OnlyFans and horses work.

[Zetetic]

Fake edit, already been done:
https://github.com/nsfw-filter/nsfw-filter

The default model for this is rather aggressive. Trenter's avatar doesn't survive for example; is it doing anything for anyone?

[TrenterPercenter]

Having said that I personally find (as a straight woman) the idea of male strippers really cringe, and that's not coming from a SWERF-y or morally disapproving perspective at all, but I feel there might be something of the commodification of women's sexuality[nb]Obviously I realise it's not just cishet women that might be interested in male strippers[/nb] that you mention in there - as in, it feels like someone's idea of what women should be getting off on, in a "permitted" environment

Who do you think is permitting the environment? I always took it as more it's what men do (and as mentioned they really don't in my experience; but then I don't hang around or aspire to hang around with those kind of rich folk - more about that in a minute) so let's do that also.

I mean, it's hardly a coincidence that these shows are often booked for hen parties and 30th birthday celebrations and the like. It's as if these are rare occasions when women are as a novelty permitted to be openly pervy[nb]I'm not using that  term in a judgmental sense, I just mean in the sense of "openly lusting over someone's physical attractiveness"[/nb], as opposed to all the countless instances where men are given permission to be pervy which are basically just accepted as part of the furniture of day-to-day society.

I just don't understand where this notion "permission" comes from; I'd imagine the commodification of women to men is the real culprit here and because of the money that can be made from it industries and infrastructure has been created.  This isn't free sex that men are patted on the back to take part in, it's entertainment; for a cost; it's business and as such there is a certain amount of marketing that accompanies these things.  This is also pertinent to Onlyfans in which there is money to be made out of lonely men on the internet so women do it (I'm sure some actually do enjoy the work but I don't think many would do it without pay).  I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this but that is the way it works and sustains itself; if there were a sufficient market for male strip clubs and male Onlyfans performers they would exist. It isn't a matter of permission imo.

I've got a few male friends in the financial industry and even fairly tame weeknight work nights out with them would inevitably end up in Spearmint Rhino, because that's just what you do, apparently.

I'm 40 years old (just!) and I have been to one strip club in my life; on a stag do; under duress of one member of the group to which we agreed because all the other bars were closed and we couldn't be bothered to walk the other end of town; we were in there for 20 minutes it was god awful and awkward (a group of 30 something mainly married men not wanting to take part in the main reason for the place existing and pissing off the women in there because of it is not fun) so we walked to the other end of town in the rain.  Whilst in there the lad who suggested it though was in his element; I've never met him before but earlier in the night he gave me his card......he was a golf instructor. 

I'm just saying it is in no way "the norm" for men (it might be acceptable but that is different) to go to strip clubs; it is common for wanky rich people to use their money to acquire things they ultimately don't need; so they buy god awful clothes (I've worked in the menswear stores); expensive bottles of booze (I've worked behind the bar serving them) and women (I've danced.....just kidding ;).  These men you talk of may well be representative of men like them but it's important to not view whole groups of people by the worst examples and there is something very particular about rich people and their sexual politics. In these groups I've found it largely supported across the sexes i.e. there is traditionalism that is adopted because these groups have the most to lose from progressive ideas around gender.

[Kankurette]

I thought it was only the norm in certain circles, like City bankers or Premier League footballers. I've only seen female strippers btw (not sure if burlesque counts but that's another thread altogether). Not male ones. Hell, I've stripped at friends' parties when I was doing burlesque classes, back when burlesque was trendy in the 00s, though I never did get to perform at our teacher's club night. Not done normal stripping myself because you have to be physically very strong to do it (I went to pole classes for a bit and they wrecked my body) and able to walk in heels. And thin.

[MoreauVasz]

I feel there might be something of the commodification of women's sexuality[nb]Obviously I realise it's not just cishet women that might be interested in male strippers[/nb] that you mention in there - as in, it feels like someone's idea of what women should be getting off on, in a "permitted" environment

This is just capitalism tho surely?

All sex work, from BDSM sessions is posh hotels down to people selling footage of themselves walking in flip-flops whilst having long toenails functions on the basis of commodifying human desire. Taking a feeling that most of us have in one form or another and placing a monetary value on it.

As for the assumptions made as to what women should find sexy? That's the mechanic underlying most adverts. I remember a while back, I lost a load of weight and I happened to be taking a train so I popped into a Smiths and they had one of those huge bars of chocolate for a pound promotions and the person at the till pushed it quite hard at me. I was annoyed by this because I felt like an assumption was being made that I was a fat cunt who would love to fill my face with half a kilo of Dairy Milk, which was true but it was something I was trying to get away from. Anyway, on the way out of the shop I looked back and saw the person at the till giving the same speech to someone else.

Ten years later and I see that mechanism everywhere. Wine vouchers from Amazon assume I buy wine. Adverts for superhero films assume I'm invested in Tony Spark or whatever his name is. I agree that it is super irksome but capitalism works like a dragnet. Everyone assumes that what they are offering speaks to some fundamental human desire because... I dunno... If you don't ask, you don't get.

The more interesting question is why male stripping takes the form it does (because businesses are Conservative and so everyone apes existing stuff) but the sane is true of all forms of monetised sexual stuff. When it comes to sex stuff there is definitely a balancing act: On the one hand, there's always pressure to innovate in a crowded marketplace but,oon the other hand, there are taboos surrounding what are publically acceptable forms of sexuality. Often unacceptable forms creep out, like the vogue in anime for stories about little girls and misery memoirs about vulnerable children being repeatedly penetrated by priests.

I have a sneaking suspicion that there's a goldmine waiting for the first person to breakthrough with an erotic novel aimed at men that revolves around stuff like cuckolding and forced feminisation but the organs of capitalist extraction aren't quite ready for that same as the fact that they're not ready for stripping that isn't oiled and shaved himbos thrusting.

[Retinend]

This is just capitalism tho surely?

All sex work, from BDSM sessions is posh hotels down to people selling footage of themselves walking in flip-flops whilst having long toenails functions on the basis of commodifying human desire. Taking a feeling that most of us have in one form or another and placing a monetary value on it.

What's the difference between "commodifying" human desire and simply "selling" it, in your theory?

[MoreauVasz]

What's the difference between "commodifying" human desire and simply "selling" it, in your theory?

To commodify something is to transform it into something that can be sold. This can be an internal process (people viewing water as something you have to buy as opposed to scoop out of a free flowing river) or it can be  an external process (taking water, sticking it in bottles so that it can be sold in physical shops).  But the term also applies to the way that something becomes homogenised by market forces.

So if I offer you oral sex for a tenner, I'm selling my purty mouth. If I change myself to look conventionally attractive in order to sell more oral sex, I'm commodifying my purty mouth.

TLDR: depends, it's complicated.

[Retinend]

Ah I see. Commodification is like "marketing", or rather, manufacturing want.

Yet presumably you're not saying that sex should be like a free-flowing river that all take from? All prostitution is necessarily marketed/commodified, surely - not OnlyFans in particular.

[TrenterPercenter]

A bit of Marx might help here; a commodity is something that has both labour value and an exchange value.  The latter is important because it is what someone is willing to pay for it and can be manipulated for instant; marketing; exclusivity or actually on the other end of the scale making it cheap and undercutting it labour value (you know like people in sweatshops getting paid fuck all so that you can buy cheap tat).  We understand commodification as the process of manipulating this exchange value.

MoreauVasz it is capitalism but that isn't to say that the history of capitalism is not entwined with a history of patriarchial thinking; capitalism was largely designed by and this is the important thing to remember by powerful men with an offer to enter a hierarchical agreement with other men.  Some people seem to talk about sexism as if it is some bottom up process when men have behaved the way they do because they have been instructed and influenced by a system that wants to keep itself intact.

[MoreauVasz]

I guess it's a collection of processes through which stuff becomes product. That does include marketing as you say, but it also includes packaging and the more subtle process of everyone just accepting that a thing becomes something you buy.

I don't have a problem with onlyfans, or sex work in and of themselves. I think if someone wants a particular fantasy and someone else is willing to play along for money then that's great in so far as it's no different to any other form of work. And like all forms of work it is monstrous and cruel and dehumanising.

[flotemysost]

Oh I wasn't suggesting for one second that all men love strip clubs or anything, I know that's not the case at all (although at the same time I wouldn't say that someone is "the worst example" of their demographic because they go to a strip club, I wasn't judging punters either). There definitely are comparisons to be drawn between the commodification of things aimed respectively at men and women - one one hand you could just argue that it's two sides of the same coin and it's essentially all just stuff being marketed towards demographics who are being told that they should want/need X thing - however I do think there's a significant difference here.

The whole male stripper thing definitely seems to be occupy a space culturally where it's seen as more of a jokey novelty, a naughty treat (hence my mentioning the prevalence of hen parties, birthdays etc. in audiences), whereas with Spearmint Rhino and the like, yes it's still absolutely a commodified transaction from start to finish (and this extends to the dancers too, as most clubs require them to pay a significant house fee out of their earnings), but overall it just feels a lot more... serious and humourless. That's not to say you don't get crowds of wasted braying idiotic men acting up and pissing around, I'm sure it's a nightly occurrence, but it seems more obvious that lots of the punters are there specifically to get off rather than have a laugh with their mates.

I remember going to a strip club in the West End with some friends once (as a bit of a novelty/curiosity, admittedly) and one of the dancers there was apparently an adult film performer, who had a little fan base of solo blokes who'd showed up to watch her bit, in stony-faced silence, then went home when the next dancers came on. Like there was no shame in it at all (I'm not saying there should be), whereas with male strippers (admittedly I've never actually seen any) there definitely seems to be more of a "ooerr, nudge wink" jokiness about the whole thing. Of course in reality, speak to any stripper or sex worker and they most likely will have come across the whole gamut of punters, from aggressively forward to those who just want to chat about the weather, but it's the contrast in how male and female punters are popularly perceived which I find notable.

Who do you think is permitting the environment? I always took it as more it's what men do (and as mentioned they really don't in my experience; but then I don't hang around or aspire to hang around with those kind of rich folk - more about that in a minute) so let's do that also.

I suppose this is sort of what I meant by talking about "permission" - it feels like another instance of how the male gaze is unquestioningly treated as part of the furniture of culture/society (although that doesn't mean it's immune to being cashed in on massively, of course - hence the macho workplace cultures where men are expected to go to and enjoy these places), but in many people's minds a direct female equivalent doesn't really exist - it's still just a bit of an unthreatening joke, wearing pink deely boppers and L-plates. A woman punter is seen as the exception not the norm, and even then it's most likely to be viewed as under the pretext of a performatively "outrageous" activity (i.e. the permission to do something that men are unquestioningly permitted, even expected to do). To be clear, I'm talking about how I think these things are generally viewed and presented in popular culture, I'm not saying they are necessarily accurate reflections of what people actually want.

I hope none of the above comes across as SWERF-y or shaming anyone for visiting strip clubs, as I don't mean that at all.

Edit: obviously it goes without saying that all the above dated expectations and ideas are incredibly heteronormative too.

[Kankurette]

Not at all, you're right. One can criticise the culture around strip clubs without attacking strippers. I don't think you're a SWERF if, like me, you're disgusted at the way some punters treat strippers. Bosses as well.

[Fr.Bigley]

Oh I wasn't suggesting for one second that all men love strip clubs or anything.

Yer dad does.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Now this is weird but I think the blame is probably on The Sun.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

To be fair if he looks hard enough there's probably enough shrapnel between the cushions there to buy himself a BMX.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

[Fr.Bigley]

Imagine being your mums pimp. What a fucking time we live in.

[JamesTC]

Get your tits out mum there is a new playstation out

[The Culture Bunker]

The story is creepy enough in itself, but that in both pics he seems to be staring at his mother's chest makes it doubly "urgh".

[JamesTC]

One man's chest is another man's £££

[Retinend]

talk about a treasure chest

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Imagine when he discovers how much people will pay to hold him down and violently bum him. It's like getting paid to go to prison!

[Huxleys Babkins]

[Retinend]

Imagine when he discovers how much people will pay to hold him down and violently bum him. It's like getting paid to go to prison!

What are you smoking?

[Mr Banlon]

The story is creepy enough in itself, but that in both pics he seems to be staring at his mother's chest makes it doubly "urgh".

Wait till you hear what he used to do to them when he was a baby.

[JamesTC]

He got his mum to charge other babies for a go on them. For extra pocket money.

[Dex Sawash]

#everyday misevrythngy

[Retinend]

"bitty"

[greenman]

Oh I wasn't suggesting for one second that all men love strip clubs or anything, I know that's not the case at all (although at the same time I wouldn't say that someone is "the worst example" of their demographic because they go to a strip club, I wasn't judging punters either). There definitely are comparisons to be drawn between the commodification of things aimed respectively at men and women - one one hand you could just argue that it's two sides of the same coin and it's essentially all just stuff being marketed towards demographics who are being told that they should want/need X thing - however I do think there's a significant difference here.

The whole male stripper thing definitely seems to be occupy a space culturally where it's seen as more of a jokey novelty, a naughty treat (hence my mentioning the prevalence of hen parties, birthdays etc. in audiences), whereas with Spearmint Rhino and the like, yes it's still absolutely a commodified transaction from start to finish (and this extends to the dancers too, as most clubs require them to pay a significant house fee out of their earnings), but overall it just feels a lot more... serious and humourless. That's not to say you don't get crowds of wasted braying idiotic men acting up and pissing around, I'm sure it's a nightly occurrence, but it seems more obvious that lots of the punters are there specifically to get off rather than have a laugh with their mates.

I remember going to a strip club in the West End with some friends once (as a bit of a novelty/curiosity, admittedly) and one of the dancers there was apparently an adult film performer, who had a little fan base of solo blokes who'd showed up to watch her bit, in stony-faced silence, then went home when the next dancers came on. Like there was no shame in it at all (I'm not saying there should be), whereas with male strippers (admittedly I've never actually seen any) there definitely seems to be more of a "ooerr, nudge wink" jokiness about the whole thing. Of course in reality, speak to any stripper or sex worker and they most likely will have come across the whole gamut of punters, from aggressively forward to those who just want to chat about the weather, but it's the contrast in how male and female punters are popularly perceived which I find notable.

I spose its always going to be a bit of a generalisation but the impression of strip shows for women does seem to be that the draw is more being open about your casual sexual attraction in an environment were its not looked down on. You could argue the male equivalent doesnt exist as much because men being open about sexual attraction is looked down on much less by society and there are far more chances for them to do it elsewhere as a result.

That does seem to translate into there being less of a link between strip shows and playing on someone having a more serious infatuation for women but I wouldn't say that means the latter doesnt exist. I mean there is certainly an industry that exists to play on womens infatuation with male celebs for a very long time and if anything Onlyfans to me seems like as much of an extension of lifestyle magazines as it does playboy.

[AllisonSays]

I used to work in a restaurant - bit of a grandiose name for it really, it was more like a shithole - where we served 'traditional British fare', notably sausages and mash, sausages and chips, sausages and burgers, etc. Pies, gravy, mushy peas. Varieties of mash, varieties of sausage. Anyway. It had a kind of rockabilly theme, like an old American diner look. One of the waitresses in the restaurant was herself a kind of rockabilly revivalist, petite, pale, dark-haired woman with loads of tatts and, like, bright red lipstick; I guess a pre-drugs Amy Winehouse kind of look. She was very pretty. At the same time every week, this old geezer used to come in, basically just to have a bit of crack on with this waitress. He always left a massive tip.

It was hard to parse or separate the extent to which he was perving on her - which he definitely was, a bit - and the extent to which he was lonely and desirous of company, crack, amusement, friendliness, a veneer of intimacy or whatever. I've seen similar dynamics with regulars and barmaids, and know of similar dynamics from a friend who worked in a strip club.

I suppose what I'm trying to get at here is that in my experience (and from what I've been told), a lot of this kind of work - including OnlyFans - is about the performance of intimacy and warmth and affection as much as it is about sex and sexuality, insofar as those two things can be separated.

[Kankurette]

Pimping your mum out? That's...an interesting family dynamic.

AllisonSays, some sex workers have had clients who just want company. Someone to talk to. I find the emotional side draining, having to pretend to care about these men, and I only did stuff online, but some people are good talkers and listeners.