Northern Independence Party

[pigamus]

Their tweets are good

[Blinder Data]

Voting in another Starmer sycophant does nothing to change the power balance in Westminster. It is far more valuable to rock the Labour Party and make it learn that imposition of RW candidates at the whim of the leadership will precipitate its decline. If you wish, think of it as political chemotherapy.

But why I am I trying to explain something to you again? May as well teach algebraic topology to a bowl of sick.

Taking a few hundred votes off Labour in a by-election will not achieve your desires. If it's a new party, act like it is and stop focussing on internal Labour politics.

I know you have a style but I don't understand why you have to be so venomously rude.

[king_tubby]

'If you don't like the Labour party fuck off and form a new one then'

'Not like that!'

[jobotic]

Really don't care if a Tory wins. Be preferable to a Starmer clone Saudi shill. So it's a future vote for government policy rather than an abstention? So what?

I know it'll be the fault of the left but perhaps it will add to the disillusionment with Starmer and be a step towards making the party less fucking repellant.

[pancreas]

Taking a few hundred votes off Labour in a by-election will not achieve your desires. If it's a new party, act like it is and stop focussing on internal Labour politics.

I know you have a style but I don't understand why you have to be so venomously rude.

Sorry. It's just frustrating that you inevitably jump sooner-or-later to the worst Establishment-approved political takes on everything. Where are you getting this stuff from?

And yes, aiming to take a 1000 votes off the LP (or more), causing it to lose Hartlepool, is definitely worth a try. Firstly, it means there's something to build on. Secondly, it will tell the LP Exec that parachuting sycophants into safe seats has to stop. Both these aims are well worth pursuing, with no jeopardy whatsoever—it won't change the power balance in Westminster.

[earl_sleek]

'If you don't like the Labour party fuck off and form a new one then;

'Not like that!'

I'd rather the energy and thought that's going into NIP instead be directed into a national leftist party[nb]Yes I know the Socialist Party and SWP already exist; they're both busted flushes, tiny and useless with no popular appeal[/nb] that can drag both the Overton Window and the Labour Party to the left, similar to the way UKIP did to the right and the Tories.

[pancreas]

That's the point about the independence part of it. Concentrate firepower, capture (hopefully) Brexit votes, create a notion of community, oppose Westminster. It worked for Scotland, evidently. It needs something more than just socialism. That's why this has to be tried.

[Theremin]

I'd rather the energy and thought that's going into NIP instead be directed into a national leftist party that can drag both the Overton Window and the Labour Party to the left, similar to the way UKIP did to the right and the Tories.

I'm a touch sceptical of this, given that the last Leadership of the Labour party wasn't able to successfuly drag it left.

But to try and be serious - the issue with creating a national left movement is that there aren't generally enough people who would identify with that label all living in the same places in the U.K.

In certain cities, sure - but lefties are really spread out otherwise. Rather than concentrate on something with a specific Left or Right banner (which are super vague labels anyway), it is going to be more productive in the U.K. electoral system to try and cobble together a coalition of different groups under one banner.

That coalition-building is ultimately what made UKIP successful - the combining Little Englanders, conspiracy theorists, far-right Tories, libertarians, and disaffected voters of different stripes - not having any kind of coherent ideology.

[Twit 2]

I might join the Cornish Liberation Army.

[Buelligan]

Sorry. It's just frustrating that you inevitably jump sooner-or-later to the worst Establishment-approved political takes on everything. Where are you getting this stuff from?

And yes, aiming to take a 1000 votes off the LP (or more), causing it to lose Hartlepool, is definitely worth a try. Firstly, it means there's something to build on. Secondly, it will tell the LP Exec that parachuting sycophants into safe seats has to stop. Both these aims are well worth pursuing, with no jeopardy whatsoever—it won't change the power balance in Westminster.

This.  It's like everything you said, Blinder, about Keith gets shown, by time, to be misguided so rather than recalibrating, you simply feed the next group of questions into your politics-diddle.

Stop it now, think about why siding with the latent barbecue dad in you is making you so abominably wrong.  Also, ask yourself why you used to like the SNP.

[Theremin]

But to try and be serious - the issue with creating a national left movement is that there aren't generally enough people who would identify with that label all living in the same places in the U.K.

A great counter-example of how to fix this problem is Utah in the USA.

During the 20th century, there was a huge push amoung Mormon congregations to persuade their members to move to Utah. The thinking from the Church leadership was that, given the total number of Mormons in the USA, the only way to gain significant political power was to concentrate themselves in one place and effectively supplant/outbreed everyone else.

And it worked! Worked so well that they very nearly got one of their chaps the Presidency last decade (Mitt Romney).

It's almost a sort of Fundamentalist Christian Marxist-Leninist strategy.

But extremely unrealistic for bunch of individualistic U.K. liberals to accomplish.

[earl_sleek]

We could try it. The glorious People's Republic of Luton.

Actually tempted to try and start a LIP now.

[Paul Calf]

Mm. I think accelerationism is bullshit but at this stage I can't see what additional harm could be done by the Tories having an 82-seat majority rather than an 80-seat majority.

They'll still blame Corbyn and the left though. In the press, and in their own minds.

[EOLAN]

Will there be the big build in the media up on Starmer being on the edge of a humiliating loss - like was done for the Peterbrough by-election in 2019.
A constituency that the Conservatives had held since 2005 apart from when Labour had just taken it under Corbyn in 2017. And he actually managed to hold it, but things just went quiet then rather than saying how well the party did to hold after all the doom-mongering.

[Buelligan]

Given the billionaire-funded media's unambiguous hatred for Cromby (and anything left), I expect they're not too keen to pressurise Keith or give publicity to NIP.  If NIP becomes a real thing, what are they going to do to smear them?  Can they really try AS again?  Is Proudy a terrorist?  Does he hate the Royals?  What a pickle for them.  Fuck those nasty cunts.

[Old Nehamkin]

If fielding shite, vapid neoliberal candidates puts Labour in danger of losing votes to more radical/populist parties then it is incumbent on them to stop fielding shite, vapid neoliberal candidates. For anyone who believes in the current leadership's much vaunted pragmatism and adaptability in pursuing electoral success at any cost, it should be a massive alarm bell that they have shown themselves so readily willing to embrace various racist, jingoistic, corporatist and authoritarian talking points/dog whistles to professedly appease disaffected UKIP/Brexit voters and "moderate" Tories, while inflexibly rejecting any opportunity to harness or amplify any popular energy directed at redistributing wealth or challenging institutional power.

[Buelligan]

If fielding shite, vapid neoliberal candidates puts Labour in danger of losing votes to more radical/populist parties then it is incumbent on them to stop fielding shite, vapid neoliberal candidates. For anyone who believes in the current leadership's much vaunted pragmatism and adaptability in pursuing electoral success at any cost, it should be a massive alarm bell that they have shown themselves so readily willing to embrace various racist, jingoistic and authoritarian talking points and dog whistles to professedly appease disaffected UKIP/Brexit voters and "moderate" Tories, while inflexibly rejecting any opportunity to harness or amplify any popular energy directed at redistributing wealth and challenging institutional power.

Yes, yep, yep, yep, yes, yes!

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Most of the media don't really want a Labour win so they won't be nice to Keith on Keith on I on I either. The only way he will get enough of them onside is to basically disarm Labour as a left wing vehicle, so the media and the interests they suppory can go to sleep safe at night knowing that the rabid Trots aren't going to be forcing them to pay a small amount more in corporation tax.

[Johnny Yesno]

Can they really try AS again?

Yes, they can and they are.

[Johnny Yesno]

Most of the media don't really want a Labour win so they won't be nice to Keith on Keith on I on I either. The only way he will get enough of them onside is to basically disarm Labour as a left wing vehicle, so the media and the interests they suppory can go to sleep safe at night knowing that the rabid Trots aren't going to be forcing them to pay a small amount more in corporation tax.

That's what's utterly stupid about the current leadership, though. Pretty much everyone including many corporations think there should be an increase in corporation tax but the Starmtroopers are so hell bent on distancing themselves from Corbs that they've rejected the idea.

#notacult, though, right?

[Kankurette]

Most of the media don't really want a Labour win so they won't be nice to Keith on Keith on I on I either. The only way he will get enough of them onside is to basically disarm Labour as a left wing vehicle, so the media and the interests they suppory can go to sleep safe at night knowing that the rabid Trots aren't going to be forcing them to pay a small amount more in corporation tax.

Starmer is doing the political equivalent of the Spice Girls going R'n'B. He's trying to court a new audience, but they're not interested, and the original audience are repulsed by him. I know this is a clumsy metaphor. But it doesn't matter how far to the right he goes. People will still carp on about how Labour are too 'woke' for them.

I swear people still genuinely believe Corbyn is in charge.

[Buelligan]

Yes, they can and they are.

I saw some rather half hearted attempts day before yesterday but saw them get dealt with fairly swiftly too.  Is there more?

I'm worried about giving this non-story too much airtime but I feel it's important to say loud and clear: this is not antisemitic. None of it.



I'd encourage anyone who's in any doubt about this to read the Jerusalem Declaration on Antisemitism:  http://jerusalemdeclaration.org

The left has a long way to go in understanding the antisemitism within its ranks. However, this involves the ability to at once acknowledge, sensitively and self-reflectively, where antisemitism is present, and to state confidently where it isn't.

https://twitter.com/RivkahBrown/status/1376839082316337153
https://twitter.com/RivkahBrown/status/1376840378649837568

[All Surrogate]

But why I am I trying to explain something to you again? May as well teach algebraic topology to a bowl of sick.

I keep trying to make puns about 'fundamental groups', but getting nowhere.

I'd rather the energy and thought that's going into NIP instead be directed into a national leftist party[nb]Yes I know the Socialist Party and SWP already exist; they're both busted flushes, tiny and useless with no popular appeal[/nb]...

And you could argue in the other direction: the SWPs of this world are "busted flushes" because left-wingers fail to support them, prefering instead to dilute their energies by forming yet more parties. I mean, the SWP is no friend of mine, but at least its actually got 'Socialist' in its name.

[Buelligan]

So what party would you support then, All Surrogate?

[All Surrogate]

Lib dems.

[Johnny Yesno]

Lib dems.

Singular!

[greenman]

Sorry. It's just frustrating that you inevitably jump sooner-or-later to the worst Establishment-approved political takes on everything. Where are you getting this stuff from?

And yes, aiming to take a 1000 votes off the LP (or more), causing it to lose Hartlepool, is definitely worth a try. Firstly, it means there's something to build on. Secondly, it will tell the LP Exec that parachuting sycophants into safe seats has to stop. Both these aims are well worth pursuing, with no jeopardy whatsoever—it won't change the power balance in Westminster.

I mean recent history does tend to suggest this is actually the most effective weapon, Farage has been by far the most successful UK politician of the 21st century in terms of shifting the political mainstream via the threat of splitting the vote.

[MoreauVasz]

Also, it is a strategy that was very effective against Corbyn's Labour.

So-called continuity Remain was packed to the gunnels with New Labour types who campaigned in a way designed to lure middle-class liberals away from supporting Labour, the entire thing was dismantled the second Corbyn was disposed of.

Why not run the same scam on Kieth? Set up a political body designed to lure leftist Northerners away from voting Labour.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Also, it is a strategy that was very effective against Corbyn's Labour.

So-called continuity Remain was packed to the gunnels with New Labour types who campaigned in a way designed to lure middle-class liberals away from supporting Labour, the entire thing was dismantled the second Corbyn was disposed of.

Why not run the same scam on Kieth? Set up a political body designed to lure leftist Northerners away from voting Labour.

Now you have two sides who would rather burn Labour to the ground that cede it to the other even if they are only in charge of the ashes. Pretty unhealthy.

[MoreauVasz]

Now you have two sides who would rather burn Labour to the ground that cede it to the other even if they are only in charge of the ashes. Pretty unhealthy.

Labour delenda est.

The Labour Party has positioned itself as the only acceptable vehicle for political dissent. The leader of the Labour Party must channel that dissent into a functioning coalition. If Kieth can't do that, he should step down. If nobody can do that, maybe we need a new vehicle for popular dissent.