Author Topic: Northern Independence Party  (Read 10643 times)

Bernice

  • a turkey is a bad person (he/him)
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #60 on: March 29, 2021, 12:27:10 PM »
Something I'll say that really does put me off is their logo (with the whippet) and the "It's about bloody time" slogan. Not sure it creates a good first impression - if anything, makes it seem like they belong in a comedy sketch.

Yes, there is something a little ridiculous about it. But then, the proposition of Northern Independence is itself a bit of an absurdity (for one thing you have to invent an entity called "Northumbria" to make it work, it's a slightly forced nationalism), and perhaps leaning into the perceived silliness is a way to pre-empt scorn. I guess something similar has worked for the Johnsons and Farages of the world.

What I'm saying is, good policies are not sufficient at this point in time to influence enough people to vote for your proposition. Has this always been the case? Will it always be the case? I don't know. But that's how it is now.

Surely the interesting thing about the NIP is that it's stepping beyond the offer of 'good policy' alone and appealing beyond that to a sense of identity and frustration.

Zetetic

  • I wasn't supposed to be around this long, so…
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #61 on: March 29, 2021, 12:27:39 PM »
Yes, and that's a worthwhile policy for ideological reasons if nothing else.

(I don't think it's had a major impact on health, however, because while England puts a bunch of checkboxes in your way it also overwhelmingly provides free prescriptions in practice. It's interesting though that I've never seen a serious evaluation of variation in this policy - or really any major healthcare policy I can think of - across the UK[1].)
 1. Contrast with minimum alcohol pricing?

Bernice

  • a turkey is a bad person (he/him)
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #62 on: March 29, 2021, 12:28:24 PM »
While you're here, are NHS dentists worth a shit outside of England?

Inspector Norse

  • I bash the Bishop well.
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #63 on: March 29, 2021, 12:28:50 PM »
The NIPpers will require a celebrity figurehead to achieve even basic levels of recognition

They can use the lifesize model[1] of Compo outside the chippy bearing his name on the Greenfield Road.
 1. I hesitate to say "statue" because much like the real thing, it looks like it's been woven out of horsehair and pork scratchings

pancreas

  • The islets of Langerhans are the very best islets
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #64 on: March 29, 2021, 12:28:57 PM »
Something I'll say that really does put me off is their logo (with the whippet) and the "It's about bloody time" slogan. Not sure it creates a good first impression - if anything, makes it seem like they belong in a comedy sketch.

'Get Brexit Done'

Yes. We are in our own comedy sketch.

bgmnts

  • Depressed to the point of poisonous toxicity.
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #65 on: March 29, 2021, 12:33:16 PM »
Why dont they just split England up from the tip of the Severn north east until somewhere like Kings Lynn. Then draw another line from the tip of the mersey in a straight line east, dividing the country into South, Midlands and North. Cornwall just to dig a massive trench along the Devon border.

Then draw a straight line from the tip of the Severn to the tip of the Mersey and that's the new Welsh border. We need a bit of lebensraum.

Zetetic

  • I wasn't supposed to be around this long, so…
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #66 on: March 29, 2021, 12:37:53 PM »
While you're here, are NHS dentists worth a shit outside of England?
I imagine they're all pretty similar, with usual issues of labour shortages getting worse the more rural and further from the Imperial capital you get. Similar model everywhere, since the early days, of community dentists (overwhelmingly) being independent private contractors, like GPs.

Charges are lower in Wales than England. Scotland's and NI's charging structure looks a bit more unpredictable?

Cuellar

  • I'm over here
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #67 on: March 29, 2021, 12:39:56 PM »
Recreate and expand Hen Ogledd. All of Scotland and Wales, and the west country too. Why not.

BlodwynPig

  • The Last Living Member of COVID-20
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #68 on: March 29, 2021, 12:43:33 PM »
I watched the interview. I can't see the message cutting through without an unhealthy dose of nationalism and anti-immigration sentiment at this point in time.

What happens when the scope of the term 'immigrants' equates to everyone from outside a 100-mile-wide box drawn around the Pennines?

I don't think this is the solution.

Traitor. Manchester is not included in the North, go back home.

VOTE NIP!

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #69 on: March 29, 2021, 12:50:37 PM »
This invented stuff is invented
Quote from: Northern Independence Party@FreeNorthNow 11:54 PM · Mar 19, 2021·Twitter
 
  • WE DEMAND: Independence for the North
  • REJECT: The Westminster elite
  • SUPPORT: Democratic Socialism
  • OPPOSE: All Racism & Anti-Refugee Rhetoric
  • BUILD: On our traditions of solidarity
  • AND LOVE: The North!

https://twitter.com/FreeNorthNow/status/1373060461843918848

BlodwynPig

  • The Last Living Member of COVID-20
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #70 on: March 29, 2021, 12:55:25 PM »
Are they planning to stand in the local elections? This now my party. I'll be campaigning hard for them.

SAY NO TO RUTLAND POTATOES!

Buelligan

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #71 on: March 29, 2021, 12:58:46 PM »
I believe their plan is to field as many candidates as possible right across the North but they're focusing most of their resources on Hartlepool.  Obviously, money is a constraint.  Well done hog!

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #72 on: March 29, 2021, 01:01:28 PM »
I didn't say he interpreted that referendum as people wanting independence, I said he interpreted it as people being utterly fucked off with Westminster and politicians in general (feeling left behind, taken for granted and ignored by them, if you like).  Therefore not jumping at the idea of having another layer imposed.  Independence being the way to rid themselves of Westminster. 

If you think there's no one in the north, or not many who're interested, you should check out their twitter https://twitter.com/FreeNorthNow/status/1373060461843918848

The emotion?  Being sick to the back teeth of being taken for granted and looked down upon.

It’s accrued about 40k followers on Twitter in two years, which isn’t bad going.  Still find it odd that they include pretty much the entire geographical north of England mind.  And I’d strongly doubt that the Twitter following would transfer directly to votes. 

I just went back and revisited some of the resulting waffle from the 2004 referendum.  Reasons other than the ones I listed for the loss?  A rise in council taxes.  Not exactly the most left wing of reasons to vote the proposal down.  It’s also worth bearing in mind that loads of additional funding under NE control - including healthcare - was offered at the time.  It didn’t cause the NE to blink.  Another reason was that people in the NE were feeling ‘reasonably affluent’ and therefore had no reason to rock the boat.  The NE was the poorest region of England then, just as today.  I sometimes get the impression those from outside the region think we’re all in clogs and flat caps, salt of the Earth types.  Sorry, plenty are the same deluded ‘temporarily embarrassed millionaires’ that you get everywhere.  It’s why some parts of the left come across as utterly fucking patronising when it comes to the NE - putting words in our mouths in way they never would with Scottish or Welsh or N Irish voters.  ‘It was all about Brexit, Corbyn had nothing to do with it.  I mean the polls didn’t suggest that was the case, and I’ve never so much as set foot in Bishop Auckland, nor have a met more than a handful of people from the area - but my finger is on the political pulse of County Durham’.  Still, I look forward to plenty from outside the area telling us that we don’t understand our own politics, and how popular this will definitely be, and how much of a massive threat this is to the status quo. 

The NE has been shafted by London since time immemorial (or perhaps not immemorial - at least since the harrying of the North by the Conqueror!).  The answer is to have a proper left wing govt in Westminster - not pretending that Westminster doesn’t exist.  Taking your ball and leaving isn’t a solution.  I actually think that a left wing Labour govt is more likely to have to win a GE without a lot of the NE seats it used to rely on - but I don’t care if that’s what it takes.  Watching a left wing Labour lose Sedgefield & NW Durham but gaining Putney suggests to me that the old political map has been - if not torn up - then changed for the time being.

BlodwynPig

  • The Last Living Member of COVID-20
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #73 on: March 29, 2021, 01:03:36 PM »
I believe their plan is to field as many candidates as possible right across the North but they're focusing most of their resources on Hartlepool.  Obviously, money is a constraint.  Well done hog!

Will donate some hard cash to them. Maybe even look at joining as a candidate soon.

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #74 on: March 29, 2021, 01:09:44 PM »
What's their policy on the royal family? Invite Harry to be king? Or breed their own northern royals like the good old days of Yorkists and Lancastrians?

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #75 on: March 29, 2021, 01:11:22 PM »
Hartlepool - the town that hanged a monkey, then elected one mayor.

Seems as good a target as any.

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #76 on: March 29, 2021, 01:12:57 PM »
Yes, Proudfoot mentioned that, in that interview.

Will donate some hard cash to them. Maybe even look at joining as a candidate soon.

Huzzah!

What's their policy on the royal family? Invite Harry to be king? Or breed their own northern royals like the good old days of Yorkists and Lancastrians?

According to Proudfoot, in that interview, Royal family policy shit will be democratically decided by the members, they're pretty keen on members getting a say.

It’s accrued about 40k followers on Twitter in two years, which isn’t bad going.  Still find it odd that they include pretty much the entire geographical north of England mind.  And I’d strongly doubt that the Twitter following would transfer directly to votes. 

I just went back and revisited some of the resulting waffle from the 2004 referendum.  Reasons other than the ones I listed for the loss?  A rise in council taxes.  Not exactly the most left wing of reasons to vote the proposal down.  It’s also worth bearing in mind that loads of additional funding under NE control - including healthcare - was offered at the time.  It didn’t cause the NE to blink.  Another reason was that people in the NE were feeling ‘reasonably affluent’ and therefore had no reason to rock the boat.  The NE was the poorest region of England then, just as today.  I sometimes get the impression those from outside the region think we’re all in clogs and flat caps, salt of the Earth types.  Sorry, plenty are the same deluded ‘temporarily embarrassed millionaires’ that you get everywhere.  It’s why some parts of the left come across as utterly fucking patronising when it comes to the NE - putting words in our mouths in way they never would with Scottish or Welsh or N Irish voters.  ‘It was all about Brexit, Corbyn had nothing to do with it.  I mean the polls didn’t suggest that was the case, and I’ve never so much as set foot in Bishop Auckland, nor have a met more than a handful of people from the area - but my finger is on the political pulse of County Durham’.  Still, I look forward to plenty from outside the area telling us that we don’t understand our own politics, and how popular this will definitely be, and how much of a massive threat this is to the status quo. 

The NE has been shafted by London since time immemorial (or perhaps not immemorial - at least since the harrying of the North by the Conqueror!).  The answer is to have a proper left wing govt in Westminster - not pretending that Westminster doesn’t exist.  Taking your ball and leaving isn’t a solution.  I actually think that a left wing Labour govt is more likely to have to win a GE without a lot of the NE seats it used to rely on - but I don’t care if that’s what it takes.  Watching a left wing Labour lose Sedgefield & NW Durham but gaining Putney suggests to me that the old political map has been - if not torn up - then changed for the time being.

How many of those 40K joined in the last month or so, that's the interesting bit.  Remember the Labour membership numbers.

You talk about not taking your ball and leaving.  What if someone takes your ball and hammers a nail through it, repeatedly.  Labour's right wing have done this and now they can sit in the stands and shout to themselves.  Labour will never be a viable way of changing what goes on in Westminster, they have gone out of their way to prove it.  Now we must take their jobs and their seats.  And change the world.

Johnny Yesno

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #77 on: March 29, 2021, 01:15:44 PM »
Yes, there is something a little ridiculous about it. But then, the proposition of Northern Independence is itself a bit of an absurdity (for one thing you have to invent an entity called "Northumbria" to make it work, it's a slightly forced nationalism), and perhaps leaning into the perceived silliness is a way to pre-empt scorn. I guess something similar has worked for the Johnsons and Farages of the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamodernism#The_Metamodernist_Manifesto

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #78 on: March 29, 2021, 01:23:10 PM »

How many of those 40K joined in the last month or so, that's the interesting bit. 

You talk about not taking your ball and leaving.  What if someone takes your ball and hammers a nail through it, repeatedly.  Labour's right wing have done this and now they can sit in the stands and shout to themselves.  Labour will never be a viable way of changing what goes on in Westminster, they have gone out of their way to prove it.  Now we must take their jobs and their seats.  And change the world.

Yeah, I’m not sure on the numbers.  Would be interesting to see. But I was a campaigner during the NE Assembly referendum - you’d be amazed at how many positives you’d get canvassing who changed their mind / never intended to in the first place. 

You have to remember that the Labour right is very at home in the NE.  Blair, Mandelson, Miliband (D) etc - they weren’t exactly unpopular.

Labour was never a particularly revolutionary party - even Attlee’s govt never considers abolishing the Lords or the monarchy.  It’s a broad church party - those of us who are democratic socialists aren’t even close to being a majority of its electorate.  In fact, we’re a fraction of it.

Taking seats from Labour isn’t likely to do anything but keep the Tories in power.  I’m not keen on that - I actually know people who are affected by Tory govts, and for them and others like them the immediate solution would be a Labour govt.  Even the Blair govt improved the lives of plenty of working class people.

To change the world, you need enough people who actually want it to change.  I don’t see that at present.  The generations below me give me hope; they’ve proved willing to actually vote for proper left wing policies; they poll in favour of those policies; they’re clearly concerned about ecological as well as social balance.  But for the time being?  Keeping the right out is the hope.

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #79 on: March 29, 2021, 01:30:57 PM »
You don't see it because the Mandys and Tontys of this world make sure that people who really want to change the world stay out of politics.  Make sure they give up.  That's what the war on Crobbins was all about.  Well, they had their chance at having a revolutionary Labour government, now they can see the alternative.  We aren't going away or giving up this time.  We have social media now, the eighties are over and we no longer know our place.

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #80 on: March 29, 2021, 01:42:40 PM »
I don’t think Corbyn’s Labour was revolutionary though.  It was a mild social Democratic Party.  That it could be hammered in a GE by being painted as though it was run by rabid communists tells me how likely I am to see what I want enacted by a govt in the near future!  Christ, nationalised broadband was made to sound like it was part of a Five Year Plan.  People heard the words ‘internet free at the point of contact’ and thought ‘fuck that, that’s crazy, who is going to pay for it?’.  I’m not sure a country which thinks like that is in agreement with my desire to see all the means of production in the hands of the electorate.

Nothing would make me happier than to be wrong on this - but I just can’t see it at present.  Social media looks to me like a tool which is doing much better for the right than the left.  I actually saw a lad I grow up with call himself a ‘libertarian’ in 2019 - and he wasn’t thinking along the lines of Crossman or Foot.  He’s lived in a council house his entire life, and somehow thinks that society would be fixed by zero taxation and stopping ‘handouts’.  He isn’t alone.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #81 on: March 29, 2021, 01:46:50 PM »
Quote
Taking seats from Labour isn’t likely to do anything but keep the Tories in power. 

What's even more likely to keep the Tories in power is Labour becoming them but in red clothing. Starmer's actions so far have moved Labour dramatically away from any significant reforms of the existing system or challenge to the establishment to actually protecting and maintaining it while tinkering around at the edges.

What are they going to do once they get into power? Do they even know? Isn't that rather important? What is the point of making concessions and lending a hand to an entity that is going to do either nothing or more likely make things even worse?

Once you appreciate that you realise Labour can't defeat the Tories until it decides what it is about. The 'broad' church should not include:

- Illegal wars
- Buy to let parasitism
- Cronyism
- Asset stripping the state
- Tax avoidance
- Pro-apartheid policies
- Giving immunity to agents of the state to do whatever they like
- Backhanders and reprieves to major polluters
- Privatising education and health

Being a broad church means disagreeing on the journey, not the destination.

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #82 on: March 29, 2021, 01:47:06 PM »
Mancs and Scousers not included? Boo.

bgmnts

  • Depressed to the point of poisonous toxicity.
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #83 on: March 29, 2021, 01:49:15 PM »
Surely Liverpool and Manchester is part of The North?

king_tubby

  • Pig Champion
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #84 on: March 29, 2021, 01:50:40 PM »
Yes.

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #85 on: March 29, 2021, 01:51:30 PM »
Manchester is the Midlands as far as I’m concerned :)

Yours, an actual Northumbrian

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #86 on: March 29, 2021, 01:54:26 PM »
Yeah, but, fair's fair, you also think people should keep supporting Labour don't you?

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #87 on: March 29, 2021, 01:55:57 PM »
The North's southern border posts (West to East) :

Chester, Crewe, Congleton, Leek, Matlock, Alfreton, Mansfield, Lincoln, Horncastle, Skegness

But if Stoke, Derby, Nottingham, Newark, Grantham and Boston fancy it we'll be happy to annexe you into the Sudetenland. There may need to be a small displacement of people to accommodate living room for the true Northerners.

BlodwynPig

  • The Last Living Member of COVID-20
Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #88 on: March 29, 2021, 01:58:21 PM »
UGH, Have to use discord now - how do I go to #membership-verification channel on discord? gen Z level annoying

Re: Northern Independence Party
« Reply #89 on: March 29, 2021, 02:06:59 PM »
Yeah, but, fair's fair, you also think people should keep supporting Labour don't you?

Yes.  And vote in the way that best suits their own approach and desired outcomes.  I voted for a Labour Party led by Blair, by Brown, by Miliband and by Corbyn.  All of those men are to the right of my personal politics, but I wanted each of them to be PM rather than the other option.  Most of what I want is unlikely to happen - certainly without a wider socio-economic change happening first.  The only other way would be revolution - and if you need to shoot some people to persuade others, that’s where I draw a line.

If people think that the electorate are on average more left wing than the Labour membership, then they have my sympathies.  I admire your hopefulness, but you’re going to be sorely disappointed.

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