LOKI

[touchingcloth]

I feel like those diagrams deliberately make it seem more complicated than it is - they make out there's a massive load of different new timelines, when the point is surely meant to be the events all still happen in the one timeline- the Avengers pop back and nick the stones, then return them to the same moment, keeping everything stable. All the different stone collections don't happen in separate timelines, just different points in the same one. There's no Steve Rogers Prime and Alt, it's one guy living one life but travelling back in time to live out the last hslf of it. I'm assuming this show will ultimately try and resolve the hole left by Loki disappearing, so everything happened exactly as it always did.

I think the alternative timeline thing is based on the idea that time always branches when the stones are stolen or people go back in time for whatever purpose. With the first steal of the time heist where Steve whispers a "hail Hydra" and casually walks off with the stone, there's not really a meaningful sense in which he can return that stone and restore the "correct" timeline (go back in disguise and somehow discourage them from handing the stone over? Randomly deposit the stone back in their coffee area after Steve walks off with it?) so I think the idea is that the timeline where Steve took the stone always exists in some form (it has to have happened in the past for the events at the end of Endgame to take place), but he goes back in time to unfuck the correct one. But ultimately it makes no bloody sense because

[colacentral]

The Thanos example does make sense with the logic they set out initially, because it means that the time he came from is a parallel universe where Thanos disappeared one day.

It doesn't make sense with Captain America because he can't exist in that universe once he goes back. Neither does the idea of "resetting" the time lines by putting the stones back, but I think that can be overlooked.*

Thinking about it now, I reckon that the glaring holes in the Endgame logic are there because Kevin Feige wanted them to fit with what they're doing in Loki, ie they can't follow what they call "Back to the Future" rules for plot reasons, but they also had to go to great pains to imply there's only one time line so they could explore this sacred timeline business in Loki. They ended up with an awkward contradictory mish mash of ideas as a result.

* I also prefer to think of the stone resetting as more that they don't want to be cunty by stealing an infinity stone from another time line and then just being like, "we'll leave you lot in that universe to deal with the ramifications of that, ta," rather than the new time line merging back into the main one, which realistically is what they actually meant, but I think is fucking stupid.

[Dr Rock]

I think if Loki is gone from the point he disappears with the Tesseract in Endgame, so many things are going to be different, is the Tesseract on Asgard during Ragnorok, if Loki doesn't steal it? Then when it goes Kabloowie, can Thanos find it in the middle of space, possibly shooting away a million miles a second? Does he have sensors to find it? Or does it stay on Earth when Cap puts it back? Wouldn't they would make the same decision that its safer on Asgard? Although they don't know where Loki is anymore. Thor's mum doesn't die. Loki doesn't imprison Odin on Earth, so maybe with Odin still alive Thanos doesn't try to wipe out half the universe. In which case The Avengers don't go back in time, and Loki doesn't become a variant.

[stonkers]

* I also prefer to think of the stone resetting as more that they don't want to be cunty by stealing an infinity stone from another time line and then just being like, "we'll leave you lot in that universe to deal with the ramifications of that, ta," rather than the new time line merging back into the main one, which realistically is what they actually meant, but I think is fucking stupid.

Wait, I thought was that what the scene with Hulk talking to Tilda Swinton was all about, that removing an infinity stone from a timeline totally fucks it up. So Captain America had to go back and put all the stones back to stop those timelines becoming diasters, not to restore one timeline. Which makes no sense with him then turning up as auld Cap in the main timeline, but does allow for the 2014 versions of Thanos and Neubla getting bumped off in 2023.

[colacentral]

Wait, I thought was that what the scene with Hulk talking to Tilda Swinton was all about, that removing an infinity stone from a timeline totally fucks it up. So Captain America had to go back and put all the stones back to stop those timelines becoming diasters, not to restore one timeline. Which makes no sense with him then turning up as auld Cap in the main timeline, but does allow for the 2014 versions of Thanos and Neubla getting bumped off in 2023.

Yeah, but I think the main reason they wrote the scene was to cover their bases regarding there being only one time line, eg "this time travel we've just established implies that time travel will create multiple parallel universes, but here's Tilda Swinton to explain that actually it's still one time line really." Like I said, I think in hindsight, they only did that to explain why the Loki series has a "Sacred Timeline".

[mothman]

Going back 3-4 years, I think my (everyone's?) assumption was that Endgame would mostly be them trying to get the stones from Thanos to undo the Snap. But then we started seeing indications from filming that time travel was involved, so maybe that was going to be the last-ditch chance to win the day.

But of course they couldn't just get the stones, because Thanos destroyed them to forestall just such an attempt. And they couldn't just go back and change time, that would be too easy. So the whole "borrow the stones from the past, bring them forward, use them, put them back, timeline remains unaltered" plot line is developed. Again, simplicity, even going so far as to have them say they can't just BTTF their way out of it.

The problem is, they then proceed to undercut that at every turn. Barely one of the retrievals go to plan. And all have ramifications that make no sense. As pointed out above, there is no way to replace the Tesseract to the original intended borrowing point. Loki escapes from 2012. He cannot be a variant according to the logic of the film. The only way to resolve that is to ultimately have someone wipe his memory and return him and the Tesseract to Thor's custody, so it all becomes this little, unmentioned, offscreen escape/adventure that happens between two scenes (like the third Bourne film is). Presumably Steve goes back in time and spends his life with Peggy Carter, but nobody knows about it (he, what, hides under the bed whenever people come round?) And that still doesn't explain where the 2014 Thanos comes from...

[Dr Rock]

The only way to resolve that is to ultimately have someone wipe his memory and return him

This would be the simplest and most effective way of making sure things happen as they are supposed to, and it would seem like something the Time Lizards could make happen - that is if the whole TVA thing isn't a pile of bollocks with Kang behind it.

[stonkers]

Yeah, but I think the main reason they wrote the scene was to cover their bases regarding there being only one time line, eg "this time travel we've just established implies that time travel will create multiple parallel universes, but here's Tilda Swinton to explain that actually it's still one time line really." Like I said, I think in hindsight, they only did that to explain why the Loki series has a "Sacred Timeline".

It's been a while since I last saw it, but my memory of that scene is that the problem with removing the stones (in particular the time stone) isn't per se that it creates a diverging timeline, it's that it would mean a horrible doomed timeline.

Anyway I think it will turn out the sacred timeline stuff is a load of bollocks, they'e got at least three film on the slate that are about multiverse stuff and it seems like the next few "phases" or whatever will be based around that, like 2011-19 was about the infinity stones.

[BritishHobo]

I always think alternate universes are a bit of a copout when it comes to time travel anyway. As their own sci-fi plot devicd  go for it (I will always have a soft spot for Sliders). But surely the whole fun and excitement of time travel is that characters are meddling in their own histories - not the histories of identical but nonetheless distinct alternate versions of themselves in a different reality.

It just leaves me thinking they shouldn't have bothered factoring time travel in at all, given, as you guys say, how significant tbe multiverse is going to be.

[Lord Mandrake]

Episode 3 is Doctor Who by way of Black Mirror with a Disney budget.

Spoiler alert

Loki confirmed as bi, a pisshead and not a bad singer. Charachter development filler but nonetheless very entertaining, a shorter episode with a very abrupt ending

[close]

.

[elliszeroed]

Watching episode 3... Loki is the Doctor Who we need.

[bakabaka]

Running along corridors then tramping around in a quarry in Wales, the Doctor Who and the Master vibe was very strong this week. Very feelgood.

[Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth]

Speculation/potential future spoiler:

Spoiler alert

I assume that the frequent use of the word 'enchant' implies that Sylvie isn't a variant of Loki at all, but actually other Thor baddie The Enchantress.

[close]

[stonkers]

Speculation/potential future spoiler:

Spoiler alert

I assume that the frequent use of the word 'enchant' implies that Sylvie isn't a variant of Loki at all, but actually other Thor baddie The Enchantress.

[close]

Well she is a version of

Spoiler alert

Sylvie Lusthon AKA Enchantress

[close]

, but they're not afraid to deviate from the comics so who knows.

Edit: Removed the link to the Marvel wikia as it shows throught the spoiler blackout.

[Lord Mandrake]

I kind of like the TVA button down shirts with collars that just continue into a pleat(?) effect.

[mjwilson]

Episode 3 is Doctor Who by way of Black Mirror with a Disney budget.

Spoiler alert

Loki confirmed as bi, a pisshead and not a bad singer. Charachter development filler

[close]

.

Calling

Spoiler alert

character development "filler"

[close]

is silly. What would Scorcese say?

[Small Man Big Horse]

I'm struggling with this a bit, I really liked Loki in the various Thor and Avengers movies but for some reason find him fairly irritating in this, and I thought the actress playing Sylvie was quite weak in places, as was some of the cgi. The only character I'm fond of is Owen Wilson's, so his absence didn't help matters either but hopefully he'll be back next week.

[touchingcloth]

Turns out the actor playing Sylvie is Will "Flowers" Sharpe's wife.

[Bad Ambassador]

I thought I recognised her, but couldn't place her. Turns out she was in Friday Night Dinner as Adam's girlfriend in the episode where Johnny papers his room with porn. She had long black hair than and short blond hair now.

[Hobo]

She was also in Casualty for a while, likely where she met Will Sharpe.

[olliebean]

Turns out the actor playing Sylvie is Will "Flowers" Sharpe's wife.

I don't think they're married, are they?

[greenman]

Episode 3 is Doctor Who by way of Black Mirror with a Disney budget.

Spoiler alert

Loki confirmed as bi, a pisshead and not a bad singer. Charachter development filler but nonetheless very entertaining, a shorter episode with a very abrupt ending

[close]

.

Spoiler alert

Play "spot the Loki/Thor shipper" at work by who comes in with a "glow" this morning

[close]

Nice change of pace I felt, the previous series have arguably dipped a little after they've introduced their setting/plot so shifting totally away from the TVA made for something different, interesting setting and good chemistry between them.

[touchingcloth]

I don't think they're married, are they?

I dunno, my source was that her wiki page lists him as her "spouse". Her page doesn't have a "personal life" section, while his does but doesn't mention her or the fact that he's married.

I'm going with a hard "maybe".

[Marv Orange]

Seeing a quarry made me very happy.

[phantom_power]

I am really enjoying this. Hiddlestone is great at comedy, and he seems to have a rapport with everyone he works with.

As for time travel, the best thing to do is not think too hard about it because it is all bullshit, none of it makes sense. It is all paradoxical and the best you can do is make the story interesting enough that you are willing to set it all aside or not notice, which I think Endgame does, in the main

[greenman]

I am really enjoying this. Hiddlestone is great at comedy, and he seems to have a rapport with everyone he works with.

As for time travel, the best thing to do is not think too hard about it because it is all bullshit, none of it makes sense. It is all paradoxical and the best you can do is make the story interesting enough that you are willing to set it all aside or not notice, which I think Endgame does, in the main

Watching this makes me hope he sticks with Marvel rather than getting Bond at any rate.

[touchingcloth]

I am really enjoying this. Hiddlestone is great at comedy, and he seems to have a rapport with everyone he works with.

As for time travel, the best thing to do is not think too hard about it because it is all bullshit, none of it makes sense. It is all paradoxical and the best you can do is make the story interesting enough that you are willing to set it all aside or not notice, which I think Endgame does, in the main

I disagree. It's not that the time travel is paradoxical, which it is in films like BTTF and Terminator, but that they don't even keep it internally consistent. It feels like they've set things up so that time travel can work to write themselves out of any corner or reverse any story line - Romanov and Stark could be reintroduced, Loki might never die. It makes it hard to stay invested with things when there's no sense of jeopardy that can't be avoided or reversed.

[stonkers]

Spoiler alert

I cheered, I shouted, I fist pumped the air.

[close]

[mjwilson]

There is a mid-credits sequence.

[C_Larence]

Really enjoying this now, feel like they've got the pacing just right.