Topic: Vaccine "passports"

[Fambo Number Mive]

I support the right of pubs and other leisure venues to ask for vaccine "passports" is they want to, as long as people who are unable to have the vaccine for medical reasons also get ID to show to pubs and other leisure venues.

However, I am concerned about this being "the thin end of the wedge". I wouldn't want to see pubs and other such venues being made to check vaccine "passports", which would place a lot of stress on their staff. I wouldn't support vaccine "passports" being allowed for anything more essential to day to day life, not supermarkets, public transport or GPs surgeries for examples.

I also don't trust this government not to cock up vaccine "passports" or decide to outsource the production and distribution to a company owned by a Tory MP which charges four times the cost of another firm. I don't know if people who have had the vaccine get proof of having had it given to them, but if not the cost of a piece of paper showing evidence of the vaccine shouldn't be something that costs people a lot of money. I don't know what the answer is to this.

I'm also against most occupations requiring people to have had the COVID vaccine, aside from people working in frontline NHS roles and in care homes who can have the vaccine. I don't think it is unreasonable to require a nurse or doctor to have a COVID vaccine every year and any boosters as long as there are no medical reasons they can't have it. It's a balance between ensuring that people who are in high risk roles get the vaccine and avoiding discrimination against those who can't have the vaccine for medical reasons.

[bgmnts]

Nah, should be mandatory for me. The whole "eh, if you want" half arsed double speak way of doing things has been done for over a year and has been a major disaster hasn't it?

[BlodwynPig]

Don't see the problem. Just have sniffer dogs on each entrance.

[George Oscar Bluth II]

Nah, should be mandatory for me. The whole "eh, if you want" half arsed double speak way of doing things has been done for over a year and has been a major disaster hasn't it?

This is what makes it all so confusing to me. They've switched from a covid-libertarian stance where there's not even actual laws about what people can and can't do in their workplaces to "papers please". Aside from the merits or otherwise[1] I also think this, if the jabbing goes to plan, is going to be relevant for about six weeks or something. What's the point?

Clearly there's going to need to be some kind of international vaccine passport though, countries will demand it.

1.	And I think I'm against, brought in now it's age discrimination, later on it'll be discrimination against people who can't be jabbed for whatever reason. Not arsed about discrimination against throbbers like Lawrence Fox and Piers Corbyn though, fuck them,

[BlodwynPig]

Do vaccines stop transmission?

[flotemysost]

Do vaccines stop transmission?

Even if it turns out that vaccines don't do much to stop transmission (seems the jury's still out on that one - although I'd imagine even reducing the severity of symptoms would mean less coughing/sneezing, which surely in a way might help reduce transmission), I'd have thought that just knowing that no one in your pub is likely to get seriously ill if anyone is carrying it, would be far preferable to just allowing all and sundry in and hoping for the best.

There are certainly some very stupid arguments around passports from idiots harping on about Big Brother (or, worse, posting disgustingly insensitive comparisons to the Holocaust) who don't seem to realise that simply by going to the pub and buying a pint with contactless payment, they're already sharing far more data about their whereabouts, finances etc. than they would be by flashing a bit of paper or an app to a bored/stressed hospitality worker who most likely couldn't give a fuck who you are.

[Wanking Monk of Kefalonia]

Why only exemptions for medical reasons? What about people who refuse to take the novel vaccine because they have concerns about its long term safety and / or realize it's unnecessary for younger people to whom the virus doesn't pose a significant risk? Or maybe they recognize it won't be effective in a few months time with the inevitable emergence of new viral variants? Should they also be frozen out of society?

Anyway, good to see people from across the political spectrum - Corbyn, IDS, Ed Davey, maybe Kier Starmer - opposing the psychopathic twats floating the idea.

[Wanking Monk of Kefalonia]

Nah, should be mandatory for me. The whole "eh, if you want" half arsed double speak way of doing things has been done for over a year and has been a major disaster hasn't it?

Can't understand anyone stating that people should be forced to take a newfangled, gene based vaccine when the long term effects are unknown, and which appears to be unnecessary for the young and healthy. Significant levels of misanthropy going on here.

[Wanking Monk of Kefalonia]

Risk calculator for Covid: https://qcovid.org/Calculation

Turns out my personal risk is 0.0005%, so why the fuck would it make sense for me to get vaxed?

[BlodwynPig]

Even if it turns out that vaccines don't do much to stop transmission (seems the jury's still out on that one - although I'd imagine even reducing the severity of symptoms would mean less coughing/sneezing, which surely in a way might help reduce transmission), I'd have thought that just knowing that no one in your pub is likely to get seriously ill if anyone is carrying it, would be far preferable to just allowing all and sundry in and hoping for the best.

There are certainly some very stupid arguments around passports from idiots harping on about Big Brother (or, worse, posting disgustingly insensitive comparisons to the Holocaust) who don't seem to realise that simply by going to the pub and buying a pint with contactless payment, they're already sharing far more data about their whereabouts, finances etc. than they would be by flashing a bit of paper or an app to a bored/stressed hospitality worker who most likely couldn't give a fuck who you are.

we've done a bit of analysis (which should be published in a couple of weeks, maybe 3) that shows Lockdown and not vaccines have driven the case rate decrease. Now, this is speculative due to issues around data and variant onset (S gene drop-off).

[BlodwynPig]

Risk calculator for Covid: https://qcovid.org/Calculation

Turns out my personal risk is 0.0005%, so why the fuck would it make sense for me to get vaxed?

percentage of what?

[flotemysost]

we've done a bit of analysis (which should be published in a couple of weeks, maybe 3) that shows Lockdown and not vaccines have driven the case rate decrease. Now, this is speculative due to issues around data and variant onset (S gene drop-off).

I'm certainly no lockdown skeptic, far from it, and I also don't work in any sort of scientific field so forgive me if this sounds disingenuous and/or thick - and obviously I don't want to write off anyone who can't be vaccinated as a future social pariah, either - but if the majority of the population are vaccinated, then even if there are increases in cases compared with being in lockdown because vaccinated people are still able to spread it, then surely that won't carry the same implications as cases increasing pre-widespread vaccination (aside from potential for vaccine-resistant mutations, which is obviously a concern)? Otherwise what's the alternative, other than a permanent lockdown?

Risk calculator for Covid: https://qcovid.org/Calculation

Turns out my personal risk is 0.0005%, so why the fuck would it make sense for me to get vaxed?

Loath as I am to feed the monk, to frame an anti-vax argument like this is fucking dangerous bullshit. I know plenty of young, healthy people who would have scored similarly low on this test (none of the listed health conditions, healthy BMI, white Caucasian), who can now no longer walk up a short flight of stairs without getting winded, have pretty much zero short term memory, and still can't taste or smell properly, since having covid months ago. There are absolutely countless examples of people who haven't died or been hospitalised (which are the only risks being assessed in the Qcovid link) but who have nevertheless suffered life-changing physical and mental effects.

I'm incredibly fortunate not to have had covid (that I'm aware of, anyway) but I would far, far sooner get a vaccine that's been rigorously tested, than risk getting a virus which we're still learning about the extent of how it affects people - and all too often learning in the cruelest possible way. As it happens, one of my friends (who is currently suffering from long covid) nearly died a few years ago after suffering a rare reaction to Ibuprofen, AKA one of the most common over the counter drugs available - and they can't wait to get their covid vaccine. Any drug can have side effects, does that mean anyone who's ever popped a painkiller is a sHEePLe?

Urgh, not sure why I'm even bothering with this.

[Zetetic]

QCovid includes the risk of catching it during the first wave in the UK.

It's not the risk of suffering a bad outcome when you've caught it.

[flotemysost]

QCovid includes the risk of catching it during the first wave in the UK.

It's not the risk of suffering a bad outcome when you've caught it.

Oh I know, that was my point - to use it as an argument against getting vaccinated is completely misguided, and as I've said, dangerous.

[Zetetic]

Apologies, not intended as a response to you!

[BlodwynPig]

I'm certainly no lockdown skeptic, far from it, and I also don't work in any sort of scientific field so forgive me if this sounds disingenuous and/or thick - and obviously I don't want to write off anyone who can't be vaccinated as a future social pariah, either - but if the majority of the population are vaccinated, then even if there are increases in cases compared with being in lockdown because vaccinated people are still able to spread it, then surely that won't carry the same implications as cases increasing pre-widespread vaccination (aside from potential for vaccine-resistant mutations, which is obviously a concern)? Otherwise what's the alternative, other than a permanent lockdown?

This is based on current data. Doesn't mean that vaccines won't/aren't having an impact - we're still trying to work out how successfully (and other groups on the clinical side obviously).

[flotemysost]

Apologies, not intended as a response to you!

Cheers!

This is based on current data. Doesn't mean that vaccines won't/aren't having an impact - we're still trying to work out how successfully (and other groups on the clinical side obviously).

Thanks for clarifying, that's useful to know.

Re: passports, it is a tough one. I really do feel for the hospitality industry at the moment, and the possibility of allowing a somewhat safer return for venues does feel at least a bit hopeful and progressive, compared to the frankly insulting handling of their fate over the past year (the amount of food that must have been wasted during the blink-and-you'll-miss-it "substantial meal" window is a depressing thought, to say nothing of the financial and mental toll on staff throughout this whole time). But in the wider picture of how allowing such a return might affect the spread of the virus, it's hard to say.

Agree with Fambo that requiring a passport for more essential stuff like GP surgeries or supermarkets would be unreasonable (especially as in theory it's easier for those places to operate in a more covid-safe way, compared to restaurants and pubs where people typically sit indoors long periods of time talking, eating and drinking).

[mothman]

Don't see the problem. Just have sniffer dogs on each entrance.

Mate. They’re antivaxxers, not Terminators.

[Fishfinger]

"Should be optional for all leisure venues"

Re: the poll, if it's optional it's entirely meaningless. Mandatory or none.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Risk calculator for Covid: https://qcovid.org/Calculation

Turns out my personal risk is 0.0005%, so why the fuck would it make sense for me to get vaxed?

Caught out yet again for the sub-compost you are.

[Sebastian Cobb]

It seems to me to be a resurfacing of a national identity database. Selling it is a bit of a 'solution looking for a problem', they tried ID cards, then they tried some form of internet identity to prevent children from accessing grot, now they're trying to sneak it through as a covid solution in a moment of duress.

No good will come from it.

[Chedney Honks]

Now that I've had the vaccine I'm convinced this is the way forward for this country.

[Zetetic]

It seems to me to be a resurfacing of a national identity database.

And specifically one that you can be asked to produce proof of identity against in most public life, in a way that the DVLA's and NHSs's aren't really.

I think it's probably driven by desperation to find some way to reopen cafes, pubs and restaurants while doing something to cushion the impact on hospitalisation and death. I fear it'll obliterate existing protective behaviours like hand-washing and distancing, and I've no idea how these will interact - as Blodwyn suggests, probably not well.

[BlodwynPig]

A collective sense of being on constant tenterhooks - perpetually on the precipice - this is the killer. Waiting for the dam to break.

[Chedney Honks]

Feel like you and Z-bone are too close to it now. You're twelve months late.

To all intensive purposes, Covid is done.

[BlodwynPig]

Feel like you and Z-bone are too close to it now. You're twelve months late.

To all intensive purposes, Covid is done.

Oh, I know this - I knew I was too late in March 2020 - the sense of presque vu is a constant though, something very few manage to overcome.

[Zetetic]

To all intensive purposes, Covid is done.

I hope so.

Mostly. Working on the 'ViD ended up being a lot more straightforward than what I'm going back to, in some ways. That's probably a different thread.

[Chedney Honks]

We should do another poll whether we should have locked down properly in Feb/March 2020.

I will never forget the insanity.

[Sebastian Cobb]

And specifically one that you can be asked to produce proof of identity against in most public life, in a way that the DVLA's and NHSs's aren't really.

I think it's probably driven by desperation to find some way to reopen cafes, pubs and restaurants while doing something to cushion the impact on hospitalisation and death. I fear it'll obliterate existing protective behaviours like hand-washing and distancing, and I've no idea how these will interact - as Blodwyn suggests, probably not well.

It seems like by their own roadmap, assuming no delays (lol) it'll still not be ready until the vast majority of people have been vaccinated, making it of limited use at its prime directive.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Looks like Labour's going to support it: https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1379077423145291777

Not surprising given they love a database and blair was proposing it a while back, but disappointing none the less.