What is indigenous white British culture?

[Poobum]

Creating elaborate tapestries of neighbourly hatred.

[Buelligan]

Not bagpipes, every fucker has bagpipes.

[idunnosomename]

MUSHY PEAS

[Paul Calf]

I'm pretty sure that if 'white people' flagellate themselves hard enough everything will be OK and we won't have to pay any attention to systemic class injustices.

[bgmnts]

#alllivesmatter

[Sebastian Cobb]

I'm pretty sure that if 'white people' flagellate themselves hard enough everything will be OK and we won't have to pay any attention to systemic class injustices.

I still think there could be more flagellation of bofa personally.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Bofa's Theory of Updog is absolutely seminal.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Proper answer to this thread:

I'm pretty sure that if 'white people' flagellate themselves hard enough everything will be OK and we won't have to pay any attention to systemic class injustices.

Reported to HR for three hours of mandatory affect theory.

#alllivesmatter

Reported to HR for three hours of videogames about cancer.

[TrenterPercenter]

1) "reducible to class" isn't even a construction that makes sense from within a Marxist perspective itself, since class is a structural category concerning kinds of relationships rather than prescriptive of certain kinds of position or an identity.

You may have noticed I edited out couple of parts of my post to be more concise; this is fundamental key misinterpretation of Marx that occurs again and again.  You can separate the world into nominal values but its a crude fit the world is better represented by relationships; the idea that we are "set things" in there place and not moving around and unrelated and absent of interaction with one another is the overhang of an oppressive history.  Thinking class in its entirety (and not the separation of class for political ends i.e. uniting a much bigger proletariat to take on much smaller bourgeois) is a set category and that Marxists just see people poor or not poor is Praeger U grade nonsense that certain "lefties" seem particularly keen on progressing as a thing.  There is variability within class; just like there is variability within humans regardless of the colour of their skin.

There are lots of ways to critique people like Reed (and Chibber, who Trenter posted about elsewhere) but the concept of 'class reductionism' is incoherent, and like Trenter says, relies on us pretending that Marxist philosophers and writers are saying something which they aren't. Its something that only makes sense inside American institutions. If I was going to critique Reed, I'd start with the fact his approach can be a bit "everyone except me is essentialist" which leads him to be cited by some very iffy people.

Yes and it would be a much better critique; this is more a problem of any individual speaking from a perspective is to a degree essentialist and how you counter act that; I also recognise the problem of what he his saying being used by some iffy people to say there you go "racism doesn't exist"; but you literally have to listen to Reed for a minute to realise this isn't the case; it's just more black and white tribalist thinking in which character assassination and misrepresentation take the place of discussion and listening to what peoples actual arguments are (hmmm perhaps this speaks to your YT thoughts).

2) Trenter's posts on this subject refer to a very broad range of writers - from liberals like McWhorter to old fashioned Marxists like Reed, Chibber is in the sociology of colonialism, Touré Reed has more in common with Karen Fields, etc. Whereas Campt, Sharpe, etc. Are all from the same field and have what I would consider everyone you mentioned other than Robin Kelley to be taking roughly the same approach and producing the same kind of writing. I agree that a lot of the things people say and write about this can be very stressful, and lord knows there is some dire shit out there written against 'race reductionism', but it should be pointed out that its not a broad range of academics shouting down class - but one very specific approach that is specific centered around a very particular, North American brand of cultural studies that other ways of thinking find reductive and not vice versa.

Ha this was the other bit I took out; all of the other authors, Kelley aside, are looking at things from an experiential perspective; its to my mind absolutely informed by Fanon and is really valuable; just not if taken to extremes; there are commonalities of experience for groups but also variability in those groups; there are commonalities of experience between groups and variabilities; that hierarchy of these groups in this sense is less about Marxist class structure and more about human.

Ever wonder why almost everyone making this argument makes it in English...........I don't know how could anyone in a western country could look at any public institution or space after the 1970s and think 'too much class on the menu' and that this was some kind of a problem for disabled people, minorities and women....

Two excellent.  What is baffling is often these people are very prominent in leftist discussions going on about leftism but know nothing and being actively hostile to Marxists; I doesn't make any sense and often just leaves me wondering if I was a rightwinger being smart; then this is exactly the way I would go about hollowing out left politics from the inside; I don't think I'm quite ready to go with this in entirety it's much more (as Mcwhorter implies) about personal egos and using leftism as a lifestyle and identity enforcer.

[Chedney Honks]

Norris McWhirter

[TrenterPercenter]

I'm pretty sure that if 'white people' flagellate themselves hard enough everything will be OK and we won't have to pay any attention to systemic class injustices.

Yes Coca-cola thinks we should all talk about white fragility......forever.  Wonder why....

[TrenterPercenter]

Norris McWhirter

I know I always think of this when I see the name (also in the context of Stewart Lee is quite adapt)

[AllisonSays]

I am actually going to log off now because the infinitely recursive feedback loop of trying to have a conversation with Trenter between the self-congratulatory dogma is doing my napper in, but Gargi Bhattacharyya's work (and the brilliant recent collective book she's published, Empire's Endgame), is broadly what informs my understanding of the relationship between race, capitalism and class, along with the black feminist stuff I mentioned before. Sorry for hijacking the thread but the over-confident way you talk about stuff like this annoys me so much, my god. It's really complicated!

[Video Game Fan 2000]

It's really complicated!

Messy too I bet. This is the kind of academic reaction to politics I dislike - the dissonance between its all so complicated! but somehow our present combination of cultural studies and sociology can handle everything we chuck at it without looking outside itself.

edit: doesn't Bhattacharyya often advocate for solidarity or a generic collective subject over identity groups tho? I really don't see that at odds with Trenter's points or a 'dogma'

[Neville Chamberlain]

Jeremy Corbyn's plums.

[TrenterPercenter]

I am actually going to log off now because the infinitely recursive feedback loop of trying to have a conversation with Trenter between the self-congratulatory dogma is doing my napper in, but Gargi Bhattacharyya's work (and the brilliant recent collective book she's published, Empire's Endgame), is broadly what informs my understanding of the relationship between race, capitalism and class, along with the black feminist stuff I mentioned before. Sorry for hijacking the thread but the over-confident way you talk about stuff like this annoys me so much, my god. It's really complicated!

Ok bye.  Of course it is complicated that is the point; sorry you can't be bothered to illuminate your thoughts more on this; perhaps spend less time going on about posters and doing your own "confident" moves like ironically simplifying someone like Toure Reeds position down to class reductionism.

You've not hijacked anything; you just like anyone else is not above questioning and you've had 3 goes to reply and wasted each one going on about things that do nothing to evidence your view point.  You are just saying I like this book; great, that is nice.  Enjoy your nap.

[bgmnts]

Glad I'm not the only one ha.

[TrenterPercenter]

"just for the taste of it"

[Buelligan]

Ok bye.  Of course it is complicated that is the point; sorry you can't be bothered to illuminate your thoughts more on this; perhaps spend less time going on about posters and doing your own "confident" moves like ironically simplifying someone like Toure Reeds position down to class reductionism.

You've not hijacked anything; you just like anyone else is not above questioning and you've had 3 goes to reply and wasted each one going on about things that do nothing to evidence your view point.  You are just saying I like this book; great, that is nice.  Enjoy your nap.

Why are you doing this?  Stop it please.

[TrenterPercenter]

Sorry am I misspelling something again?

[Video Game Fan 2000]

McVities never made the Primitive Accumulation bar it was Jacobs

[TrenterPercenter]

"Actually now I come to think of it the revolution will be televised and sold you in biodegradable packaging" - Gil Scott-Heron

[Ferris]

Hagiographic AABBCC poetry about deceased war criminals, published exclusively on a Facebook neighbourhood group.

[TrenterPercenter]

Hagiographic AABBCC poetry about deceased war criminals, published exclusively on a Facebook neighbourhood group.

Ah yes and also the misery olympics of Brits posting their grievances about bad driving, parking, parenting, the "are country" stuff is really just an extension of this "I'm miserable so everyone else needs to be" culture that permeates this land.

[Bazooka]

Having an awareness for when something is cheesy(not cheese).

[The Dog]

It's just basically house prices now.

[Ferris]

The descriptor "naff".

[pigamus]

And taking the piss in general.

[Paul Calf]

#alllivesmatter

Why are you punching yourself in the face?

[Ornlu]

I dunno, loads of things. Britpop. Beef Wellington. Ken Loach. Wheat Crunchies. Iannucci, etc.

You've got to support your own team though, don't ya. Everyone else does!