Author Topic: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?  (Read 1359 times)

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2021, 04:30:48 PM »
Yes?

Why would recycling be immune to it?

Do you even read what you write?

You seem to very narrowly focused on shame and recycling; when I clearly said on a "broader level" when talking about shame.


Not at all; it more a question of what is effective.  There are a selection of tools that can be used in regards to persuasion; shame is problematic and is really the low hanging fruit of techniques (because it is a core emotion related to disgust that we learn as children; we also learn to mitigate this and find ways to switch it off).


Socialism is not about shaming or making people feel guilty.

The only person bringing shame into the discussion is YOU.  Literally no one else.

Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2021, 04:33:23 PM »
we should change Recycling to Roncycling to get more blokes into it

Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2021, 04:43:06 PM »
My MIL doesn't recycle. She doesn't want the bins outside the front of her house, she thinks it looks bad. She also reads the Daily Mail and would know of many news stories that prove recycling to be bullshit, like how it all ends up in landfill.

In terms of social pressure to recycle making people less likely to do it, I remember a few years ago it emerging that manly macho men don't recycle because they're afraid it will make strangers think they're homosexual. This is 100% a factor in 'anti-vegan activism' too.

TrenterPercenter

  • Rock the CABLADs
Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2021, 04:43:27 PM »
I don't want people to not recycle and I find it both interesting and depressing that this is a binary choice; you are either pro-recycling or not.  This is not the way I think about it but it speaks to a broader issue of good and bad reductionist thinking that is on trend at the moment.  People certainly criticise others for not recycling and consuming cheap shit; looking at it from a moral level you have good and bad people and moral issues (this is no different from lots of things and is about the role of shame and guilt in behaviour change); looking at it from the position of why do people do this? is going to get you much closer to solutions.  Finally; people have disengaged with a lot of progressive issues; taking this example, recycling is actually in decline but on a broader level again moralising and shaming people is not a a good foundation for behaviour change; yes people disengage because it is lacking in the empathy required to reach others.

And

Shame and guilt are two very powerful influences in society that operate on a psychological level (they are co-regulators of emotion to be precise) and they have been for thousands of years; there is no reason why recycling would be immune to this.

I'm not sure what you are not getting.  I said Chveik was narrowly focusing on shame in regards to recycling when I was placing it in a broader sense (because a poster asked me to explain my thoughts on it); shame is out there and of course recycling or people feeling ashamed for not recycling as much as they should exists. 

Not sure why that is controversial or why anyone would feel threatened by it being said.

Buelligan

  • STOP being afraid
Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #64 on: April 04, 2021, 04:50:05 PM »
I don't feel threatened by it.  I simply think that bandying around loosely-formed thoughts and brain farts about shaming people who don't recycle - without any explanation as to how that mechanism operates - is needlessly contrarian.   Following it up with a statement that you're more experienced on the subject of shame and shaming people is bad, so people who don't accept that should be ashamed is fairly provocative too.

bgmnts

  • Depressed to the point of poisonous toxicity.
Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #65 on: April 04, 2021, 04:50:58 PM »
Yeah I'm so confused by this opinion.

BlodwynPig

  • The Last Living Member of COVID-20
Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2021, 04:52:51 PM »
Great comment.  Exactly what I'm talking about.

highlighting the economic disparities in being ethical is the same as meat eaters feeling threatened.

Shaming doesn't exist because you think it is nonsense; you've done no research and likely don't even understand the role of shame in child development but you think it's nonsense so that's that.  Do you ever stop and think that I might actually be talking about things that I know a bit about?

No of course you don't; because you just decide that people are good or bad on how much they clap along to well heeled lefty ideals that have long been co-opted by corporations and is basically what the Guardian has been doing for the last 20 years.

Have you got a Trenter digest to subscribe to? (not a dig, just I'd really like to read what you write, but there is sooooo much, none of it recycled, of course).

Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2021, 04:54:18 PM »
I keep glass jars to refill for herbs/spices/lentils/rice, and beer bottles for home brew

Does that sort of re-use work for you, Seb? How long have you been doing it?

I'm asking because we're trying to go Zero Waste at home. I've got some good-quality jars from Ikea with a rubber seal in which I keep spices etc. But when I've tried to reuse old commercial jars, their contents are eventually affected by moisture. I'd concluded that the rubber seal was all-important and gave up on that particular re-use front. But it deffo works for you, yeah? Lemme know because I'll try it again.

Zero Waste is some good shit, btw. Several shops have opened within walking distance of my flat and it's a pleasure to get those refills.

To add fuel to the discussion of the "is recycling tokenistic?" problem (i.e. that people think they're doing their bit when they're barely doing anything), I must confess that I don't currently count recycling as waste. What I'm trying to eradicate at the moment is my non-recyclable waste. This is a temporary measure, part of the phased approach[1] to reaching true Zero waste. But I do wonder if my psychology/delusion here is a smidge of evidence towards the idea that some people actually think recycling is enough to justify their other less-green practices?
 1. minimise waste in favour of recycling, minimise recycling in favour of re-use, and minimise re-use in favour of reduction/refusal.

TrenterPercenter

  • Rock the CABLADs
Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #68 on: April 04, 2021, 05:03:02 PM »
I don't feel threatened by it.  I simply think that bandying around loosely-formed thoughts and brain farts about shaming people who don't recycle - without any explanation as to how that mechanism operates - is needlessly contrarian.   Following it up with a statement that you're more experienced on the subject of shame and shaming people is bad, so people who don't accept that should be ashamed is fairly provocative too.

Why is it anymore loosely formed than anyone elses opinion?  Is it not just the case that you, Chveik and bgnmts as per usual just like to go in on me for no good reason.  Both the comments I've just posted are completely reasonable they aren't really controversial and the sprang from another poster that asked me to expand on my thinking.

I'm saying little more than recycling can give some people the illusion that they are doing enough; it's basically what Monbiot says and that shame and guilt are techniques that are often used to elicit behaviour change and this is limited.

I've read quite a lot of stuff regarding shame and guilt because it is obviously quite pertinent to stigma which affects people with mental health conditions.  Sorry again if this is threatening to you for some reason.

Here is a nice article that isn't written by me you might want to engage with.   It makes the case that shame is bad whilst guilt is good.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/love-and-sex-in-the-digital-age/201401/guilt-good-shame-bad

This is about behaviour change; and presumably we want more people carrying out progressive behaviours so it shouldn't be an issue to consider it.

Sebastian Cobb

  • bad opinion haver
Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #69 on: April 04, 2021, 05:05:56 PM »
Does that sort of re-use work for you, Seb? How long have you been doing it?

I'm asking because we're trying to go Zero Waste at home. I've got some good-quality jars from Ikea with a rubber seal in which I keep spices etc. But when I've tried to reuse old commercial jars, their contents are eventually affected by moisture. I'd concluded that the rubber seal was all-important and gave up on that particular re-use front. But it deffo works for you, yeah? Lemme know because I'll try it again.

Zero Waste is some good shit, btw. Several shops have opened within walking distance of my flat and it's a pleasure to get those refills.

To add fuel to the discussion of the "is recycling tokenistic?" problem (i.e. that people think they're doing their bit when they're barely doing anything), I must confess that I don't currently count recycling as waste. What I'm trying to eradicate at the moment is my non-recyclable waste. This is a temporary measure, part of the phased approach[1] to reaching true Zero waste. But I do wonder if my psychology/delusion here is a smidge of evidence towards the idea that some people actually think recycling is enough to justify their other less-green practices?
 1. minimise waste in favour of recycling, minimise recycling in favour of re-use, and minimise re-use in favour of reduction/refusal.

It's worked ok for me, I keep the majority of my spices in a masala dabba, but put extra ones in small jars, and use big 900ml saurkraut jars for things like rice, dried pulses etc.

I refill from supermarkets and spice shops though. There is a zero waste place that's opened up during lockdown but I've not been. I think they're probably too much of a faff for general adoption and finding more environmentally friendly (biodegradable) packaging is probably a better long-term solution. Not least because for many people delivery is more environmentally friendly than driving to supermarkets. I can't say the prospect of refilling anything excites me at all, whether necessary or not, it strikes me as a chore.

TrenterPercenter

  • Rock the CABLADs
Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2021, 05:11:45 PM »
Have you got a Trenter digest to subscribe to? (not a dig, just I'd really like to read what you write, but there is sooooo much, none of it recycled, of course).

I'm afraid not.  I am just a poster on forum; doing what posters do; making posts.  No blog or digest I'm really not that narcissistic (despite what some people would like to believe).

Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2021, 05:14:50 PM »
It's worked ok for me, I keep the majority of my spices in a masala dabba, but put extra ones in small jars, and use big 900ml saurkraut jars for things like rice, dried pulses etc.

Cool. Cheers.

I refill from supermarkets and spice shops though. There is a zero waste place that's opened up during lockdown but I've not been. I think they're probably too much of a faff for general adoption and finding more environmentally friendly (biodegradable) packaging is probably a better long-term solution. Not least because for many people delivery is more environmentally friendly than driving to supermarkets. I can't say the prospect of refilling anything excites me at all, whether necessary or not, it strikes me as a chore.

Well, no packaging is better than even biodegradable packaging. And I walk, I don't drive anywhere. But people's situations are different, of course.

I would't say the refilling process "excites me" (and certainly not sexually, ha! haha! ha!) but the shop is a pleasant, well-organised place with some nice chatty people united in a cause. The actual refilling, especially of herbs and spices, involves nice colours and smells. A chore I suppose, yeah, but a pleasant one.

Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2021, 05:59:30 PM »

Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2021, 10:30:06 PM »
I recycle because I buy things that come in cardboard boxes, plastic bottles etc. that are recyclable. I can't grow my own food, before anyone asks. Having chronic pain makes gardening hard and I know fuck all about it anyway. It is easier and more convenient for me to buy stuff. That's it. No, it's not virtuous. But it's true.

What do I even do with old shampoo bottles? Where do I get shampoo refills?


katzenjammer

  • Now we know...
Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #75 on: April 05, 2021, 09:26:26 AM »
Here's a depressing take on plastic recycling I came across a while ago. 

Quote
The industry's awareness that recycling wouldn't keep plastic out of landfills and the environment dates to the program's earliest days, we found. "There is serious doubt that [recycling plastic] can ever be made viable on an economic basis," one industry insider wrote in a 1974 speech.

Yet the industry spent millions telling people to recycle, because, as one former top industry insider told NPR, selling recycling sold plastic, even if it wasn't true.

"If the public thinks that recycling is working, then they are not going to be as concerned about the environment,"
.
.
"The feeling was the plastics industry was under fire — we got to do what it takes to take the heat off, because we want to continue to make plastic products,"
.
.
what he saw was an industry that didn't want recycling to work. Because if the job is to sell as much oil as you possibly can, any amount of recycled plastic is competition.

"You know, they were not interested in putting any real money or effort into recycling because they wanted to sell virgin material,"
.
.
Analysts now expect plastic production to triple by 2050.


Blue Jam

  • Last of the great avuncular magicians
Re: (split topic) Recycling: helpful or a harmful distraction?
« Reply #76 on: April 05, 2021, 09:39:28 AM »
I recycle partly because our local council have made it very easy and it'd just be lazy not to. Big communal bins out on the street, one bin for glass, one for mixed recyclables, piece of piss. Then again I do worry that those "mixed recyclables" aren't all separated and that a good proportion probably still ends up in landfill. It's hard not to feel like it's all a bit futile.

I make a big deal out of clothes recycling because that one really is very simple- clothes can be shredded and used to pad out car doors etc, and it's either that or landfill. And they do take up a lot of space, better to shred' em.

I don't donate to charity shops much as I tend to wear clothes until they're too worn to resell, but buying from charity shops is good too, a way you can do a little bit of recycling instead of buying new stuff.

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