Topic: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?

[BlodwynPig]

There should be a WEEE day where we all put our waste electronics into a bin and then a lorry comes and picks them all up. 99.9% of waste electronics likely end up in landfill.

Not forgetting the devastation caused by sourcing the rare metals used in electronics.

[bgmnts]

Is it? maybe it is about raising that bar of what the minimum is, maybe overly moralising about individual decisions  (lots of which are predicated on resources) creates a climate of shame that others either tune out of or pretend they do the same just to keep face.

Not sure why this is a controversial thought; it's obvious.

Where is this moralising angle coming from?

[BlodwynPig]

Bring back the rag and bone man

In Germany (maybe elsewhere) they have days where you can toss out your unwanted/old stuff on the street and people can take what they want.

[TrenterPercenter]

Where is this moralising angle coming from?

Do you not think recycling and looking after the environment is a moral issue?

[bgmnts]

Well yeah its an absolute necessity.

Who is shaming?

[TrenterPercenter]

Well yeah its an absolute necessity.

Who is shaming?

You don't believe people shame or moralise to people about their behaviours?

[pigamus]

In Germany (maybe elsewhere) they have days where you can toss out your unwanted/old stuff on the street and people can take what they want.

People round here do that anyway

[Astronaut Omens]

Trenter, it seems like you're asserting that there are many people who
a) recycle,
and because of this
b) do not believe that they have any other responsibilities towards the environment,
and also
c) criticise other people for not recycling,
which leads to
d) the criticised people disengaging with environmentalism.

Could you go a bit into why you think this is the case? I've just not met many people like that, it doesn't really chime with my experiences.

[Gulftastic]

Recycling allowed me to dispose of 20 years worth of porn mags (all pre-internet) by putting a few at a time in with my newspapers when I took them to the recycling centre.

[Astronaut Omens]

Doesn't it all end up in a land fill in Malaysia anyway?

I appreciate you're comically exaggerating, but does anyone know the extent to which this takes place? Is it so frequent as to make the whole idea of recycling ridiculous, or is it just a minority of cases?

[Astronaut Omens]

I think during the Birmingham bin strikes the council admitted they were just chucking it all in the same wagon anyway. I still do it out of habit, bit not as assiduously as I used to.

Same question as with my previous post above about this point- how often does this really happen?

[Sebastian Cobb]

They do recycling here in the houses and council blocks but for some reason I think there's a private agreement between the factors and the council for our waste which meant pre-covid we just got biffa bins for general waste in the bottom of the block (underground car park) which were moved by contractors outside the building on collection day (which is where they stay now for 'covid safety'). There used to be a mixed cardboard recycling bin by the park but it disappeared, and there's a glass bank* near the old people's sheltered housing which I use, but haven't found anywhere for plastic, cardboard or metal. It's shit.

* which is probably the least useful - I keep glass jars to refill for herbs/spices/lentils/rice, and beer bottles for home brew, which means I only really end up chucking out the odd wine bottle.

[JaDanketies]

I appreciate you're comically exaggerating, but does anyone know the extent to which this takes place? Is it so frequent as to make the whole idea of recycling ridiculous, or is it just a minority of cases?

afaik it's the difficult stuff that ends up shipped halfway across the world. So a plastic coke bottle is worth something and is actually recycled. The little plastic wrap that goes around the coke bottle is worth much less / nothing, and is sent to the third world so it can degrade into microplastics and kill our children.

[Astronaut Omens]

I think people are used to recycling now and don't feel virtuous about doing it, it's just something you do.

My feelings exactly, to my mind it feel more like returning your library books than it does attending a demo.

[phes]

I appreciate you're comically exaggerating, but does anyone know the extent to which this takes place? Is it so frequent as to make the whole idea of recycling ridiculous, or is it just a minority of cases?

The EU introduced a ban fairly recently on exporting mixed and contaminated plastics (Y48) to developing countries but the UK has not transposed that and has a few years to do so, if at all. Boris Johnson has not fulfilled his manifesto pledge to ban export of this category of plastics. According to the article I just read the UK exported 7000 tonnes in September. I'm not sure how often it is exported though

[Sebastian Cobb]

The EU introduced a ban fairly recently on exporting mixed and contaminated (Y48) plastics to developing countries but the UK has not transposed that and has a few years to do so, if at all. Boris Johnson has not fulfilled his manifesto pledge to ban export of this category of plastics.

Is this combined with promises to cut landfill why there's renewed interest in building incinerators like this?

http://www.nessenergy.co.uk/about/about-the-ness-energy-project.aspx

[TrenterPercenter]

Could you go a bit into why you think this is the case? I've just not met many people like that, it doesn't really chime with my experiences.

Sure; I'm not really asserting that; my interest is in how to better communicate and persuade others think/act/vote in progressive ways that is where I am coming from fundamentally.

I therefore have no problem in talking about the problematic nature of moralising to others; I don't think it is completely wrong either; it is in fact necessary to an extent; that doesn't mean it cannot either be problematic, that it doesn't exist or can have the opposite effect on what is intended.

Trenter, it seems like you're asserting that there are many people who
a) recycle,
and because of this
b) do not believe that they have any other responsibilities towards the environment,
and also
c) criticise other people for not recycling,
which leads to
d) the criticised people disengaging with environmentalism.

No I don't think recycling is a causative factor in any of this; recycling is an individual behaviour that people can use to moralise and shame others over.  These behaviours quite commonly operate on themes of resources i.e. wealthier, more educated people tend to and have better access to recycling. If we are talking about people looking down on others for not recycling yet have never bothered to understand why poorer communities tend to not recycle or believe that recycling can abate the problematic structural issues of capitalism then yes a I think a lot of people see their recycling as sufficient to "playing their part". 

I don't want people to not recycle and I find it both interesting and depressing that this is a binary choice; you are either pro-recycling or not.  This is not the way I think about it but it speaks to a broader issue of good and bad reductionist thinking that is on trend at the moment.  People certainly criticise others for not recycling and consuming cheap shit; looking at it from a moral level you have good and bad people and moral issues (this is no different from lots of things and is about the role of shame and guilt in behaviour change); looking at it from the position of why do people do this? is going to get you much closer to solutions.  Finally; people have disengaged with a lot of progressive issues; taking this example, recycling is actually in decline but on a broader level again moralising and shaming people is not a a good foundation for behaviour change; yes people disengage because it is lacking in the empathy required to reach others.

[chveik]

never seen anyone argue that recycling was an big ethical act.

that shaming thing is pure nonsense. it reminds me when meat eaters get threatened by the existence of vegetarians.

anyway, absolute garbage thread

[phes]

Is this combined with promises to cut landfill why there's renewed interest in building incinerators like this?

http://www.nessenergy.co.uk/about/about-the-ness-energy-project.aspx

"In 2017, Aberdeen City started to send its residual (non-recyclable) waste by boat to be burned in EfW plants in northern Europe. These plants charge Aberdeen City for this service then sell on the energy produced to their local communities"

In this case it seems to be for efficiency and to create jobs. There has been a huge projected jobs loss coming in North Sea oil and gas, so there will be no shortage of engineers

[bgmnts]

never seen anyone argue that recycling was an big ethical act.

that shaming thing is pure nonsense. it reminds me when meat eaters get threatened by the existence of vegetarians.

anyway, absolute garbage thread

Yeah, don't get it at all. You may be right regarding the vegetarian analogy.

[TrenterPercenter]

never seen anyone argue that recycling was an big ethical act.

that shaming thing is pure nonsense. it reminds me when meat eaters get threatened by the existence of vegetarians.

anyway, absolute garbage thread

Great comment.  Exactly what I'm talking about.

highlighting the economic disparities in being ethical is the same as meat eaters feeling threatened.

Shaming doesn't exist because you think it is nonsense; you've done no research and likely don't even understand the role of shame in child development but you think it's nonsense so that's that.  Do you ever stop and think that I might actually be talking about things that I know a bit about?

No of course you don't; because you just decide that people are good or bad on how much they clap along to well heeled lefty ideals that have long been co-opted by corporations and is basically what the Guardian has been doing for the last 20 years.

[Sebastian Cobb]

"In 2017, Aberdeen City started to send its residual (non-recyclable) waste by boat to be burned in EfW plants in northern Europe. These plants charge Aberdeen City for this service then sell on the energy produced to their local communities"

In this case it seems to be for efficiency and to create jobs. There has been a huge projected jobs loss coming in North Sea oil and gas, so there will be no shortage of engineers

The district heating thing does look good. I don't know how good the scrubbing of an incinerator is. I know in landfill they burn off the methane either by flare or through a generator to convert it to co2 because methane is worse in the short-term.

[Buelligan]

The shame thing is pretty odd.  How does the shaming take place?  How do we winkle out the shameful?  Are there visible recycling karma totalisers hovering over each of our heads, flashing out those to be bullied for non-conformity?  Nope.  No.  None of that exists.

[TrenterPercenter]

The shame thing is pretty odd.  How does the shaming take place?  How do we winkle out the shameful?  Are there visible recycling karma totalisers hovering over each of our heads, flashing out those to be bullied for non-conformity?  Nope.  No.  None of that exists.

Shame and guilt are two very powerful influences in society that operate on a psychological level (they are co-regulators of emotion to be precise) and they have been for thousands of years; there is no reason why recycling would be immune to this.

[chveik]

Great comment.  Exactly what I'm talking about.

highlighting the economic disparities in being ethical is the same as meat eaters feeling threatened.

Shaming doesn't exist because you think it is nonsense; you've done no research and likely don't even understand the role of shame in child development but you think it's nonsense so that's that.  Do you ever stop and think that I might actually be talking about things that I know a bit about?

No of course you don't; because you just decide that people are good or bad on how much they clap along to well heeled lefty ideals that have long been co-opted by corporations and is basically what the Guardian has been doing for the last 20 years.

pathetic. i know shame exists, cheers, it's just no use in that particular argument. you're stuck in a 'state of the left' contrarian mode, it's not healthy.

[Buelligan]

Shame and guilt are two very powerful influences in society that operate on a psychological level (they are co-regulators of emotion to be precise) and they have been for thousands of years; there is no reason why recycling would be immune to this.

Are you saying that people shouldn't feel bad about their own behaviour if they elect to destroy a shared existentially important public space (our planet)?

Where does socialism fit in with that?

[TrenterPercenter]

pathetic. i know shame exists, cheers, it's just no use in that particular argument. you're stuck in a 'state of the left' contrarian mode, it's not healthy.

Nope; I am very pro-left thank you very much I don't think the wave of reductionist thinking (that isn't anything new) is helpful.  This will be more and more obvious as it is co-opted more and more.

You seem to very narrowly focused on shame and recycling; when I clearly said on a "broader level" when talking about shame. 

[Buelligan]

This thread is about recycling.  You said -

Shame and guilt are two very powerful influences in society that operate on a psychological level (they are co-regulators of emotion to be precise) and they have been for thousands of years; there is no reason why recycling would be immune to this.

[TrenterPercenter]

Are you saying that people shouldn't feel bad about their own behaviour if they elect to destroy a shared existentially important public space (our planet)?

Where does socialism fit in with that?

Not at all; it more a question of what is effective.  There are a selection of tools that can be used in regards to persuasion; shame is problematic and is really the low hanging fruit of techniques (because it is a core emotion related to disgust that we learn as children; we also learn to mitigate this and find ways to switch it off).


Socialism is not about shaming or making people feel guilty.

[TrenterPercenter]

This thread is about recycling.  You said -

Yes?

Why would recycling be immune to it?