshire it doesn't apply.

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2021, 11:12:31 AM »
I'm northern and generally against bourgeois nationalism, which NIP appears to very much be not, but I've lived in the south and the Midlands, and there are very much a lot of people I've met on my travels who would like the same kind of political program as NIP (lol this is so bad) want, and I don't feel that my "northernness" (what even is that) means much when there are some right bluenose shitheads here that I have NOTHING in common with. If NIP leads to some kind of rehabilitation for Momentum now they've all been tarred with the anti-semitism brush then great, but there is no aspect of secessionism that I am interested in, and think that right now, ultimately, NIP are retrograde in character.

idunnosomename

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #37 on: March 29, 2021, 11:14:23 AM »
It is again with a heavy heart I declare I will have to vote for Baby Hitler.

Buelligan

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #38 on: March 29, 2021, 11:16:50 AM »
I'm northern and generally against bourgeois nationalism, which NIP appears to very much be not, but I've lived in the south and the Midlands, and there are very much a lot of people I've met on my travels who would like the same kind of political program as NIP (lol this is so bad) want, and I don't feel that my "northernness" (what even is that) means much when there are some right bluenose shitheads here that I have NOTHING in common with. If NIP leads to some kind of rehabilitation for Momentum now they've all been tarred with the anti-semitism brush then great, but there is no aspect of secessionism that I am interested in, and think that right now, ultimately, NIP are retrograde in character.

Clearly retrograde in the sense that it's nodding towards the ancient kingdom of Northumbria but progressive in the sense that conventional progress, for leftists, has been intentionally blocked by the only mainstream leftist party that exists in the UK, the Labour Party.  Progress must be made somehow, the alternative is far worse.

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2021, 11:52:17 AM »
We had a referendum on a North East assembly not too long ago - and that resulted in a ‘No’ vote which was so decisive it killed plans to have regional assemblies elsewhere.

There were a few key factors behind that: 1) people in the region generally hate politics and politicians and the idea of more of it was utterly unappealing, 2) the generally conservative nature of NE politics, and resulting distrust of changing things, and 3) internal squabbling, rivalries and jealousies (hello, people of Sunderland) meant that ‘power will be concentrated in Newcastle’ cut through in a way that wouldn’t be understood outside the area.  And not just because of our lovely accents.

The NEP actually stood in my constituency at the time (Newcastle North) of the 2015 GE.  They got a couple of hundred votes.  I was aware of them at the time, and there’s an appeal to me of the idea of the People’s Republic of Northumbria (which was my Facebook picture for a while), in reality I can’t picture a region less likely to go for it than the North East.  Though in reality, secessionist / nationalist crap simply takes away from the real problems - besides, a democratic socialist NE wouldn’t be in a bubble.  Atomised political structures make democratic socialism less likely as far as I’m concerned.  There’s more of a cap-doffing air to the NE than most outside will realise - the place which never voted Tory (well, before the disaster of 2019) but was as socially conservative as anywhere you could name.

I watched the Novara video.  There’s a reason the likes of Bastani and Sarkar come over as clueless about this stuff.  They see the number of red seats and make massive leaps about what that means.  The NIP is zero threat to Labour in the North.  If they think that Labour swinging toward the centre is a vote loser in the NE, then the lessons of 2019 have been thoroughly ignored.  People shouldn’t mistake Labour tribal votes for a yearning for democratic socialism.  A moderately left wing option was available, and many went with flag-waving reactionary bastards in an entirely predictable way.  I would be astonished if there was an area of the country that despised Corbyn more - nor one where that sentiment would be more predictable.  Labour losing votes in droves whilst in opposition isn’t suggestive of a yearning for change.  At the height of Thatcher picking a fight with the unions, at the peak of working class anger, Labour managed to lose a Newcastle seat to them under Michael Foot.  Corbyn & Brexit just meant that many voted with their instincts instead of their tribe.  There’s a culture war going on, and I think Bastani and co would get a shock if they went to a Labour constituency in the NE and found out what side of that fence most are on.  Though by the number of Union or England flags fluttering behind many of those fences, they might get a hint.

I’m not writing this because I’m happy about it, but because it’s my honest view as a person from that area.  I’m just glad I don’t have to canvas there anymore ...

pancreas

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #40 on: March 29, 2021, 12:00:14 PM »
What they offer, from a left-wing perspective:

1. Democracy. Thelma Walker is the first parliamentary candidate to be selected by the whole membership online. Compare with Labour who installed Saudi Paul from a longlist of 1. If you don't tell Kieth that this is unacceptable, in the only way he will understand, then you will never be able to vote for a left wing candidate for Labour ever again.

2. Socialism. Starmer has unilaterally dropped all Conference approved policy. There is no way he would weed out privatisation from the health service. Not even sure he would nationalise the railways. The LP is so right wing, it does not represent progress. The LP has to be told that this is what they must offer or they will be out of jobs. (Of course, when they do offer such things, would one believe a word of it? Probably not for a while yet.)

3. Devolution. We have the most centralised political system in the Western world. Councils have next to no power, no money, no agency. Therefore no-one cares about who is doing it and corruption is rife. A regional assembly could be a good thing. Anti-Westminster sentiment is, as Shoulders says, extremely attractive. Who wants Westminster making any decisions right now?

4. Political opportunity. Yes, Brexit appalling. Hitching one's wagon to that is a ghastly prospect. But there is room for cynical opportunism and one should take it. #getnexitdone. Brexit was born out of inequality, one way or the other. There will have to be some accommodation with the anger, and drive it towards something useful.

Prima facie, you could be forgiven for thinking it's all very cack-handed. The new state of Northumbria sounds absurd. But it has to be loud and remarkable enough for anyone to pay attention.

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2021, 12:01:08 PM »
internal squabbling, rivalries and jealousies (hello, people of Sunderland) meant that ‘power will be concentrated in Newcastle’ cut through in a way that wouldn’t be understood outside the area.  And not just because of our lovely accents.
I think a similar thing can apply elsewhere - I'm sure there's a degree of resentment still in places like Bolton, Wigan and Salford about being part of Greater 'Manchester' rather than Lancashire, seeing it as being deferential to the (relatively) big city.

It's perhaps a major stumbling block that I don't think there exists any kind of unified 'Northern' identity - being Cumbrian is a lot different for being from Liverpool, which is different from being from Leeds and so on.

Buelligan

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2021, 12:02:41 PM »
We had a referendum on a North East assembly not too long ago - and that resulted in a ‘No’ vote which was so decisive it killed plans to have regional assemblies elsewhere.

There were a few key factors behind that: 1) people in the region generally hate politics and politicians and the idea of more of it was utterly unappealing, 2) the generally conservative nature of NE politics, and resulting distrust of changing things, and 3) internal squabbling, rivalries and jealousies (hello, people of Sunderland) meant that ‘power will be concentrated in Newcastle’ cut through in a way that wouldn’t be understood outside the area.  And not just because of our lovely accents.

The NEP actually stood in my constituency at the time (Newcastle North) of the 2015 GE.  They got a couple of hundred votes.  I was aware of them at the time, and there’s an appeal to me of the idea of the People’s Republic of Northumbria (which was my Facebook picture for a while), in reality I can’t picture a region less likely to go for it than the North East.  Though in reality, secessionist / nationalist crap simply takes away from the real problems - besides, a democratic socialist NE wouldn’t be in a bubble.  Atomised political structures make democratic socialism less likely as far as I’m concerned.  There’s more of a cap-doffing air to the NE than most outside will realise - the place which never voted Tory (well, before the disaster of 2019) but was as socially conservative as anywhere you could name.

I watched the Novara video.  There’s a reason the likes of Bastani and Sarkar come over as clueless about this stuff.  They see the number of red seats and make massive leaps about what that means.  The NIP is zero threat to Labour in the North.  If they think that Labour swinging toward the centre is a vote loser in the NE, then the lessons of 2019 have been thoroughly ignored.  People shouldn’t mistake Labour tribal votes for a yearning for democratic socialism.  A moderately left wing option was available, and many went with flag-waving reactionary bastards in an entirely predictable way.  I would be astonished if there was an area of the country that despised Corbyn more - nor one where that sentiment would be more predictable.  Labour losing votes in droves whilst in opposition isn’t suggestive of a yearning for change.  At the height of Thatcher picking a fight with the unions, at the peak of working class anger, Labour managed to lose a Newcastle seat to them under Michael Foot.  Corbyn & Brexit just meant that many voted with their instincts instead of their tribe.  There’s a culture war going on, and I think Bastani and co would get a shock if they went to a Labour constituency in the NE and found out what side of that fence most are on.  Though by the number of Union or England flags fluttering behind many of those fences, they might get a hint.

I’m not writing this because I’m happy about it, but because it’s my honest view as a person from that area.  I’m just glad I don’t have to canvas there anymore ...

If you watched the interview, I'm surprised you mention Sarkar (she wasn't in it) or even Bastani's views, they weren't particularly evident.  Proudfoot did talk about that referendum though and his thoughts on the reason it failed - because it was offering another layer of politicians, it was offering Keep Westminster and add another layer of cunts or Keep Westminster - people don't want more politicians and they don't want Westminster.  Giving them that can be achieved through independence, not devolution.  Independence, not for nationalist reasons but because it's the way out from under the rule of Westminster.  And that's the route out, solidarity, uniting in the desire to be free from the shitshow that is the British government, who've robbed the North and the regions for generations and intend to continue.

Paul Calf

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #43 on: March 29, 2021, 12:03:04 PM »
What they offer, from a left-wing perspective:

1. Democracy. Thelma Walker is the first parliamentary candidate to be selected by the whole membership online. Compare with Labour who installed Saudi Paul from a longlist of 1. If you don't tell Kieth that this is unacceptable, in the only way he will understand, then you will never be able to vote for a left wing candidate for Labour ever again.

2. Socialism. Starmer has unilaterally dropped all Conference approved policy. There is no way he would weed out privatisation from the health service. Not even sure he would nationalise the railways. The LP is so right wing, it does not represent progress. The LP has to be told that this is what they must offer or they will be out of jobs. (Of course, when they do offer such things, would one believe a word of it? Probably not for a while yet.)

3. Devolution. We have the most centralised political system in the Western world. Councils have next to no power, no money, no agency. Therefore no-one cares about who is doing it and corruption is rife. A regional assembly could be a good thing. Anti-Westminster sentiment is, as Shoulders says, extremely attractive. Who wants Westminster making any decisions right now?

4. Political opportunity. Yes, Brexit appalling. Hitching one's wagon to that is a ghastly prospect. But there is room for cynical opportunism and one should take it. #getnexitdone. Brexit was born out of inequality, one way or the other. There will have to be some accommodation with the anger, and drive it towards something useful.

Prima facie, you could be forgiven for thinking it's all very cack-handed. The new state of Northumbria sounds absurd. But it has to be loud and remarkable enough for anyone to pay attention.

I'm pretty sure that no-one has said that they don't have good left-wing policies, but so did Corbyn and the red wall voted to humiliate him. People don't care about policy and act with revulsion when you offer free (taxpayer-funded) or low-cost (taxpayer-subsidised) services to them. What's different here?

Buelligan

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #44 on: March 29, 2021, 12:06:07 PM »
They don't all though, do they Paul?  Brexit was used, antisemitism was used, every fucking trick that could be used was used, we all know this.  We cannot carry on like that.

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #45 on: March 29, 2021, 12:08:14 PM »
If you watched the interview, I'm surprised you mention Sarkar (she wasn't in it) or even Bastani's views, they weren't particularly evident.  Proudfoot did talk about that referendum though and his thoughts on the reason it failed - because it was offering another layer of politicians, it was offering Keep Westminster and add another layer of cunts or Keep Westminster - people don't want more politicians and they don't want Westminster.  That can be achieved through independence, not devolution.  Independence, not for nationalist reasons but because it's the way out from under the rule of Westminster.

I did - I was referring to Bastani and Sarkar’s comments previously on NE politics.  And by having Proudfoot on at all, Bastani is taking him more seriously than almost anyone north of the Humber is likely to.

If there’s more than a couple of thousand voters in the NE who are looking for a way out of rule from Westminster I’d be astonished.

Proudfoot’s interpretation of that referendum defeat is borderline delusional.  It wasn’t a case of ‘they’re asking the wrong question - we want our independence, not devo max’.  Look, feel free to take his views on board.  But they’re utterly out of sync with reality.

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #46 on: March 29, 2021, 12:09:57 PM »
I think a similar thing can apply elsewhere - I'm sure there's a degree of resentment still in places like Bolton, Wigan and Salford about being part of Greater 'Manchester' rather than Lancashire, seeing it as being deferential to the (relatively) big city.

It's perhaps a major stumbling block that I don't think there exists any kind of unified 'Northern' identity - being Cumbrian is a lot different for being from Liverpool, which is different from being from Leeds and so on.

The proposal for a wider ‘North’ is even more doomed to failure for precisely those reasons.  There’s nothing emotional to hang it on - and any form of nationalism needs that.

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #47 on: March 29, 2021, 12:13:18 PM »
The NIPpers will require a celebrity figurehead to achieve even basic levels of recognition, which is problem #1 before virtually any of the other enormous problems.

Yet where there is opportunity there is hope. With the right voices and smart enough marketing it could be a more collegiate Take Back Control pt. 2, derailing the far right, reshaping the agenda appealing to the locals desires to not be ruled over by a distant and unaccountable administration while making it about social justice, local investment, etc.

Paul Calf's opinion may end up being true, but the mileage of exploring it is slightly dulled by virtue of the fact we already know his overarching opinion is that only bad things will ever happen as a result of any given political situation.

Lastly, I will say I and I alone* thought of this 10 years ago as a vehicle to derail Brexit and reground Labour AND HOW WE ALL LAUGHED

*possibly not true

Buelligan

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2021, 12:14:00 PM »
I did - I was referring to Bastani and Sarkar’s comments previously on NE politics.  And by having Proudfoot on at all, Bastani is taking him more seriously than almost anyone north of the Humber is likely to.

If there’s more than a couple of thousand voters in the NE who are looking for a way out of rule from Westminster I’d be astonished.

Proudfoot’s interpretation of that referendum defeat is borderline delusional.  It wasn’t a case of ‘they’re asking the wrong question - we want our independence, not devo max’.  Look, feel free to take his views on board.  But they’re utterly out of sync with reality.

I didn't say he interpreted that referendum as people wanting independence, I said he interpreted it as people being utterly fucked off with Westminster and politicians in general (feeling left behind, taken for granted and ignored by them, if you like).  Therefore not jumping at the idea of having another layer imposed.  Independence being the way to rid themselves of Westminster. 

If you think there's no one in the north, or not many who're interested, you should check out their twitter https://twitter.com/FreeNorthNow/status/1373060461843918848

The proposal for a wider ‘North’ is even more doomed to failure for precisely those reasons.  There’s nothing emotional to hang it on - and any form of nationalism needs that.

The emotion?  Being sick to the back teeth of being taken for granted and looked down upon.

pancreas

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2021, 12:16:01 PM »
We had a referendum on a North East assembly not too long ago - and that resulted in a ‘No’ vote which was so decisive it killed plans to have regional assemblies elsewhere.

That was 17 years ago. The story of Scottish and Welsh devolution and the benefits it has created for the NHS there are now well-established. Brexit has happened. The LP has collapsed all over the North. It's a totally different set of circumstances.

Quote
Atomised political structures make democratic socialism less likely as far as I’m concerned.

Why? The US is a two party state. No democratic socialism. The UK is a three party state. No democratic socialism. Spain, Portugal, NZ have PR, and some democratic socialism. Hence, one can argue the problem is with the atrophy of the traditional parties, with no way out of the inevitable corruption.

You may be right that NIP can't damage Labour. But you'd need more evidence than you've given. Probably the only thing one can do is to test it in an election.

pancreas

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2021, 12:17:15 PM »
I'm pretty sure that no-one has said that they don't have good left-wing policies, but so did Corbyn and the red wall voted to humiliate him. People don't care about policy and act with revulsion when you offer free (taxpayer-funded) or low-cost (taxpayer-subsidised) services to them. What's different here?

Brexit?

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #51 on: March 29, 2021, 12:18:59 PM »
What happened in 2017 then, did millions of people's hands just slip?

Paul Calf

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #52 on: March 29, 2021, 12:19:38 PM »


Why? The US is a two party state. No democratic socialism.

Denying the antecedent, mate.

Paul Calf

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #53 on: March 29, 2021, 12:20:31 PM »
What happened in 2017 then, did millions of people's hands just slip?

In 2017, we didn't form a government.

Zetetic

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #54 on: March 29, 2021, 12:20:48 PM »
Anything which might turn England's thirst for endless violence inwards has to be worth a go, doesn't it?

the story of Scottish and Welsh devolution and the benefits it has created for the NHS there are now well-established
Is this a common view in UK/English Labour?

I'd really like it to be true. (But to be honest, I think we're so screwed over by the slightness of the block-grant and the nature of the healthcare labour market, that our organisational arrangements have made practically no difference. And we've continued to deliver our most vulnerable people into the hands of for-profit providers along with a tonne of cash - it's just that Labour lies about it.)

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #55 on: March 29, 2021, 12:21:31 PM »
In 2017, we didn't form a government.

You referenced the Red Wall, not the entire country, so don't move the goal posts. What happened in those seats in 2017?

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #56 on: March 29, 2021, 12:22:08 PM »
Something I'll say that really does put me off is their logo (with the whippet) and the "It's about bloody time" slogan. Not sure it creates a good first impression - if anything, makes it seem like they belong in a comedy sketch.

Paul Calf

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #57 on: March 29, 2021, 12:22:20 PM »
What I'm saying is, good policies are not sufficient at this point in time to influence enough people to vote for your proposition. Has this always been the case? Will it always be the case? I don't know. But that's how it is now.

Buelligan

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #58 on: March 29, 2021, 12:22:56 PM »
Anything which might turn England's thirst for endless violence inwards has to be worth a go, doesn't it?
Is this a common view in UK/English Labour?

I'd really like it to be true. (But to be honest, I think we're so screwed over by the slightness of the block-grant and the nature of the healthcare labour market, that our organisational arrangements have made practically no difference. And we've continued to deliver our most vulnerable people into the hands of for-profit providers along with a tonne of cash - it's just that Labour lies about it.)

You get free script in Wales, don't you?

Love the whippet btw.  I like whippets.

Endicott

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #59 on: March 29, 2021, 12:25:47 PM »
Haven't Scottish nurses been offered (or about to be offered or something) 4%? Not enough but quite different to the English offer.

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