Tip jar

If you like CaB and wish to support it, you can use PayPal or KoFi. Thank you, and I hope you continue to enjoy the site - Neil.

Buy Me a Coffee at ko-fi.com

Support CaB

Recent

Welcome to Cook'd and Bomb'd. Please login or sign up.

March 28, 2024, 11:23:28 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Another cookery thread (call that a spiraliser?!)

Started by TrenterPercenter, April 22, 2021, 05:29:44 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on April 29, 2021, 01:29:42 PM
What a load of old unchillied cobblers.  Of course certain dishes have set ingredients that is what recipes are about; you can of course add what you like to them but you don't then call a cheesecake made out of ham an "authentic" cheesecake.  This isn't the free speech movement of food; no one is not allowed to experiment or add things to dishes as and when they please but you can't just go into bologna and say the fact they have historically made a world famous sauce one way in particular is "a problem".

I just made some authentic Indian kulfi out of angel delight how dare they tell me what is traditional or not.

As PC has alluded to there is history and geography to food which has a lot to do with climate and trade; the fusion that occurs between culture and cooking styles is great and there is space for both - no-one, literally no-one, is saying you can't do that but if want to make an authentic dish which can be quite specific to an area then you have to approximate that tradition.  tradition can of course be my families tradition or my hometown EH??! that is what tradition is about?! with big things like Bolognese that become some popular that they become collectivised; internationalised; yet still having more specific variations around a set template; that is no chilli in this case.

Imagine ordering "a traditional English breakfast" and getting served a KFC with some smiley faces; "this is what is traditional now you elitist cookery cunt, and I hope you choke on it for the all the fusion dishes you have oppressed over the years!" you are told as the bucket slaps against your head.

It's just tedious.

TrenterPercenter

#61
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on April 29, 2021, 01:37:43 PM
It's just tedious.

"I just find all these cultures with their claims of traditions and authentic recipes tedious"

what are you the Nigel Farage of Food?

Why is authenticity suddenly a bad thing; it's a really weird take if you ask me; if you are not making a traditional dish then don't call it traditional is the obvious solution but then it begs the question why this animosity to those that try to emulate traditional recipes.

Btw the original stems regarding the bolognese is that adding chilli to bolognese is a completely different flavour profile; southern ragus tend to have more tomatoes with chilli because acidity and chilli is a great sensation and taste combination but Northern ragu use less tomatoes and have more of a creamy intense savoury flavour - they are two completely different things and there is very much room for both.

Sebastian Cobb

I'm not dismissing culture I'm dismissing pedantry surrounding strict adherence to arbitrary rules.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on April 29, 2021, 02:08:42 PM
I'm not dismissing culture I'm dismissing pedantry surrounding strict adherence to arbitrary rules.

You don't think food is part of culture?  I'm not disagreeing with pedantry being a thing but what is being a pedant about accepting that authentic bolognese sauce doesn't have chillis in it?  I think if someone says I refuse to eat something that isn't an exact authentic recipe then fair enough but these people are far and few whilst people that just want to experience as part of culture; traditional food from regions is well fine......and if the point is being a pendant is annoying then refusing to accept authenticity as an important aspect of traditions and culture because some bellend once dissed your lamb falafel then I can recommend a good window cleaner for your glass house if need be.

You'll find a lot of people from migrant communities hold authentic, traditional cuisine and the practices that accompany them as important connections to the idea of home and I can't see why people would have a problem with this or see it as threatening.

Sebastian Cobb

It's not usually someone from that culture doing the policing or claiming adherence is important.

But when I cook and eat a meal I don't really consider it 'experiencing culture' even though many cultures are built around mealtimes, it's too isolated and I would need something more immersive to consider it coming anywhere near a cultural experience.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on April 29, 2021, 02:44:43 PM
It's not usually someone from that culture doing the policing or claiming adherence is important.

But when I cook and eat a meal I don't really consider it 'experiencing culture' even though many cultures are built around mealtimes, it's too isolated and I would need something more immersive to consider it coming anywhere near a cultural experience.

Firstly, yes it is; it is usually people from the culture that traditions come from that preserve and uphold those traditions; this of course is probably most typified by the the idea of peoples "Nonna's" and "Nonno's" recipes (also of course both traditional Chinese/Indian food is very different from what most people would think are these cuisines and it's these people that are most proud of this).  Secondly that is just insane to feel you are being "policed"........say you like chilli in your authentic Bolognese these days and you get arrested and thrown in a jail.  What a strange worldview to take.  Adherence is important; IF you are trying to create something authentic; that is the whole point (that seem to be continually ignoring).

Also what on earth is this now; oh making another cultures food simply isn't enough for me to be experiencing culture I need to book tickets to a Tibetan woodshack to eat it out of handwoven bowl whilst listening the furtive mating activities of the wild yaks in the distance.  No shit that eating a meal isn't a complete cultural experience; its an approximation though isn't it; that is why learning about techniques and recipes from cultures that are generally (though not always) traditional not only is about eating the food but understanding the history around that food.   Food and cuisine are massive elements of culture that are predated on people lives and accessibility in regions so bothering to understand why isn't an elitist or snobby thing; presuming people have access to acquiring "full cultural experiences" by going to an actual place is however.  If someone wants to try and emulate a traditional meal of region or place and understand the regional ingredients of said place then this is not equivalent to taking a "gap yah" there; it's having a go at cooking something as is traditionally cited.  How you have managed to go this full cycle this snobbery, which for some reason is preferable to just accepting that people in Bologna don't put chilli in their ragu, is quite brilliant.  Fair play.


good food fight chat and I don't want this to get heated but I will find you and create a traditional congee out your carcass if you don't recognise how silly you are being.

Sebastian Cobb

It's just dinner mate. If I've made a nice Italian meal I'm not thinking anything other than "mmm this dinner's lovely". Ideally I've managed to block out the surroundings and the people I'm with to focus on shovelling it in to my horrid mouth and enjoying the food on a visceral level.

Fr.Bigley

Why don't you all stop being Fanny's and just have a nice Fray Bentos?

steve98

QUICK TIP for pizza fans visiting Naples: always carry a little tub of your favourite  toppings (ham, peas, Chinese wings, whatever) with you, when you're out exploring.

Fr.Bigley

Quote from: steve98 on April 29, 2021, 04:28:28 PM
QUICK TIP for pizza fans visiting Naples: always carry a little tub of your favourite  toppings (ham, peas, wings, whatever) with you, when you're out discoverin'.

This is EXCELLENT advice. More of what we need, practical consumer advice for the savvy traveller (not gypo).

Please feel free to contact me about Fray Bentos or future Fray Bentos.

Sebastian Cobb

Do they plan to change the filling from dog food at any point in the future?

Will they bring back the chicken curry one?

Fr.Bigley

There will be a public consultation regarding the addition of hoisin crispy arse Fray Bentos in the summer.

Canine stew flavour, remains.

TrenterPercenter

#72
Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on April 29, 2021, 03:53:47 PM
It's just dinner mate. If I've made a nice Italian meal I'm not thinking anything other than "mmm this dinner's lovely". Ideally I've managed to block out the surroundings and the people I'm with to focus on shovelling it in to my horrid mouth and enjoying the food on a visceral level.

I agree of course; it is just if someone went to the trouble of making a me a traditional dish (and heaven forfend they weren't strickly the same origin as where the dish was from but got it from a traditional recipe) I wouldn't feel threatened by it; I'd still go about my day not feeling policed and oppressive guilt about that time I bastardised a trifle by putting rum in it and not sherry in it.

Moving on..ish, I'd say the main contention here is chillies which have become such an internationally successful ingredient that as ingredients go does pair well with lots of things (because of it's sensational qualities) it finds itself in a lot of places.  Now can I just shock you, I like chillies, despite what I said earlier, never at anytime have I not got 10-20 different varieties of chillies in my house (true) I just think that with success comes an abuse of the ingredient.  it's just become an easy, lazy ingredient to add to things; spicy cottage pie, spicy bolognese, spicy mash, spicy vodka...you get the picture I just get incredibly bored as someone that eats chillis all the time to have this flavour and heat thrown in all of the time; it's just got a bit ubiquitous and yes that is because it is bloody great.  It's a great flavour but it is a very dominant one that quickly takes over more subtle flavours chucking it into everything because you like chillies is like chucking beans into everything because you like beans - only chillies are still considered exotic so are interesting and experimental whilst putting beans in everything would just make you seem like an obsessive.

If you put an authentic bolognese sauce next to a collaborative fusion of a bit of everything with tomatoes and chilli you'll notice a massive difference; they are incredibly different things; because as mentioned bolognese is about vegetables and creamy meats it's delicate and smooth not acidic and spicy; it's about velvety balance and sticking chilli in it takes it somewhere else that is why people disagree with putting chilli in it; you want to put it in everything and enjoy that chilli flavour be my guest but you are not doing anything avant garde; spicy food is literally everywhere (I've also had a lot of vegetarians say this in that they love spicy food but a lot of tokenistic veggie food is just stick some chilli in it in place of doing any real cooking - of course this doesn't mean they still don't like a curry or bowl of chilli when it's on offer really cooking is still done with using chillies).

I really would question who is doing "it's just the way I like it" if someone comes to my house for dinner I'll cook us all a recipe that I think they will like from a book that is tried and tested recipe and interesting; I won't just make food I'd make for myself all the time because that is food for me by me and to my preferences which is much more "my way" and less considerate.


TrenterPercenter


Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on April 29, 2021, 04:43:04 PM
For the veggies.

Based on the meat I've had in Fray Bentos' I'm not sure that's really true.

Fr.Bigley

Ah I ask you gentlemen from refering to Fray Bentos in a libelous manner on pain of lawsuit.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Fr.Bigley on April 29, 2021, 04:47:59 PM
Ah I ask you gentlemen from refering to Fray Bentos in a libelous manner on pain of lawsuit.

Pain of arsetubes more like.

steve98

Check out the amazing puffiness of the pastry on that Balti shit. Like anyone, in the REAL world's ever been able to achieve anything like that. Ever.

Quote from: Fr.Bigley on April 29, 2021, 04:47:59 PM
Ah I ask you gentlemen from refering to Fray Bentos in a libelous manner on pain of lawsuit.

Piss off. I agree with the poster who said it's dog-meat in your pies (Uruguayan dog-meat.)

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

Quote from: steve98 on April 29, 2021, 04:28:28 PM
QUICK TIP for pizza fans visiting Naples: always carry a little tub of your favourite  toppings (ham, peas, Chinese wings, whatever) with you, when you're out exploring.
Pineapple.

Now there is a ridiculously arbitrary food controversy.

Gurke and Hare

The "Nonna's recipe" thing absolutely highlights the extent to which the authenticity policing[nb]And don't be silly, "policing" is clearly the applicable word when some arsehole on the internet tells someone who never actually claimed authenticity off for putting a bit of chilli in their dinner.[/nb] is bullshit. If two Bologna nonnas have different recipes, which is authentic? Is the other a disgrace to Bologna?

Shoulders?-Stomach!

This is Trenter's thread, so up to him where he wants it to go, but are we sharing recipes or having rich meaty emulsifying discussions about the likes of the values of authenticity and cultural terroir?

Can do either

steve98

Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on April 29, 2021, 04:58:12 PM
Pineapple.

Now there is a ridiculously arbitrary food controversy.

Yeah. And take a small tub of pepper (35p ASDA) along with you (traditional Naples pizzerias won't serve pepper), and get the waiter, for a selfie, to play along that it's really one of these metre long grinder whoppers! Haha, they luv it.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Gurke and Hare on April 29, 2021, 05:00:18 PM
The "Nonna's recipe" thing absolutely highlights the extent to which the authenticity policing[nb]And don't be silly, "policing" is clearly the applicable word when some arsehole on the internet tells someone who never actually claimed authenticity off for putting a bit of chilli in their dinner.[/nb] is bullshit. If two Bologna nonnas have different recipes, which is authentic? Is the other a disgrace to Bologna?

Neither Nonna from Bologna will be putting chilli in their Bolognese and calling it authentic you silly sausage.

Also I see you

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on November 28, 2020, 10:38:48 AM
Adding chilli is fine if you want a spicy ragu but you really don't need to worry about much else in what you are doing in this case. 

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on April 29, 2021, 05:07:09 PM
This is Trenter's thread, so up to him where he wants it to go, but are we sharing recipes or having rich meaty emulsifying discussions about the likes of the values of authenticity and cultural terroir?

Can do either

Both, call it a "fusion".


Been waiting for Shoulders to come in and tell us all how unimportant traditional beer making is.

Cuellar

I know someone with a bolognese nonna and she puts chili in her bolognese

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Cuellar on April 29, 2021, 06:11:28 PM
I know someone with a bolognese nonna and she puts chili in her bolognese

No you don't you cretin; and the point is they wouldn't call it traditional bolognese they would call it Nonna's version; the point about Nonna's and Nonno's was they would be the people talking about "tradition" which was a separate issue about Cobbs apparent belief that only people that are not from a cuisines culture are bothered about it's tradition which is palpable shit eating dog noncery.

I'll point out again no-one at any point has said you can't put whatever shite you want in your ragu.

Fr.Bigley

If you put chillies in a Bolognese/Ragu..you've essentially got arabbiata. And that is a thing. War over.

mothman

If you like pepper in/on your ragu, then adding a spot of chilli is fine - it's just a more rounded flavour.


mothman

I made a Thai pork mince dish tonight but had no curry paste so added chipotle paste instead. Fusion, baby!