Northern Independence Party

[pigamus]

It's fuckery, basically, isn't it? The same way getting Corbyn elected was fuckery. It's finding a way to shake up their smug little centrist world.

[BlodwynPig]

sorted thanks to brilliant moderator...I can confirm the NIP are full-on leftists :)

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

If people think that the electorate are on average more left wing than the Labour membership,

Elections aren't about 'let's slap our policies on the table and see whose is best' anyway, they are an accumulation of long and short term trends, and from a political point of of view sensing then seizing a particular moment, as Corbyn did in 2017, as Johnson did in 2019.

The constant browbeating defeatism when it comes to left wing values is already discredited and something we sorely need to move on from. What matters is communicating ideas in a way that makes them seem urgently necessary. Those ideas can be anything with the right communicator, as we already know from history.

[Buelligan]

Yes.  And vote in the way that best suits their own approach and desired outcomes.  I voted for a Labour Party led by Blair, by Brown, by Miliband and by Corbyn.  All of those men are to the right of my personal politics, but I wanted each of them to be PM rather than the other option.  Most of what I want is unlikely to happen - certainly without a wider socio-economic change happening first.  The only other way would be revolution - and if you need to shoot some people to persuade others, that's where I draw a line.

If people think that the electorate are on average more left wing than the Labour membership, then they have my sympathies.  I admire your hopefulness, but you're going to be sorely disappointed.

Do you think, on the basis of 2017 GE result and considering the work done, not just outside the Labour Party, to prevent a Labour victory, that you are correct in believing that the electorate are very right wing?  Do you think, given that history, that people should continue to support the Labour Party or look to alternatives, if they want real change?

Because it seems to me, where we failed, was trusting the right wing of the Party.  They are the people that lost us that election.  And they are still there.  We can never win as long as they are, not with Labour.

[bgmnts]

Seriously though, is this a bit of a divide and conquer thing?

[Buelligan]

What?

[TheBrownBottle]

Elections aren't about 'let's slap our policies on the table and see whose is best' anyway, they are an accumulation of long and short term trends, and from a political point of of view sensing then seizing a particular moment, as Corbyn did in 2017, as Johnson did in 2019.

The constant browbeating defeatism when it comes to left wing values is already discredited and something we sorely need to move on from. What matters is communicating ideas in a way that makes them seem urgently necessary. Those ideas can be anything with the right communicator, as we already know from history.

Apologies, but the advancing years are increasing my weariness and defeatism. 

I agree re short- and long-term trends, which is precisely why I don't advocate people abandoning the party.  Labour will win a GE again in the next ten years, irrespective of policy positions.  The pendulum will swing back.  And the membership decides policy via NEC elections.  So those on the left should reconsider leaving.

I'm unhappy with how the leadership has performed, but I can't be arsed with the constant sniping.  I was unhappy with it when Corbyn was leader too.  Every elected Labour leader deserves at least one crack at a GE with the support of the membership. 

[bgmnts]

What?

Splitting the vote innit

[BlodwynPig]

Getting into it now

[BlodwynPig]

Splitting the vote innit

Sorry you can't join our new party, friend. We will be the dominant voice of a generation now.

[Buelligan]

Apologies, but the advancing years are increasing my weariness and defeatism. 

I agree re short- and long-term trends, which is precisely why I don't advocate people abandoning the party.  Labour will win a GE again in the next ten years, irrespective of policy positions.  The pendulum will swing back.  And the membership decides policy via NEC elections.  So those on the left should reconsider leaving.

I'm unhappy with how the leadership has performed, but I can't be arsed with the constant sniping.  I was unhappy with it when Corbyn was leader too.  Every elected Labour leader deserves at least one crack at a GE with the support of the membership. 

No, they really do not.  People need leadership.  Labour has not provided that.  Labour has worked, conspired, against its own membership and electorate.  Fuck them.  Why should people waste their lives waiting for them to play nice?  We owe them nothing.  They owe us.

[Enzo]

I hope they are able to enact the return of Yorkshire dartboards. End this treble madness!

[TheBrownBottle]

Do you think, on the basis of 2017 GE result and considering the work done, not just outside the Labour Party, to prevent a Labour victory, that you are correct in believing that the electorate are very right wing?  Do you think, given that history, that people should continue to support the Labour Party or look to alternatives, if they want real change?

Because it seems to me, where we failed, was trusting the right wing of the Party.  They are the people that lost us that election.  And they are still there.  We can never win as long as they are, not with Labour.

The 2017 election which we lost?  Yes.  We had a perfect storm of a useless PM who's first day on the campaign saw her make a spectacular arse of a key policy issue.  More people voted for a very right wing party.  And if everyone who voted for Labour in 2017 was on the left, then why did they suddenly decide they were actually right wing in 2019?  Did they forget they were socialists or something?

As NE politics is the concern of the thread, here's a Newcastle Evening Chronicle article from a few years back discussing the issue of voting Labour whilst being right wing.  During peak austerity, in one of the hardest hit regions, and 16% of respondents say that unemployment benefits are too low and cause hardship, but 54% reckon people could find a job 'if they wanted' and benefits are too high and discourage work.  This is the Labour heartlands we're talking about.

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/new-poll-shows-changing-social-5873056.amp

[imitationleather]

Gentlemen, you can't talk about Labour in here - this is the Northern Independence Party thread!

[Fambo Number Mive]

Part of the problem is that pre-Corbyn Labour didn't try nearly enough to challenge those myths around employment and benefits. If more had been done before 2017 to challenge them (I'm looking at you, Ed Miliband and Rachel Reeves), then perhaps that Newcastle Evening Chronicle poll might have been different.

[The Culture Bunker]

Part of the problem is that pre-Corbyn Labour didn't try nearly enough to challenge those myths around employment and benefits. If more had been done before 2017 to challenge them (I'm looking at you, Ed Miliband and Rachel Reeves), then perhaps that Newcastle Evening Chronicle poll might have been different.

In the case of my native Cumbria, I wonder how much thought/effort Labour put into the area: in 1997, I think they had four seats (Barrow, Copeland, Allerdale/Workington and Carlisle), now they have none. I'd be interested to know if the switch to Tory in all those was down to politics or just a "fuck Labour, give the other lot a chance" mentality.

Still, I do think this NIP group would do well to avoid connections with Labour, hence wondering whether their choice of candidate for Hartlepool is a wise one.

[Buelligan]

The 2017 election which we lost?  Yes.  We had a perfect storm of a useless PM who's first day on the campaign saw her make a spectacular arse of a key policy issue.  More people voted for a very right wing party.  And if everyone who voted for Labour in 2017 was on the left, then why did they suddenly decide they were actually right wing in 2019?  Did they forget they were socialists or something?

The point, which you seem desperate to miss, is that people were persuaded and did vote left, in enormous numbers, in the face of open treachery and backstabbing from our own side (as well as everything else), so think what you like, your idea that there's no appetite for hope or change is clearly wrong.  Just as your idea that we should hang on and keep propping up these useless parasites in the PLP is.  They are the reason we have a problem, not the solution.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Apologies, but the advancing years are increasing my weariness and defeatism. 

I agree re short- and long-term trends, which is precisely why I don't advocate people abandoning the party.  Labour will win a GE again in the next ten years, irrespective of policy positions.  The pendulum will swing back.  And the membership decides policy via NEC elections.  So those on the left should reconsider leaving.

I'm unhappy with how the leadership has performed, but I can't be arsed with the constant sniping.  I was unhappy with it when Corbyn was leader too.  Every elected Labour leader deserves at least one crack at a GE with the support of the membership.

Once you accept that the sniping is because people have deduced the leader is likely to be a net negative for the country., it becomes easier to understand why they aren't waiting around for an election in 4 years for a glorious onward future of managerialist decline.

The left didn't get a seat at the table in 1997 despite playing nice and they won't next time either. The only acceptable route is campaigning to win led by someone who is going to be a net positive, otherwise it is more of a waste of time than forming a regional pressure group in the guise of a political party.

The manifesto of 2017 was a net positive and one that achieved significant, near government-forming support, even though Labour were led by a supposed Bolshevik Russian spy who hates Jews and loves Arab terrorists and the IRA. It isn't a toxic document we need to distance ourselves from.

[bgmnts]

I keep telling everyone the only avenue for true change is violent revolution but nobody is listening.

If they wont give us the means of production, we'll take back the means of production.

[Kankurette]

Surely Liverpool and Manchester is part of The North?

Not if you're a Geordie.

I keep telling everyone the only avenue for true change is violent revolution but nobody is listening.

If they wont give us the means of production, we'll take back the means of production.

What happens to people like me who can't fight? Should I just buy a gun and hope for the best? (I'm serious.)

[TheBrownBottle]

Once you accept that the sniping is because people have deduced the leader is likely to be a net negative for the country., it becomes easier to understand why they aren't waiting around for an election in 4 years for a glorious onward future of managerialist decline.

The left didn't get a seat at the table in 1997 despite playing nice and they won't next time either. The only acceptable route is campaigning to win led by someone who is going to be a net positive, otherwise it is more of a waste of time than forming a regional pressure group in the guise of a political party.

The manifesto of 2017 was a net positive and one that achieved significant, near government-forming support. It isn't a toxic document we need to distance ourselves from.

I never suggested it was.  I thought the 2017 manifesto was well put together, and neatly thought out.  The 2019 one was a mess, mind b

[Buelligan]

Yeah, free high speed broadband and a green industrial revolution, what were they on?

In the case of my native Cumbria, I wonder how much thought/effort Labour put into the area: in 1997, I think they had four seats (Barrow, Copeland, Allerdale/Workington and Carlisle), now they have none. I'd be interested to know if the switch to Tory in all those was down to politics or just a "fuck Labour, give the other lot a chance" mentality.

Still, I do think this NIP group would do well to avoid connections with Labour, hence wondering whether their choice of candidate for Hartlepool is a wise one.

It's a new party putting up a candidate for MP at short notice, they needed someone with a proven leftist record (so's there could be no shenannigans, trying to make them out as nationalist fash), someone with a bit of experience.  There are always going to be connections with Labour because they're intending to take the North.  Hopefully, they will.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I never suggested it was.  I thought the 2017 manifesto was well put together, and neatly thought out.  The 2019 one was a mess, mind b

You have said that the reason the general public weren't falling in love with Labour and electing them into power was to do with political positioning which I disagree with. There is a conceivable route into government with a reformist centre left manifesto, but that gets further away every time the Labour right throw a shitfit and change Labour back to being a Blairite tribute act, a stale function that long outlived its popularity even by 2005, where Labour achieved a lower share than under Corbyn and 2010 where Labour achieved a lower share than under Corbyn and 2015 where Labour achieved a lower vote share than under Corbyn. The only electoral success in Labour's recent history was a dramatic swing in their favour in 2017, where unfortunately they were too far behind in seats to quite make up the ground, and additionally hamstrung by the sabotage going on at Labour HQ

[TheBrownBottle]

Yeah, free high speed broadband and a green industrial revolution, what were they on?

Both policies I was happy with.  But the entire campaign was a mess, and that wasn't solely down to the Labour right.  The introspection that was sorely needed never happened.

[Buelligan]

When should they have fitted that in?  Come on, we were all there.  Starmer's sat on his arse for a year being patted by the press and the PLP and is still fucked in the polls with no policies except Spycops and other sellout shite.

Whether or not you backed those things is immaterial, you said the 2019 manifesto was crap.

If you want to talk about Labour, let's do it in the Labour thread.

[bgmnts]

Both policies I was happy with.  But the entire campaign was a mess, and that wasn't solely down to the Labour right.  The introspection that was sorely needed never happened.

I am very certain the failure of Corbyn's Labour government was mostly due to the intense smear campaign against.

Pretty sure even if Jesus Christ went up against modern day Tories and their vicelike media grip, they'd still win.

[The Culture Bunker]

It's a new party putting up a candidate for MP at short notice, they needed someone with a proven leftist record (so's there could be no shenannigans, trying to make them out as nationalist fash), someone with a bit of experience.  There are always going to be connections with Labour because they're intending to take the North.  Hopefully, they will.

I'm a pessimist, I confess, so can also see things ending in electoral defeat for them at every turn due to the way the system is set up - but what would you see as a realistically good result for them at this first attempt?

I think their best plan may be to drop all ideas of "the North" and take a long run at one or two targeted seats at the next GE. If they can be shown to be a competent party that does well on local issues, then maybe they can move on from there.

[Buelligan]

Keeping their deposit would be amazing.  This is the beginning of a long road but it's a far more hopeful one that the roundabout we've been on.   With enough fundraising and enthusiasm, by the time 2024 comes, things could be very different indeed.  Obviously, it'll all be down to money and numbers but if they have those, they intend to fight all across the North and I really hope they do.  I really hope they win and all.  Time these awful bastards on both sides of the aisle realised they can't hog the ball any more.  Change has to come.

[TheBrownBottle]

When should they have fitted that in?  Come on, we were all there.  Starmer's sat on his arse for a year being patted by the press and the PLP and is still fucked in the polls with no policies except Spycops and other sellout shite.

Whether or not you backed those things is immaterial, you said the manifesto was crap.

No, I said it was a mess.  The approach was scattergun.  There was inconsistent messaging, which was not a problem in 2017.

Honestly, Starmer is performing poorly.  I'm not worried about a lack of policy three years out from a GE.  Polling at this point doesn't worry me either - somehow the British public think the govt is doing a bang-up job.  Hardest hit economy in the western world and over 100,000 fellow citizens dead, with a govt which has handed over billions to its pals for nowt in return.  And the silly cunts think 'Boris' is doing a good job.  It's insane.

[Bernice]

I keep telling everyone the only avenue for true change is violent revolution but nobody is listening.

If they wont give us the means of production, we'll take back the means of production.

This is a bad idea for many reasons, but principally for the fact that we'd get our fucking heads cracked in on day one.


I'm increasingly minded to see the Labour Party as something that socialists should swallow their pride and join for the reasons outlined by many - for as long as we have this shitty electoral system, we need to be able to affect policy/leadership of one of the two parties that can conceivably win an election. Beyond that, though, you're deluded if you think the Labour party in itself is the avenue to deliver meaningful socialist change within this country. Get involved in other movements, diversify the strategy, apply pressure in different areas. This is why I think the NIP is interesting and where I think it could have an effect - nudging the conversation leftward, applying corrective pressure to our overcentralised economy.