Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 10:39:06 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings

Started by VelourSpirit, April 19, 2021, 05:02:10 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

VelourSpirit

Looks like a mash-up of every kind of martial arts film, some shots look like standard MCU stuff, some look like beautiful Crouching Tiger-ish wuxia stuff. It's got Tony Leung in it! Should be fun
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giWIr7U1deA

Mister Six

Up for the kung-fu and wuxia, but my eyes glazed over at the big CGIed grasslands battle scenes, like ones we already saw in Black Panther and Infinity War. Hopefully that's just in a big flashback to the establishment of the Ten Rings, and not the climax of the movie. Bored of every Marvel movie degenerating into vast shots of distant figures and explosions, and especially don't want it in a martial arts flick.

Hope we get Trevor from Iron Man 3 back for a quick cameo.

The Culture Bunker

Quote from: Mister Six on April 19, 2021, 07:44:40 PMHope we get Trevor from Iron Man 3 back for a quick cameo.
I think I remember one of those Marvel 'One-Shot' things showing him enjoying celebrity status in clink, but getting a visit from an agent of the actual Mandarin.

Mister Six

Yeah, so I'm hoping he turns up in the actual Mandarin's dungeon or something.

Not usually a Marvel guy but this one looks pretty good, I'm a sucker for Kung Fu/Wuxia stuff so they've finally got my attention. The action scenes in Marvel films are usually junky, poorly edited dogshit though so we'll have to see if they step it up on this one

Mister Six

Bit concerned that they've done another Black Panther and brought in a director with really good dramatic chops who can't direct action for shit. Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if they pulled in one of the John Wick blokes to shoot the fight scenes, like DC did with Birds of Prey, although it looks a bit late on for that now. I know BoP redid most of the fights in reshoots but this looks a bit more broadly actiony and dependent on CGI, so that might not be feasible.

Quote from: Mister Six on April 19, 2021, 11:20:10 PM
Bit concerned that they've done another Black Panther and brought in a director with really good dramatic chops who can't direct action for shit. Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if they pulled in one of the John Wick blokes to shoot the fight scenes, like DC did with Birds of Prey, although it looks a bit late on for that now. I know BoP redid most of the fights in reshoots but this looks a bit more broadly actiony and dependent on CGI, so that might not be feasible.

Hopefully the fact that the main character does not appear to wear a full-body costume will deter them from going the full CGI route (the worst parts of Black Panther).

According to IMDB, the fight coordinator is a guy (Andy Cheng) who worked for many years with Jackie Chan, so that is somewhat encouraging.

Mister Six

That doesn't mean much if the director and editor can't frame the shots or resist chopping everything to shit. Also classic Jackie Chan had the "benefit" of working in old-school Hong Kong, where you could just toss someone off a building for a stunt. Not the case here. But we'll see. Nice to have a hero whose powers/abilities don't trend towards big CGI explosions or glowing vortices, in any case.

wooders1978

Looks crap to me - short term 12 director is an obvious choice for a crouching tigeresque martial arts romp, don't bring anyone experienced in from China or anything (fair enough not going for ang glee after "hulk" mind you)

druss

I'm making the stunning prediction that if you generally like Marvel films you'll like this, but if you don't then this won't win you over.

greenman

Quote from: Mister Six on April 20, 2021, 04:47:51 AM
That doesn't mean much if the director and editor can't frame the shots or resist chopping everything to shit. Also classic Jackie Chan had the "benefit" of working in old-school Hong Kong, where you could just toss someone off a building for a stunt. Not the case here. But we'll see. Nice to have a hero whose powers/abilities don't trend towards big CGI explosions or glowing vortices, in any case.

Marvel I would say has become pretty good already in terms of fight scenes, far better than say the mess of the Nolan Batman films and the smaller scale martial arts stuff in this does look pretty well filmed.

bakabaka

Quote from: greenman on April 20, 2021, 11:45:54 AM
Marvel I would say has become pretty good already in terms of fight scenes, far better than say the mess of the Nolan Batman films and the smaller scale martial arts stuff in this does look pretty well filmed.
Presumably, by 'Marvel' you don't mean the likes of Iron Fist.

Mister Six

Quote from: greenman on April 20, 2021, 11:45:54 AM
Marvel I would say has become pretty good already in terms of fight scenes, far better than say the mess of the Nolan Batman films and the smaller scale martial arts stuff in this does look pretty well filmed.

It very much depends on the director. The Russos' action scenes in the Captain America and Avengers films are stunning - clearly blocked, great use of environments, interesting uses of powers, crisp CGI and a lot of physical stuntwork.

In Cap 3, the Black Panther fights make great use of verticality, as he chases Cap and Bucky down flights of stairs and from one roof to another. There are also plenty of shots that let you see what is happening from a little distance, so you can appreciate the fluidity and speed of BP compared to strength of Cap.

In Black Panther the fights almost always occur on a flat plane, with choppy editing and everything pulled in too close. Works when you're doing a boxing movie, less so when you're showing superhuman martial artists.

Likewise, Cap 3's car chase occurs with different-looking vehicles through a constrained tunnel, so there's never any doubt as to who is where or what they're doing. Meanwhile, BP's chase occurs across a stretch of samey-looking Seoul roads, features a bunch of identical-looking black cars that are divided across two different locations once the team gets split up, and consequently becomes a bit of an incomprehensible mess.

Same with the Netflix shows - Daredevil had stunning fights, Jessica Jones had fights that would have looked poor in a 1990s Canadian-shot telefantasy show.

The bus bits in the trailer look good, and I like the glimpses of wuxia stuff, but it's hard to tell without seeing a full fight sequence. I really, really want it to be good though. If Enter the Badlands can have two or three fun, varied fights an episode, there's really no excuse for a big Marvel blockbuster to fuck it up.

The Culture Bunker

Quote from: Mister Six on April 20, 2021, 03:48:01 PMSame with the Netflix shows - Daredevil had stunning fights, Jessica Jones had fights that would have looked poor in a 1990s Canadian-shot telefantasy show.
I get your wider point re fight scenes, but is part of this that Daredevil is a highly-trained martial artist, but Jessica Jones relies only on her  enhanced strength/endurance? Can't remember how her fight scenes compared to the ones in Luke Cage.

I did like the absolute brutality of Punisher's fight scenes.

Mister Six

Quote from: The Culture Bunker on April 20, 2021, 04:06:54 PM
I get your wider point re fight scenes, but is part of this that Daredevil is a highly-trained martial artist, but Jessica Jones relies only on her  enhanced strength/endurance?

No, they were just really badly shot - poorly lit, static cameras, no sense of pace or drama.

The Culture Bunker

Quote from: Mister Six on April 20, 2021, 05:22:52 PM
No, they were just really badly shot - poorly lit, static cameras, no sense of pace or drama.
Fair enough. I did enjoy the first series of JJ (lost interest part way through the second) but didn't remember the fight scenes much.

greenman

Quote from: Mister Six on April 20, 2021, 03:48:01 PM
It very much depends on the director. The Russos' action scenes in the Captain America and Avengers films are stunning - clearly blocked, great use of environments, interesting uses of powers, crisp CGI and a lot of physical stuntwork.

In Cap 3, the Black Panther fights make great use of verticality, as he chases Cap and Bucky down flights of stairs and from one roof to another. There are also plenty of shots that let you see what is happening from a little distance, so you can appreciate the fluidity and speed of BP compared to strength of Cap.

In Black Panther the fights almost always occur on a flat plane, with choppy editing and everything pulled in too close. Works when you're doing a boxing movie, less so when you're showing superhuman martial artists.

Likewise, Cap 3's car chase occurs with different-looking vehicles through a constrained tunnel, so there's never any doubt as to who is where or what they're doing. Meanwhile, BP's chase occurs across a stretch of samey-looking Seoul roads, features a bunch of identical-looking black cars that are divided across two different locations once the team gets split up, and consequently becomes a bit of an incomprehensible mess.

Same with the Netflix shows - Daredevil had stunning fights, Jessica Jones had fights that would have looked poor in a 1990s Canadian-shot telefantasy show.

The bus bits in the trailer look good, and I like the glimpses of wuxia stuff, but it's hard to tell without seeing a full fight sequence. I really, really want it to be good though. If Enter the Badlands can have two or three fun, varied fights an episode, there's really no excuse for a big Marvel blockbuster to fuck it up.

Wouldn't disagree there, ironically the director who made his name with boxing films is worse at fight scenes than the two guys who made their names in comedy.

Perhaps it was that very lack of experience that was the issue? the Russo's were more willing to defer to, work with and learn from a fight chorographer? James Young did that for all their Marvel films and the two Guardians films plus the upcoming Black Widow film.

\


Mister Six

Yeah, maybe that's it. The shit CGI in BP is what baffles me. Surely they have the money and contacts to get it done properly? Unless it was re-rendered at the last minute because it wasn't working or something.

colacentral

My feeling about the shockingly bad CGI in Black Panther is that all the Marvel budget around that period was going into Infinity War / Endgame, which were filming at the same time and, obviously, Thanos was what they were most concerned about getting right.

I think this looks fun. Agree with the hopes and worries about the fight scenes. I don't want too much wire work wankery either.

bakabaka

This article seems to lay the blame for Iron Fist's fight scenes being so much worse than Daredevil's and Jessica Jones' squarely on the actor, Finn Jones.
And he lays the blame on not having had the time to practice them; though others imply that he should have made the time.

Which then implies that if Simu Liu puts in the effort, this should be great. And take away the bad taste Iron Fist left in the mouths of Marvel martial arts fans.

mothman

Quote from: colacentral on April 20, 2021, 07:20:30 PM
My feeling about the shockingly bad CGI in Black Panther is that all the Marvel budget around that period was going into Infinity War / Endgame, which were filming at the same time and, obviously, Thanos was what they were most concerned about getting right.

I think this looks fun. Agree with the hopes and worries about the fight scenes. I don't want too much wire work wankery either.
Cynically I do wonder if they were happy to go with shonky CGI because it was cheaper and they had too many fanboys going on about how a superhero film with loads of black people won't make any money.

Mister Six

Black Panther had a budget of $200 million, which is $30 million more than Captain America 2. Captain America 3 had a $250 million budget, but they had to fork out for Robert Downey Jr and all the other Avengers cast, so that'll be where the cash went there.

Those are specific budgets for those films - Marvel wasn't going to dip into BP's budget to pad out Infinity War (which had a budget of a whopping $320 million, although given the cast that's hardly surprising).

Quote from: bakabaka on April 20, 2021, 08:01:00 PM
This article seems to lay the blame for Iron Fist's fight scenes being so much worse than Daredevil's and Jessica Jones' squarely on the actor, Finn Jones.
And he lays the blame on not having had the time to practice them; though others imply that he should have made the time.

Which then implies that if Simu Liu puts in the effort, this should be great. And take away the bad taste Iron Fist left in the mouths of Marvel martial arts fans.

A colleague of mine used to go to the same gym as Finn Jones when they were filming Iron Fist. She says he just seemed to walk around with one of those big inflatable balls all the time and not do any actual exercise.

Seems bizarre, given that this was the bloke's big shot at a starring role and he would have to spend a lot of time shirtless and punching people. At least with Daredevil the stocking/mask make bringing in a stuntman easier.

colacentral

Quote from: Mister Six on April 21, 2021, 03:54:06 AM
Black Panther had a budget of $200 million, which is $30 million more than Captain America 2. Captain America 3 had a $250 million budget, but they had to fork out for Robert Downey Jr and all the other Avengers cast, so that'll be where the cash went there.

Those are specific budgets for those films - Marvel wasn't going to dip into BP's budget to pad out Infinity War (which had a budget of a whopping $320 million, although given the cast that's hardly surprising).

From looking around further, it looks like the big problem with Black Panther's CGI in the big fight at the end is that it was reshot and the effects team only had a few weeks to do it. That was not long after they started releasing 3 films a year.

Speaking of IW though, as good as Thanos looks, the rest of the Black Order look like shit.

Mister Six

I thought the Black Order looked fine, but it was a total waste of Carrie Coon, who is a superb actor (cf. The Leftovers).

Quote from: colacentral on April 21, 2021, 09:39:06 AM
From looking around further, it looks like the big problem with Black Panther's CGI in the big fight at the end is that it was reshot and the effects team only had a few weeks to do it.

Ah, that'll be it, then, although I remember there being other occasions where the CGI was crap (I think when Daniel Kaluaa is seen with the pet rhinos - maybe Disney wanted the rhinos redesigned to be cuter for toy purposes).

greenman

I'm guessing they might have saved some money with the last two Avengers films shooting them back to back although I suspect Marvel generally probably saves money from having certain production elements almost consistently in use.

Mister Six

Quote from: colacentral on April 20, 2021, 07:20:30 PM
My feeling about the shockingly bad CGI in Black Panther is that all the Marvel budget around that period was going into Infinity War / Endgame, which were filming at the same time and, obviously, Thanos was what they were most concerned about getting right.

Sorry, you were kind of right here - not a budget thing, but apparently the better CGI talent was shunted off BP and onto Infinity War. Plus the late re-dos, as you mentioned.

mothman

Quote from: Mister Six on April 21, 2021, 01:36:00 PM
I thought the Black Order looked fine, but it was a total waste of Carrie Coon, who is a superb actor (cf. The Leftovers).

Yeah, one for a "most disappointing/wasted use of a major talent in a film" thread. Didn't she only do motion capture work (and voice work?) for IW, but not EG?

Mister Six

Yeah, I think her character was just seen in the background in EG. Oh well, hopefully all the makeup/CGI means she can be recast in a proper role that gives her more to do.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

They squandered the likes of Glenn Close, John C Riley and Michael Stuhlbarg on smaller roles. In the flesh, too.

mothman

JCR's role in GotG1 was fairly significant, as a role in itself... but it didn't really make best use of his talents, granted, so could have been played by anyone. Stuhlbarg is such a chameleonic actor I don't notice it's him half the time so it was news to me he's in DrS. Close in GotG1 was more of a cameo really - otherwise it's like saying Stallone was wasted in GotG2, and that was definitely a cameo (with a bit of worldbuilding if they want to bring him back later).