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Half Life (2001) question (also general Half Life thread I guess, why not)

Started by Old Nehamkin, April 06, 2021, 02:52:54 PM

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peanutbutter

RE: Alyx,  is everyone talking like in Firewatch?  I know its the same writing team and I quite liked Firewatch, but I'd probably find that dialogue style pretty grating in a bigger game

popcorn

Quote from: peanutbutter on April 18, 2021, 05:57:19 PM
RE: Alyx,  is everyone talking like in Firewatch?  I know its the same writing team and I quite liked Firewatch, but I'd probably find that dialogue style pretty grating in a bigger game

Alyx was written by a team of four guys - two of them were Firewatch writers and the other two were older Portal/HL2 writers. But there is a persistent flavour of Firewatch dialog, let me put it that way.

Funny story about the HLA writing. Per Wikipedia:

QuoteFormer Half-Life writers Erik Wolpaw and Jay Pinkerton turned down invitations to return to Valve early in the Alyx development. Instead, Valve recruited writer Rob Yescombe of The Invisible Hours, who worked on Alyx in 2017 and 2018. Yescombe's narrative was darker than other Half-Life games, with scenes of dread, torture and horror. The antagonist was a female Combine officer named Hahn; in one proposed ending, Alyx would kill Hahn in revenge for torturing her father. Yescombe also proposed an ending in which Alyx and the G-Man would travel back in time to the events of the first Half-Life to prevent Freeman from triggering the alien invasion.

After the company-wide playtest in 2018, feedback was overwhelmingly positive but for the story, which employees scored the lowest of any Valve game. Morasky described it as "dark, serious and laborious", likening it to a Zack Snyder superhero film. Designer Corey Peters said the team had a "strong feeling" about the story and that it had been "validating" to get the feedback.

Valve initially planned to launch Alyx alongside its Index VR headset in June 2019, but delayed it to address the story. They re-enlisted Wolpaw and Pinkerton to rewrite the plot and dialogue from scratch while preserving the gameplay. They were joined by writers Jake Rodkin and Sean Vanaman, who had joined the company when Valve acquired Campo Santo. Writer Marc Laidlaw, who retired in 2016, provided consultation.

When I joined the games industry back in 2009, Mr Yescombe had a bit of a reputation - people who'd worked with him said he had the most incredible ability to propel himself by his own hot air. This video of him promoting his game Haze from the period is worth a watch. Amazing to think he finally blagged himself into the most prestigious writing job in the industry... which then backfired.

Lemming

Quote from: popcorn on April 18, 2021, 01:45:14 PMFor a certain kind of game (ie Valve games), I strongly prefer a silent protagonist, though you're totally right that it's gone out of style - not even Valve did it in the last HL game. I think having your character speak adds a weird philosophical complication to the whole experience, and I find it annoying at worst and redundant at best. But Erik Wolpaw, one of the HL Alyx writers, is very pro-speaking-protagonist.

Agreed, I hope silent (or at least semi-silent) protagonists come back into fashion to an extent. From the same era as Half-Life, Tomb Raider strikes me as another game that hugely benefitted from having a (mostly) silent protagonist. Lara Croft is given just enough character in short cutscenes that you get an idea of who you're playing as, but in actual gameplay she's totally silent and her thoughts and reactions become your own. Contrast that to modern Tomb Raider games, where an attempt to write a new personality for the character and have her constantly talk and react to things completely guts any sense of atmosphere the games might have had, and has the bizarre effect of verbally telling the player how they should feel about what they're seeing in the game rather than letting them react by themselves. Half-Life 1 is definitely a game that couldn't work with a speaking protagonist. I've not played Alyx or watched a full playthrough yet, but that mocking-the-combine thing does indeed sound like exactly the kind of moment that gets ruined with a speaking protagonist.

H-O-W-L

I think it also ruins it a bit since the Combine
Spoiler alert
know who Alyx is and call her out by name to try and lure her into a false sense of security at a few moments, only for her and Wacky 'Straya Man, Oiate Cunt? to ruin it with SHIT THEY KNOW ME!!! AAAAAAHHHHHHH SPOOMNKY!!!!!! callouts.
[close]
Remember how in Half-Life 2, Gordon Freeman didn't burst into tears when realizing that zombies are screaming "OH GOD HELP, HELP ME!" under their headcrabs?

popcorn

Quote from: H-O-W-L on April 18, 2021, 06:19:26 PM
I think it also ruins it a bit since the Combine
Spoiler alert
know who Alyx is and call her out by name to try and lure her into a false sense of security at a few moments, only for her and Wacky 'Straya Man, Oiate Cunt? to ruin it with SHIT THEY KNOW ME!!! AAAAAAHHHHHHH SPOOMNKY!!!!!! callouts.
[close]
Remember how in Half-Life 2, Gordon Freeman didn't burst into tears when realizing that zombies are screaming "OH GOD HELP, HELP ME!" under their headcrabs?

Yep I felt exactly the same way about that moment.

There's a constant problem of things happening in the game, you (the player) having an emotional response to them, and then the characters in the game effectively telling you what emotional response to have. It's a constant, irritating layer of redundancy and it just feels witless and dumb. A classic show-don't-tell problem.

There are also moments where they dialog becomes a crutch for the designers to teach things to the player that really ought to have come from level design and other cues - such as the
Spoiler alert
dark tunnel you can't enter without the torch
[close]
, which seems like a very un-Valve-like failure of design to me, on several levels.

Lemming

Quote from: popcorn on April 18, 2021, 06:12:50 PMYescombe also proposed an ending in which Alyx and the G-Man would travel back in time to the events of the first Half-Life to prevent Freeman from triggering the alien invasion.

Beyond belief, actually laughed out loud reading that. No doubt it would all lead to the big twist where ALYX WAS THE ONE WHO OVERLOADED THE ANTI-MASS SPECTROMETER!!!

St_Eddie

Quote from: Lemming on April 18, 2021, 06:14:33 PM
Contrast that to modern Tomb Raider games, where an attempt to write a new personality for the character and have her constantly talk and react to things completely guts any sense of atmosphere the games might have had, and has the bizarre effect of verbally telling the player how they should feel about what they're seeing in the game rather than letting them react by themselves.

The most egregious example of this that I've ever come across in a game was during Resident Evil VII.  I love the game on the whole but there's a moment where Ethan descends a ladder and spies the terrifying Marguerite doing a freaky spider walk down a tunnel.  I was so scared at this sight and reluctant to take a further step forward.  However, the fear and tension was completely nullified by Ethan remarking "well, that's special" in that fucking Marvel-esque humour manner.

Here's the moment in question.

The other moment in Resident Evil VII that's similar is when Ethan confronts Jack in the basement, leading to a chainsaw duel.  Once again, the horror of your predicament is undercut by the pair stopping to make a jokey reference to Evil Dead II.

If the character I'm controlling and the developers aren't going to take a horrific life and death situation seriously, then how am I, as the player, supposed to be able to do so?  The worst part is that up until the quips were made, I was taking it seriously and I was terrified.  Way to ruin that earned player investment, developers.

popcorn

Yes, even when he isn't making the quip's Ethan's dialogue really bothered me - constantly reacting at stuff like "Ew! Eurgh! Oh God!" etc. Like sitting next to an annoying person in the cinema.


H-O-W-L

To be fair, I hate the quippy shit but I liked Jack and Ethan's cross-play with the "Groovy!" "That is not Groovy!" dialogue. Jack was a knowing clown, a kind of psychopathic Dad Joke Man. I liked the fact they kept it consistent and it felt like a heark to the more silly Resident Evil bits like Beary Buttons talking in tropes and quotes in Revelations 2. It was shit but in a fun kind of way. I will however agree that Ethan's other dialogue moments are awful.


purlieu

Quote from: popcorn on April 18, 2021, 01:45:14 PM
To me, Gordon being silent is a bit like how you don't see Gordon's hands animating with ladders or valves or steering wheels and so on. It doesn't bother me that his hands aren't there - I accept the metaphor. I'd rather concentrate on other things than be made captive to some elaborate animation, or fight with whatever physics a real-time solution might create.
And the reason the lack of hands doesn't matter is because, no matter how absorbing a game can be, you always know it's a game. You're focusing on exactly the things you should be focusing on with the game, ie what puzzle or threat is coming up next. I can't imagine anyone was ever thrown out of the world the game was making because they couldn't see the hands. And yeah, it's the same with voices. It doesn't even need bringing up in HL2 like it is: if you're in charge of Gordon, he shouldn't do anything you don't make him do, and that includes speaking. Hanging a lampshade on it doesn't really help.

Quote from: Lemming on April 18, 2021, 06:14:33 PMFrom the same era as Half-Life, Tomb Raider strikes me as another game that hugely benefitted from having a (mostly) silent protagonist. Lara Croft is given just enough character in short cutscenes that you get an idea of who you're playing as, but in actual gameplay she's totally silent and her thoughts and reactions become your own. Contrast that to modern Tomb Raider games, where an attempt to write a new personality for the character and have her constantly talk and react to things completely guts any sense of atmosphere the games might have had, and has the bizarre effect of verbally telling the player how they should feel about what they're seeing in the game rather than letting them react by themselves.
The rot began to set in on the last section of Chronicles, with Lara's tech friend speaking to her over her headset through the whole section. I don't mind the urban settings in 2 and (to an extent) 3, but that section just destroyed the whole feel of the game.

madhair60

Quote from: popcorn on April 18, 2021, 08:01:36 PMYes, even when he isn't making the quip's Ethan's dialogue really bothered me - constantly reacting at stuff like "Ew! Eurgh! Oh God!" etc. Like sitting next to an annoying person in the cinema.

Never noticed this myself as the RE series has been goofy and quippy since the original. Agree wrt Naughty Dog though, I think in Uncharted 4 Nathan Drake says "Uhhhh... THAT'S not weird" or some version of that about fifty thousand times.

Jerzy Bondov

Maybe the quips are more jarring in RE7 because of the change to first person? Imagine if in PT your character was like "Okaaaaaaaay. Kinda weird I guess?!"

The best bit in all of Resi is in 4 when Krauser screams in pain and triumph as a gigantic blade covered in blood bursts out of his arm and Leon goes "You've lost it completely"

popcorn

Yeah RE7 was different somehow - by that point Capcom had gone from ridiculous 90s Japanese video game writing to having hired an Actual American Screenwriter to do the script, and its story and writing was just shit Hollywood rather than loveably B-movie-like. Or possibly C-movie. Or Z-movie!!!

I did hugely enjoy lots of RE7, though it was crying out for a silent protag. It would have made the phone calls much more effective too.

St_Eddie

Quote from: Jerzy Bondov on April 19, 2021, 12:13:20 PM
Maybe the quips are more jarring in RE7 because of the change to first person? Imagine if in PT your character was like "Okaaaaaaaay. Kinda weird I guess?!"

The problem was more that Ethan was quipping whilst controlling him as the player in RE7.  In the classic Resident Evil games, your character never spoke whilst the player was in control.  The player's reactions to events were left to their own thoughts, not dictated by the character they were controlling.  All of the cheesy dialogue was consigned to the cutscenes, not the parts where the player had agency.  Classic Resi would have been ruined and all the tension deflated if for example, when encountering the giant spider in the original Resident Evil, Chris had quipped "well, that's not so itsy-bitsy", or had he made a jokey reference to Little Shop of Horrors whilst fighting Plant 42.

Thursday

Yeah I'm remembering the atmosphere of the original demo for Resident Evil 7, which actually had an atmosphere much closer to P.T and that but the game ends up being so different in tone. I do really like the game, but the story and atmosphere does end up being a bit of a fart.

I'm sure I remember reading that it was basically two studios working on the game, an American one and a Japanese one and they don't seem to have been working towards the same goal.

H-O-W-L

RE7 frankly falls to shit the moment
Spoiler alert
Jack leaves the plot for the first time.
[close]
Lucas is a pale imitation.