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European 'Super' League

Started by Chedney Honks, April 19, 2021, 05:21:21 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

thugler

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on April 19, 2021, 02:34:25 PM
Speak for yourself, I'm fucking delighted.

Absolutely mask-off, unavoidably obvious greed front and centre. Best case scenario - those six clubs piss off and never darken the doorstep of the domestic league ever again and can play spiritless zero-stakes friendlies in empty stadiums for the boys in Guangzhou. They can take their money with them and their players will be left as husks.

Meanwhile the rest of the premier league resets and becomes more equitable and fun. Couldn't ask for more, I might even start watching it again.

My club is involved in this (Arsenal), and I still want them to fucking crash and burn as a result. I will give up being a supporter entirely if it goes through.

Edit: NEW PAGE CUNT

Ferris

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on April 19, 2021, 01:39:36 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/apr/19/jp-morgan-european-super-league

JP Morgan risking its hard won reputation as one of the true good guys here.

Depending on how this cash is to be funded is probably the best way of ascertaining if this goes ahead despite roadblocks from uefa/fifa.

If their funding deal says cash is deliverable "upon the games being played" or "league established" or whatever, then JPM can pull their money back if it fizzles out. If the cash has already left their coffers (and I suspect it has, at least in part) then there's absolutely no way it can be halted - teams would be in the hole for hundreds of millions each and AC Milan's revenue (for example) is less than Sheffield United. They'd have to make it work somehow, even if they had to put the tea lady up front.

Whatever happens it's billionaire cunts fighting with billionaire cunts so I'm happy whichever set lose.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: SpiderChrist on April 19, 2021, 10:28:13 AMThey're correct, of course, that this is an example of greed, but they are hardly innocents in this regard.

Yeah, I've never heard the term "football pyramid" before in my life but heard it about a hundred times today by everyone up to and including the very sage and wise Robbie Savage. I doubt the bottom of the so called pyramid are getting half a weeks salary that Neville was getting.

The same 15 teams playing each other without danger of relegation seems boring to me but they must have done focus groups in Asia where the average fan must like the idea. I did enjoy Neville's rant where he basically said he didn't give shit about Spurs but that team getting into this league no questions asked seems very strange, how often do Spurs even make it into the Champions League? And now they're being included in this exclusive list? There's no logic to that, they haven't won the league in decades.

thugler

Quote from: checkoutgirl on April 19, 2021, 02:42:48 PM
Yeah, I've never heard the term "football pyramid" before in my life but heard it about a hundred times today by everyone up to and including the very sage and wise Robbie Savage. I doubt the bottom of the so called pyramid are getting half a weeks salary that Neville was getting.

The same 15 teams playing each other without danger of relegation seems boring to me but they must have done focus groups in Asia where the average fan must like the idea. I did enjoy Neville's rant where he basically said he didn't give shit about Spurs but that team getting into this league no questions asked seems very strange, how often do Spurs even make it into the Champions League? And now they're being included in this exclusive list? There's no logic to that, they haven't won the league in decades.

Because they have a big stadium, and a fairly sizable global fanbase. No sense Arsenal being in it either given we're in 9th and haven't qualified for the champions league in several years. Takes the piss out of clubs like West Ham and Leicester who've been demonstrably better than both Arsenal and Spurs this season.

The Culture Bunker

I do have to laugh at the line that this is a "spit in the face of football lovers" coming from the President of UEFA, of all people.

Quote from: checkoutgirl on April 19, 2021, 02:42:48 PM
The same 15 teams playing each other without danger of relegation seems boring to me but they must have done focus groups in Asia where the average fan must like the idea. I did enjoy Neville's rant where he basically said he didn't give shit about Spurs but that team getting into this league no questions asked seems very strange, how often do Spurs even make it into the Champions League? And now they're being included in this exclusive list? There's no logic to that, they haven't won the league in decades.

It's just aping the US franchise model, isn't it? The same teams playing each other forever, nowhere to be relegated to, no teams waiting to be promoted in. Players coming straight from college/academies and then straight onto the scrapheap once they're slightly past their best.

When Vince McMahon brought back the XFL and it was both entertaining and high level, people in the States seemed amazed that it was possible for more than the 32 teams in the NFL to be able to co-exist. That there could be more than 1,760 athletes capable of being professional American football players on the planet at any one time. They genuinely think that the NFL is a meritocracy.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on April 19, 2021, 02:34:25 PM
Speak for yourself, I'm fucking delighted.

Absolutely mask-off, unavoidably obvious greed front and centre. Best case scenario - those six clubs piss off and never darken the doorstep of the domestic league ever again and can play spiritless zero-stakes friendlies in empty stadiums for the boys in Guangzhou. They can take their money with them and their players will be left as husks.

Meanwhile the rest of the premier league resets and becomes more equitable and fun. Couldn't ask for more, I might even start watching it again.

That's definitely not how it's going to go down though.


GMTV

If these clubs leave they should be stripped of their titles and history. If they come back they should be considered different clubs.

phantom_power

It seems a bit harsh to ban players from playing international games. They are under contract to play for those teams so I am not sure how much choice they have. I can see the reasoning behind banning the teams from the Premier League and Champs League but banning individual players seems like blaming the wrong people

Ferris

Quote from: Huxleys Babkins on April 19, 2021, 03:04:11 PM
It's just aping the US franchise model, isn't it? The same teams playing each other forever, nowhere to be relegated to, no teams waiting to be promoted in. Players coming straight from college/academies and then straight onto the scrapheap once they're slightly past their best.

As much as I like relegations (because it gives everyone an impetus to compete), the "everyone playing everyone forever" model has its own internal corrections because losing teams are not very profitable. If teams can't garner local interest, they're in trouble. Won't go bust, but the owners won't make much either.

You make a fuckload more lucre when you're winning because millions of latent fans tune in and buy championship merch and all the rest of it. You also still get mega teams like the Yankees and Red Sox, but they go through fallow periods (like right now) because of the waxing/waning of their drafted rosters. Plus teams that were punchlines a few years ago (white Sox, Padres, Mets) become powerhouses and the teams that won it all revert to being whipping boys (Cubs, royals etc). Keeps everything fun.

Should point out this relies on a huge domestic audience, lots of latent support from locals, and a load of alternative dominant sports/local teams that threaten to swipe your audience and keep you honest. That doesn't really apply to European football. You also still get the odd team like the Marlins that just don't give a fuck and will cash the cheques while fielding any team that's cheap.

Ferris

Actually, thinking about it the audience for this will probably cannibalize themselves. The lads in Makati will stick their Milan jersey in a draw, and put on man city's famous sky blue as teams wax and wane.

Hopefully it's all a financial disaster and all teams involve go bankrupt.

checkoutgirl

Quote from: Huxleys Babkins on April 19, 2021, 03:04:11 PMIt's just aping the US franchise model, isn't it? The same teams playing each other forever, nowhere to be relegated to, no teams waiting to be promoted in. Players coming straight from college/academies and then straight onto the scrapheap once they're slightly past their best.

I quite like the idea of the draft in principle as it eliminates the idea of money getting all the best talent always. Is the draft somehow linked to there being no danger of relegation and the same teams always playing each other? If so then maybe the draft isn't worth it.

The American model of teams grouping together and making leagues seems very unfair in that your team just weren't picked to be in the league. Fuck merit you just weren't picked and will never be inside the tent.

lankyguy95

Quote from: phantom_power on April 19, 2021, 03:19:00 PM
It seems a bit harsh to ban players from playing international games. They are under contract to play for those teams so I am not sure how much choice they have. I can see the reasoning behind banning the teams from the Premier League and Champs League but banning individual players seems like blaming the wrong people
I think they'd just be doing everything to stop it. The fewer incentives there are to play in it, the more the players will try to leave, the less likely it gets off the ground.

Unfortunately of course the biggest incentive is money and if teams are getting $425m up front just for accepting the invitation, you can bet they can pay players enough to make them stay.

greenman

I'm guessing part of the thinking behind this league isn't just maximising income but also having the kind of control the US leagues do, the big investors can pull up the drawbridge to make sure nobody else does the same and potentially don't have to spend as much themselves with garented income each year.

Honestly though I care a lot less about this than I did "Big Picture" last year, really its more formalising a situation that has existed previously in terms of certain teams dominance of Europe were as that I think would firmly have set us on the path to the prem being more like La Liga with the big sides taking the vast majority of the income.

I spose the big losers are the smaller leagues but honestly I can see most of the clubs being happy the dominant side lose their champs league income.

Thursday

So just to be clear can The FA Brothers Ian and Iain Fa just decide to just kick out all these teams, do they need some actual legal reason for doing so, or is it likely they cower out of doing it because of the money they'll lose?

Ferris

Quote from: checkoutgirl on April 19, 2021, 03:28:58 PM
I quite like the idea of the draft in principle as it eliminates the idea of money getting all the best talent always. Is the draft somehow linked to there being no danger of relegation and the same teams always playing each other? If so then maybe the draft isn't worth it.

Worst team gets to draft first. Best team of previous season drafts last. If there's a particularly hot prospect becoming draft eligible (especially in a sport like basketball where one star player can dramatically alter a teams fortunes) then it isn't uncommon for teams doing badly to trade away all of their players for a song, intentionally[nb]"if the league asks, what we're doing isn't intentional"[/nb] finish last then draft first. If you finish middle of the pack, you're doing it wrong.

Worst thing you can do in draft-type leagues is try and stay good forever because you end up expensive and mediocre at best, you have to intentionally tear down your team by tearing away any player of value, get a load of good cheap prospects, stink for a couple of years then be very good. Rinse and repeat. Teams will plan their competitive "window" (is when they're youth players are expected to perform) around other teams' development cycles to some extent. No point getting really good right as the Yankees peak and you finish a credible 2nd. Win or bust.

There's a lot of interesting logic to it I won't go into (and I only really know baseball in depth anyway) but I don't think it's massively applicable to European football.

greenman

Quote from: Thursday on April 19, 2021, 03:39:17 PM
So just to be clear can The FA Brothers Ian and Iain Fa just decide to just kick out all these teams, do they need some actual legal reason for doing so, or is it likely they cower out of doing it because of the money they'll lose?

I'm guessing anyone who kicks these teams out and then loses in court is probably in the hole for billions, even banning the players might well result in a massive legal bill.

sevendaughters

Quote from: Thursday on April 19, 2021, 03:39:17 PM
So just to be clear can The FA Brothers Ian and Iain Fa just decide to just kick out all these teams, do they need some actual legal reason for doing so, or is it likely they cower out of doing it because of the money they'll lose?

they can kick them out because teams are forbidden from entering other competitions without express consent of the league

EOLAN

Quote from: checkoutgirl on April 19, 2021, 03:28:58 PM
I quite like the idea of the draft in principle as it eliminates the idea of money getting all the best talent always. Is the draft somehow linked to there being no danger of relegation and the same teams always playing each other? If so then maybe the draft isn't worth it.

The American model of teams grouping together and making leagues seems very unfair in that your team just weren't picked to be in the league. Fuck merit you just weren't picked and will never be inside the tent.

Yep. Effectively if you are out of running for a play-off place; the club/franchises are enticed to perform badly in a bid to get a better draft pick. Effectively the more you fail last season the more you are rewarded for the next. 

thugler

Quote from: checkoutgirl on April 19, 2021, 03:28:58 PM
I quite like the idea of the draft in principle as it eliminates the idea of money getting all the best talent always. Is the draft somehow linked to there being no danger of relegation and the same teams always playing each other? If so then maybe the draft isn't worth it.

The American model of teams grouping together and making leagues seems very unfair in that your team just weren't picked to be in the league. Fuck merit you just weren't picked and will never be inside the tent.

The draft sounds good in theory, but you get the phenomenon of teams 'tanking' the season to finish as low as possible and thus get a better draft pick. No relegation is a disaster.

sevendaughters

I could see drafts being brought in but then it turns what is left of the English system et. al. into a prospect pool and I just fuckin hate that

Inspector Norse

Quote from: Kankurette on April 19, 2021, 02:19:24 PM
I know we suck. I don't care. I don't want my team anywhere near this horror show.

You just know that if it's successful it'll be followed by a European Decent League featuring Everton v Sevilla or Lazio every week

Ferris

Quote from: thugler on April 19, 2021, 03:48:59 PM
The draft sounds good in theory, but you get the phenomenon of teams 'tanking' the season to finish as low as possible and thus get a better draft pick. No relegation is a disaster.

But currently you have prem teams who aspire to finish 13th every season. Their beige dream is 16th because that means they did the absolute minimum to survive.

The tank'n'draft system encourages you to be bad now in order to be competitive later.

As a fan of the Blue Jays and Aston Villa, both teams were pretty rotten for much of the last decade but the Jays intentionally tanked and will now be very good for 3 or 4 years. Villa are currently 11th with nothing to play for. As a result I currently watch (and pay for) baseball but haven't seen a football game for approaching 2 years.

It's not as clear cut as "no relegation = all teams are bad".

checkoutgirl

Quote from: sevendaughters on April 19, 2021, 03:51:38 PM
I could see drafts being brought in

If it fucks with the status quo of where all the big money is I can't see it coming in, although it does have an advantage of teams moving about in the table quite a lot which doesn't happen so much in football leagues. When Utd were dominant under Fergie the league felt quite stale and uncompetitive except for Arsenal, a dash of Chelsea and and a tiny pinch of Blackburn. A closed system might have been preferable for that period.

The super league looks like it's a non starter this time but even if that's the case they're still planting the seed and they will probably try again in a few years. If football has made anything clear in the last few decades is if you have enough money everything's up for grabs and that's it. Fuck the fans, fuck the history.

Little excerpt from an American about their model vs English model
QuoteThat is why I find it odd that pro/rel doesn't exist here, because there are so many areas where fans have absolutely zero teams to support. There are entire states that do not have a professional team in a certain sport, and some that don't have a professional team in ANY sport. It would make sense to have an "American" type league in such a small place like England, because 30-some teams COULD be pretty close to just about everyone. But in a country the size of the USA, it just doesn't make sense. So many fans live HOURS from the nearest team because of the closed system.

So America does have relegation, just that it's for players rather than teams. Fans will eventually get used to whatever system and both systems have their merits so fuck knows which one is really better.

BlodwynPig

Quote from: druss on April 19, 2021, 11:10:07 AM
Banning them from other competitions is the opposite of what should be happening. Just let them have their silly super league but as long as they have to play every other competition as well. All of these twat clubs will be shooting themselves in the foot by playing glorified friendlies midweek meaning they end up winning nothing of value. A few years down the line these big 12 will have won fuck all elsewhere due to fixture congestion and the super league will die.

2027, Man City C team win the FA Cup for the 3rd season in a row

finnquark

Anything that adds 100 to the gate at Alty should be applauded.

BlodwynPig

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on April 19, 2021, 02:34:25 PM
Speak for yourself, I'm fucking delighted.

Absolutely mask-off, unavoidably obvious greed front and centre. Best case scenario - those six clubs piss off and never darken the doorstep of the domestic league ever again and can play spiritless zero-stakes friendlies in empty stadiums for the boys in Guangzhou. They can take their money with them and their players will be left as husks.

Meanwhile the rest of the premier league resets and becomes more equitable and fun. Couldn't ask for more, I might even start watching it again.

2029 - After back to back Premier League wins, Aston Villa and Ferris clamour to be accepted into the ESL "Our time is now!" Mr. Ferris says through a Chinese interpreter.

thugler

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on April 19, 2021, 04:22:13 PM
But currently you have prem teams who aspire to finish 13th every season. Their beige dream is 16th because that means they did the absolute minimum to survive.

It's perfectly possible to regulate to help the smaller teams more competitive with the bigger ones. FFP would have been a start but it wasn't enacted properly.

BlodwynPig

Quote from: GMTV on April 19, 2021, 03:17:15 PM
If these clubs leave they should be stripped of their titles and history. If they come back they should be considered different clubs.

Like Sevco Scotland Ltd FC?

sevendaughters

Quote from: checkoutgirl on April 19, 2021, 04:23:57 PM
So America does have relegation, just that it's for players rather than teams. Fans will eventually get used to whatever system and both systems have their merits so fuck knows which one is really better.

America also has an idiosyncratic and intensely regionalist form of sport distribution which garners more support in total attendees per weekend - college football. Wonder how they'd feel about foreign investors fucking that up for them.