Author Topic: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021  (Read 3147 times)

Buelligan

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #60 on: April 07, 2021, 09:28:45 PM »
I think no one can be sure of what will happen but many people who were keen on Labour in the past no longer feel that way. 

I think a fair number of people feel that each day Starmer continues leading the party, the reasons for supporting it disappear.  We're at a point now where CLPs cannot meet.  They can't discuss subjects banned by the party leadership.  The leadership and regions dictate candidates and people can be summarily purged without right of reply.  We've had Labour policy decisions to the right of the tories.  And abstained in ways that would shame any decent human being, to allow rape, torture and murder - The Labour Party abstaining on that.

Virtually every promise made by Starmer to those members that elected him has been abandoned or evaded and the party spends its time searching for heretics, rather than opposing the government (when Keith promised to bring unity, at least).  Polling is falling through the floor and lifelong members are leaving the party with the intention, not just of leaving but of opposing Labour. 

If you think that's OK, then you think it's OK.  I think the number of people who agree with you is diminishing with every passing hour.

TrenterPercenter

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #61 on: April 07, 2021, 09:59:21 PM »
I do listen to Novara also so a lot of this is wasted on me.

As mentioned that wasn't the question was it; I don't support Starmer and I never have; i'm just not so fixated and as constantly angry as you like you keep yourself so I have enough minerals to look at the bigger; more complicated picture sometimes; and even ask scary questions like what will happen post-Starmer I wonder?  These are just thoughts it is not a dangerous thing to do to think about these things.

Buelligan

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #62 on: April 08, 2021, 06:00:46 AM »
I'm not writing this for you, it's for the general discussion.  It's not important to me what you or any individual believes, it's important, for each individual, to express, to share, their ideas on Labour and Starmer (if that's the subject under discussion). 

I can't even be bothered to address the idea that I like to keep myself constantly angry - you have no idea what I like and this is not about me, or you, it's about Labour and Starmer and what each of us thinks is best for everyone. 

The idea that people should remain with an abusive or damaging present for fear that the unknown future may be worse, is an old one, one that many of us learned to step beyond years ago, that's why the Labour Party was made.  People should never be trapped in a damaging present by their unknown and unproved fears whilst there is a chance their lives can be improved.  IMO, Labour, now, is not improving life for anyone, except its select elite and the masters it serves.  That is simply not what Labour is about. 

NoSleep

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #63 on: April 08, 2021, 08:14:09 AM »
lose = to lose something you already have (even if you don't realise it)

Lose = to have already lost something you had. There's nothing left to lose.

Quote
gain = to gain something you don't already have

We're talking about regaining ground, possibly just seeing if that ground can be regained. Of course the whole world and the Labour right will come down hard against this, nothing less is expected. But it can never be a loss to know who your enemies are (looking at slimebag Kieth here, too).

Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2021, 09:46:06 AM »
Living in Manchester, the city council is something like 99% Labour, and I'm not sure that'll change much. I'm surprised the Lib Dems haven't made more of an effort in my area (which has shown a tendency to swing to them when feelings towards Labour turn sour, like post-Iraq invasion) but all I've had is one leaflet. Andy Burnham will presumably retain his Mayor of Greater Manchester gig too.

In conclusion - not sure whether I'll bother walking 50 yards up the road to vote.

bgmnts

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #65 on: April 08, 2021, 11:36:15 AM »
This was the last sentence in the little Vote for Wales Plaid leaflet:

Quote
Labour and Green can give their second vote to Plaid Cymru to help reduce the number of Tories in the Senedd

Fucking loved that and I just wish all the good parties could form and fucking cunt the tories off.

TrenterPercenter

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #66 on: April 08, 2021, 12:57:30 PM »
I'm not writing this for you, it's for the general discussion.  It's not important to me what you or any individual believes, it's important, for each individual, to express, to share, their ideas on Labour and Starmer (if that's the subject under discussion).
Ah sorry it's just you sent a few posts bolding my name so it just seemed like you might have been talking to me; I'll try and remember in future this bizarre behaviour.  I think the fact that it is not important to you what other people think might be a bit problematic and conflict with the last part of the same sentence where you say it is important for people to express their ideas on Labour and Starmer.

Can I ask; do you think you create an environment that promotes individuals to express and share their ideas on Labour and Starmer; whatever they might be?

Quote
The idea that people should remain with an abusive or damaging present for fear that the unknown future may be worse, is an old one, one that many of us learned to step beyond years ago, that's why the Labour Party was made. People should never be trapped in a damaging present by their unknown and unproved fears whilst there is a chance their lives can be improved.
Well quite and the controlling behaviours people employ to decide what a thing is and what any options might be is also an old one; one used by manipulators and abusive individuals.  Labour cannot accurately be spoken about in such absolutist terms it is neither abusive or damaging in all senses to all people; it isn't a person[1]; it's impact and the impact of its demise is relative to what else is available at anytime; as I mentioned in one potentially likely scenario that it is interpreted that the public prefers the Tories and more rightwing policies.

Of course and it's all nice rhetoric; but what lives will you be improving? how and by what means? what are the potential consequences in the short-term and long-term? What problems might occur in this plan? and how have these been mitigated? That is all I'm asking; you seem to be saying things cannot get worse; and any future is better than the current one without a reasonable explanation; it's just rhetoric dependent on using superlatives; it's what despots do; and I'm sure you'll agree as you seem to know so much about these things it is an old one

Quote
IMO, Labour, now, is not improving life for anyone, except its select elite and the masters it serves.  That is simply not what Labour is about.
Labour are not in power; no where near power in fact and that is actually down to Corbyn's Labour losing the last election badly; this is just one element however; the idea that no Labour council or Labour Party activities anywhere is improving anyones life is an exaggeration on a par with those frothing at mouth and thinking Corbyn is responsible for every ill in the country; its more complicated than this childish view on the world and how local councils and services operate.

I know what would a great idea let's put Tories in all the councils so they can control the budgets, direct the resources and influence the local populations for the next 4 years what could go wrong? and whose life could not be improved by that?
 1. and even if it was this would still be reductionist

ZoyzaSorris

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #67 on: April 08, 2021, 12:59:55 PM »
Exhausting. And sad.

TrenterPercenter

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #68 on: April 08, 2021, 01:15:51 PM »
Lose = to have already lost something you had. There's nothing left to lose.

Yes this isn't true from what I can see.

99.9% of people that ever say the words "I have nothing else to lose" are wrong; sure you might think and feel it but how accurate that is going to be how much attention you have paid to what you have.

Also you should really consider loss in this context on an interval scale and not ratio; you can have minus loses here I'm afraid as loss is a movable feast over time.  Again you'll only know this is you fairly and accurately (as much as you can with these things) understand what you already have.

I would say; losing any of the 20 leftwing MPs at the next election would be a loss for example.

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #69 on: April 08, 2021, 01:19:05 PM »
Ultimately, local government gets a lot of the blame locally regardless of who is in power in Westminster.

So, if the Tories cut local government funding by 17%, and a Labour Council makes those cuts, carries out the outsourcing, raises council tax, reduces provisions even if it is solely to keep everyone's heads above water, they will end up being blamed by many and in areas that are Labour til I Die, eventually disillusionment sets in and a desire for alternatives.

I agree that some Labour councils have carried out damage limitation austerity, some have been creative like Preston, but others have carried out neoliberalism as fervently as any Tory council and would sell their souls for a glimpse of dodgy private money.

TrenterPercenter

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #70 on: April 08, 2021, 01:20:52 PM »
Exhausting. And sad.

Great contribution personalised contribution as always.

TrenterPercenter

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #71 on: April 08, 2021, 01:26:20 PM »
Ultimately, local government gets a lot of the blame locally regardless of who is in power in Westminster.

So, if the Tories cut local government funding by 17%, and a Labour Council makes those cuts, carries out the outsourcing, raises council tax, reduces provisions even if it is solely to keep everyone's heads above water, they will end up being blamed by many and in areas that are Labour til I Die, eventually disillusionment sets in and a desire for alternatives.

I agree that some Labour councils have carried out damage limitation austerity, some have been creative like Preston, but others have carried out neoliberalism as fervently as any Tory council and would sell their souls for a glimpse of dodgy private money.

I agree; but we say disillusionment sets in as if it is a forgone conclusion and that other damage, rightwing infrastructure and voter suppression is not created in the meantime.

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #72 on: April 08, 2021, 01:44:44 PM »
I don't see the purpose of treating existing Labour seats as a defensive shield to prevent something worse. A shield doesn't set about weakening itself, it doesn't invite enemies inside, it doesn't actively harm the people it is set up to protect.

That some of Labour undoubtedly serves that purpose very well is irrelevant to anyone who draws the conclusion that Labour in its current form has problems so fundamental to serving its purpose that it can never achieve even the minimum defensive targets you cite as a reason to keep supporting them.

TrenterPercenter

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #73 on: April 08, 2021, 02:12:13 PM »
I don't see the purpose of treating existing Labour seats as a defensive shield to prevent something worse. A shield doesn't set about weakening itself, it doesn't invite enemies inside, it doesn't actively harm the people it is set up to protect.

We are back to rhetoric and metaphors here; I don't perceive Labour as a "shield" and a collectively conscious one at that which has decided to set about weakening itself etc...

I don't disagree with the thrust of it though btw.

Seems obvious to the me Starmers back of the fag packet electoral strategy was to make Labour appear more rightwing; get those that stopped listening to it at the last election listening to it again; grab a few wets along the way, then come out with a few big leftwing policies that will sit contradictorily to some of the other stuff, but leftwingers would fall inline for anyway.  I think that probably is the plan still; however he is a poor tactician and didn't realise that there were certain things that were no go areas for him (Corbyn being the obvious one) he is less rightwing sleeper and more just sleepy; he is completely the wrong type of adult in the room for the time, dreary and dull.  Going on about how evil and cunning he is really does make him out to be more interesting than he should be.  I still think Labours best bet is a leftwing celebrity like Michael Sheen that just acts the role of PM and lets everyone else get on with doing the policies.

When we put bruised egos aside (and I very much include myself in that) if we were at election time and I had the promise of two big formative leftwing policies and had to ignore a load of centrist stuff vs Johnson and nothing but more misery then I'm voting for Kieth every fucking time. 

That is his hope; of course getting rid of him in ample time to get someone else in that might do a better job is very appealing I'm just asking will this happen and has what the leftwing occupied itself with over the last two years made this more possible? We got as far as being very angry at Starmer, expending a forests worth of carbon in spicy Twitter memes; and telling everyone that doesn't agree to FUCK OFF; but what is there beyond this?

George Oscar Bluth II

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #74 on: April 08, 2021, 04:13:26 PM »
Genuine eye opener about Brian Rose here, yikes: https://unherd.com/2021/04/could-brian-rose-be-londons-next-mayor/

Living in Manchester, the city council is something like 99% Labour, and I'm not sure that'll change much. I'm surprised the Lib Dems haven't made more of an effort in my area (which has shown a tendency to swing to them when feelings towards Labour turn sour, like post-Iraq invasion) but all I've had is one leaflet. Andy Burnham will presumably retain his Mayor of Greater Manchester gig too.

In conclusion - not sure whether I'll bother walking 50 yards up the road to vote.

Manchester City Council is absolutely absurd. We really, really need PR of some kind in council elections, like they have in Scotland. One party states are bad, whoever the party is. And Labour led councils in particular seem to be really good at squashing local independent groups, which Tory-dominated councils all seem to have and at least have to deal with.

If you live in a Tory dominated area it is often a good idea to look up who your local independents are and what they think because they generally have a pretty decent chance of being elected compared to a Labour/LD candidate. And maybe they might not be cunts![1]

Seems obvious to the me Starmers back of the fag packet electoral strategy was to make Labour appear more rightwing; get those that stopped listening to it at the last election listening to it again; grab a few wets along the way, then come out with a few big leftwing policies that will sit contradictorily to some of the other stuff, but leftwingers would fall inline for anyway.  I think that probably is the plan still

Yeah I actually think this is a decent bit of analysis tbh. I think the plan is look a bit rightwing/patriotic for branding purposes, have a big and noticeable fight with Jeremy Corbyn, wait for the Tories to fuck up and maybe sneak in in a minority in 2023/24. I realise people here hate the fact that the "fight with Jeremy Corbyn" also looks and feels like (and in some cases actually is) "fight with you personally" and the public pronouncements of the Labour Party don't exactly make my heart sing, but I genuinely do think when it comes down to it the next manifesto will be pretty good, 2017 style stuff.

There was also a YouGov poll today that had something like 60% of the membership happy with Starmer which is pretty much what he got in the election last year. Party's changed post-Corbyn or maybe people in the Labour Party generally like whoever their leader is. See also: the 2016 leadership election.
 1. Probably will be though

Fambo Number Mive

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #75 on: April 08, 2021, 04:20:26 PM »
I wonder if some people in Labour would select Yes even if they weren't happy with Starmer as they were worried about support for Labour as a whole if lots of people said No.

I just can't imagine that 60% of the Labour Party members polled were really happy with Keith as leader, surely he only appeals to establishment journalists and MPs on the right of the party.

Surely even those on the right of the party who would have voted for Healey in the 1981 deputy leadership contest, Liz Kendall in the 2015 leadership contest and Lisa Nandy in the 2020 leadership contest aren't content with having a leader who seems bent on making sure Labour will never win power again or ever trouble any of the elite.

Old Nehamkin

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #76 on: April 08, 2021, 04:28:46 PM »
I wonder if some people in Labour would select Yes even if they weren't happy with Starmer as they were worried about support for Labour as a whole if lots of people said No.

I just can't imagine that 60% of the Labour Party members polled were really happy with Keith as leader, surely he only appeals to establishment journalists and MPs on the right of the party.

I may have my figures wrong but hasn't it been reported that the overall Labour membership has dropped by something like 10-20% since Starmer became leader?

George Oscar Bluth II

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #77 on: April 08, 2021, 04:29:29 PM »
I think people forget, and this applies to anti-Corbyn people in 2016 too, that most Labour members aren't online all the time thinking and talking about politics. Most members aren't looking constantly at the polls. Most of the stuff everyone on here froths about won't be noticed by most members. You have to wait for the really big errors. Unfortunately for the Labour Party the big errors that get noticed are, basically, losing a general election.

I may have my figures wrong but hasn't it been reported that the Labour membership as a whole has dropped by something like 10-20% since Starmer became leader?

Also this, there'll have been a churn. Anti-Corbynites in, pro-Corbynites out.

Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #78 on: April 08, 2021, 04:45:00 PM »
Centrists in, socialists out.

TrenterPercenter

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #79 on: April 08, 2021, 05:07:09 PM »
Who would have thought telling all the leftwingers to leave the party and leftwingers that remained that they were complicit scum could have caused any problems. It's a real mystery.

Buelligan

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #80 on: April 08, 2021, 05:23:03 PM »
Ah sorry it's just you sent a few posts bolding my name so it just seemed like you might have been talking to me; I'll try and remember in future this bizarre behaviour.  I think the fact that it is not important to you what other people think might be a bit problematic and conflict with the last part of the same sentence where you say it is important for people to express their ideas on Labour and Starmer.

Can I ask; do you think you create an environment that promotes individuals to express and share their ideas on Labour and Starmer; whatever they might be?
Well quite and the controlling behaviours people employ to decide what a thing is and what any options might be is also an old one; one used by manipulators and abusive individuals.  Labour cannot accurately be spoken about in such absolutist terms it is neither abusive or damaging in all senses to all people; it isn't a person[1]; it's impact and the impact of its demise is relative to what else is available at anytime; as I mentioned in one potentially likely scenario that it is interpreted that the public prefers the Tories and more rightwing policies.

Of course and it's all nice rhetoric; but what lives will you be improving? how and by what means? what are the potential consequences in the short-term and long-term? What problems might occur in this plan? and how have these been mitigated? That is all I'm asking; you seem to be saying things cannot get worse; and any future is better than the current one without a reasonable explanation; it's just rhetoric dependent on using superlatives; it's what despots do; and I'm sure you'll agree as you seem to know so much about these things it is an old one
Labour are not in power; no where near power in fact and that is actually down to Corbyn's Labour losing the last election badly; this is just one element however; the idea that no Labour council or Labour Party activities anywhere is improving anyones life is an exaggeration on a par with those frothing at mouth and thinking Corbyn is responsible for every ill in the country; its more complicated than this childish view on the world and how local councils and services operate.

I know what would a great idea let's put Tories in all the councils so they can control the budgets, direct the resources and influence the local populations for the next 4 years what could go wrong? and whose life could not be improved by that?
 1. and even if it was this would still be reductionist

Contrarian bizarre man trying to pick a fight whenever possible.  If you want a fight with me, just say so, all this dancing about is boring and it shits up the threads.

ETA - BTW, I always bold the name of anyone I name in a thread, lots of other people do it here too.   Nothing special about it.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 05:34:09 PM by Buelligan »

George Oscar Bluth II

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #81 on: April 08, 2021, 05:41:31 PM »
Centrists in, socialists out.

Who would have thought telling all the leftwingers to leave the party and leftwingers that remained that they were complicit scum could have caused any problems. It's a real mystery.

Please don't be under the impression that this matters either to the public or electorally. The polls aren't the way they are because Labour are refusing to shout about socialism.

TrenterPercenter

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #82 on: April 08, 2021, 06:19:22 PM »
ETA - BTW, I always bold the name of anyone I name in a thread, lots of other people do it here too.   Nothing special about it.

What do you think there is to lose Trenter?

As always; people can decide whether your version of events stacks up.

greencalx

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #83 on: April 08, 2021, 06:21:43 PM »
If the 2024 (or, as has been rumoured, 2023) manifesto is anything like ‘17 I’ll eat my pants.

Old Nehamkin

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #84 on: April 08, 2021, 06:29:35 PM »
If the 2024 (or, as has been rumoured, 2023) manifesto is anything like ‘17 I’ll eat my pants.

To be fair GOB might have been referring to the 2017 Tory manifesto.

TrenterPercenter

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #85 on: April 08, 2021, 06:30:36 PM »
Please don't be under the impression that this matters either to the public or electorally. The polls aren't the way they are because Labour are refusing to shout about socialism.

I'm not under that impression; leftwingers leaving the party just makes it harder for internal leftwing politics to secure mandates in the party.  I thought this would have been obvious but here we are; even Novara were always tantrically dancing around this event horizon; bringing the rage to the boil and then quickly throwing a yeah but don't leave the party as it's obviously not a good move to consent democratic power to your rivals.

Dealing with the electorate outside of party is a whole other thing that is not going well either for lots of reasons.

Fambo Number Mive

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #86 on: April 08, 2021, 06:31:23 PM »
If the 2024 (or, as has been rumoured, 2023) manifesto is anything like ‘17 I’ll eat my pants.

Either it'll be out Torying the Tories or the policies will be designed to make sure no one votes for them. A ban on wanking and a farting tax, perhaps. When the Labour vote share falls below 10%, Keith will say "My work is done".

pigamus

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #87 on: April 08, 2021, 06:37:41 PM »
As always; people can decide whether your version of events stacks up.

Well people do put names in bold. It’s a thing.

TrenterPercenter

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #88 on: April 08, 2021, 06:59:25 PM »
Well people do put names in bold. It’s a thing.

Errr yes? they do....?

Are you suggesting that the post below isn't addressed to me; a post that has my name in bold and posits a question relating to my post that is above it. 

Do you think it mere coincidence pigamus?.  The mind boggles.

What do you think there is to lose Trenter?

Just for clarity I'm not anti-bolding names incase anyone has started making any placards already.

pigamus

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Re: The "Who Should I Vote For" Thread, 2021
« Reply #89 on: April 08, 2021, 07:17:19 PM »
Well I’m clearly not completely following what’s going on so I’ll shut up now.

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