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OnlyFans and horses work.

Started by Fry, April 30, 2021, 05:50:51 PM

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bomb_dog

Can't remember who said it, may have been someone here, but I think there's some horrible truth in 'it depends who is enjoying it more' - if the bloke watching is enjoying it, it's stripping, if the act is enjoying it, it's burlesque.

Edit: oh twat it's a new page

flotemysost

Quote from: Blue Jam on May 10, 2021, 12:29:48 PM
I think you're right, flotemysost, the whole thing of women hiring a stripper seems a bit giggly and naughty, like a little treat they're permitted to have under certain circumstances (but still shouldn't let themselves enjoy too much), whereas lapdancing clubs have become so normalised that men seem to feel no shame just walking into one and in some workplaces men even consider them an appropriate venue for a business meeting and see attempts to move them to somewhere more appropriate like a restaurant as an overreaction. Hen dos seem to treat sex as a bit of a joke, with all the inflatable penises and novelty penis-shaped things you can buy for them, it's like it's not meant to be sexy, sex is just something you're supposed to dismiss and laugh at rather than admit you actually really enjoy.

Yep, that's bang on what I was getting at.

I don't know a huge amount about burlesque, I do quite like some of the looks, but as others have mentioned there definitely seemed to be (maybe a few years ago now) a bit of verging-on-SWERF-y snobbery about burlesque vs. stripping.

I've done a few pole dancing classes, I enjoyed it (though I wasn't very good) but I prefer the more athletic type to the "exotic" style (that's not a sexual euphemism, it's just a bit more graceful and elegant, and I'm neither of those things.) You do need to be quite fit and have good core strength to do even the basic tricks.

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on May 10, 2021, 07:33:37 PM
I guess it is more than stripping, with the fact the moves are properly planned and choreographed to a piece of music, thought goes into the correct get-up etc. Not sure it quite counts as high art though.

I'd disagree that strippers don't have to put lots of thought into their moves, outfits and makeup etc. - each shift (from what I've heard) is essentially a hustle and you're only as good as your next tip (given that you have to pay a sizeable chunk of your nightly earnings back to the club), generally clubs tend to put more girls than are "needed" on each shift, so you really have to work at it to grab punters' attention. And as mentioned above there's definitely a skill to the pole stuff too.


Catalogue Trousers

Do all strippers get on the pole? Going by the one strip club that I've visited in my life, probably not. It was - surprise - for a friend's stag night: the general impression that I got was that there were definitely pole dancers and there were definitely also lap/table dancers. The simple deduction that might be made is that pole dancers do appeal more to those with a thing for athletic if not outright muscular women - they tend to be lithe hardbody types without that much in the way of 'typically' feminine curves - while the latter, despite usually being pretty fit (in the health rather than aesthetic sense) themselves, are more about the typical hourglass look - full hips, big tits stuff. For the record, I was very taken with one dancer who looked almost like an anime/hentai girl made flesh - petite, slim, yet with a disproportionately huge rack. I did arrange for a private dance with her, during which we just chatted in a friendly way. She did allow me (gawd knows why - maybe she just liked me?) to do a certain amount of touching and even squeezing and licking, which I won't pretend that I didn't enjoy, but odd and slightly Partridge-like as it may sound we just generally talked fart about ourselves - she was a Law student, of all things, and probably had a higher IQ than me. (Oh, and that almost cartoonish physique did owe something to cosmetic surgery, but it was at least well-done, and even felt real. The wonders of modern Technology.)

I have no problems with men or women enjoying strippers or burlesque performers of any kind: but oddly, with the dancer I was mentioning, while it might have been nice for her to be talking dirty if we'd, say, been sharing a bed and gettin' it on, in the context of a strip club I genuinely felt happier speaking with her on an informal, friendly level rather than just staring at her and licking my lips as though contemplating a piece of meat. I say this not to try and prove what a helluva guy I am, but to wonder if - maybe -  that feeling of friendly connection is what really matters in a strip club, rather than blunt leching. Just wondering.

willbo

I just can't believe that testosterone more than socialisation isn't the cause for men being overwhelmingly the ones who consume porn, sex work, strip clubs etc. The amount of anecdotal experience I've read online, from bodybuilders, transmen, and anyone who has had a raise in male hormones, that they got hornier, is too much. Combined with the male desperation I've seen in clubs, bars, online, female friends who've joined a message board only to get 1000s of private messages, the lengths men go to, to get porn or visit parlours/clubs etc. I wouldn't make a crusade over it - proving Gender essential traits isn't something I want to devote my time to - but privately I don't believe I'll ever be convinced male horniness doesn't have a physical aspect.

Catalogue Trousers

You may as well just say that horniness full stop, whether for men or women, has a physical aspect, though. You can admire someone for their mind, their sense of humour, their great personality, whatever, and all of those may be true - but, on some level, surely simple physical attraction is a key component for anyone.

Video Game Fan 2000

And you wonder why sapiosexuals don't want to post here.

greenman

Quote from: willbo on May 10, 2021, 08:32:52 PM
I just can't believe that testosterone more than socialisation isn't the cause for men being overwhelmingly the ones who consume porn, sex work, strip clubs etc. The amount of anecdotal experience I've read online, from bodybuilders, transmen, and anyone who has had a raise in male hormones, that they got hornier, is too much. Combined with the male desperation I've seen in clubs, bars, online, female friends who've joined a message board only to get 1000s of private messages, the lengths men go to, to get porn or visit parlours/clubs etc. I wouldn't make a crusade over it - proving Gender essential traits isn't something I want to devote my time to - but privately I don't believe I'll ever be convinced male horniness doesn't have a physical aspect.

Porn consumption at least I remember seeing a few articles suggesting its about 1/3 women these days but the big difference there I would say is that its something that can be done in private, I'd argue its more that male sexual desire is normalised in public. Again I suspect thats why you don't really have the equivlent of female strip shows because that kind of causal jokey sexuality is less frowned upon with men, theres much less sense of it being taboo.

In terms of the damage of sex work like porn or Onlyfans I'm guessing a very significant amount of it is women getting shamed by their social circle when its discovered what their doing? The typical "porn star turned born again christian" kind of story always seemed creepy to me, "stay with me and the blessed church or its back to hell with you Jezebel".

That does seem to cross over into what seems one of the nastiest aspects of porn consumption to me, men who seem to desire the idea of the women involved as "damaged goods", that viewing their degradation is exhorting power over them. The alt rightish parts of the net especially seem absolutely obsessed with this, up there with sharing "female teacher sleeps with student" stories.

Blue Jam

Quote from: Catalogue Trousers on May 10, 2021, 08:32:18 PM
For the record, I was very taken with one dancer who looked almost like an anime/hentai girl made flesh - petite, slim, yet with a disproportionately huge rack. I did arrange for a private dance with her, during which we just chatted in a friendly way. She did allow me (gawd knows why - maybe she just liked me?) to do a certain amount of touching and even squeezing and licking, which I won't pretend that I didn't enjoy, but odd and slightly Partridge-like as it may sound we just generally talked fart about ourselves - she was a Law student, of all things, and probably had a higher IQ than me.


flotemysost

Quote from: willbo on May 10, 2021, 08:32:52 PM
I just can't believe that testosterone more than socialisation isn't the cause for men being overwhelmingly the ones who consume porn, sex work, strip clubs etc. The amount of anecdotal experience I've read online, from bodybuilders, transmen, and anyone who has had a raise in male hormones, that they got hornier, is too much. Combined with the male desperation I've seen in clubs, bars, online, female friends who've joined a message board only to get 1000s of private messages, the lengths men go to, to get porn or visit parlours/clubs etc. I wouldn't make a crusade over it - proving Gender essential traits isn't something I want to devote my time to - but privately I don't believe I'll ever be convinced male horniness doesn't have a physical aspect.

Without going too deep down the road of arguing about inherent masculine/feminine traits, as that's a very emotive and loaded topic and one which will derail this whole thread if allowed to, I would say that with at least some of the behaviours you've identified there, I think many women are less ready to engage in some of this stuff for very practical and real reasons of either personal safety (that's not to say this stuff is never risky for men either), or as greenman says, society shaming and ostracising women for daring to admit that they have an interest in it.

There's also (as various posters have already said) the fact that strip clubs, massage parlours etc. are widely perceived without question to be spaces for male punters, to the point where in some circles they're just unquestioningly accepted as the setting for male bonding situations (which don't have any inherent sexual element) like work drinks or stag dos.

Likewise, it's only in relatively recent years (as far as I know) that it's generally widely accepted that a lot of women do watch porn, whereas I think previously there was an overwhelming sense of society/culture telling you "no, this isn't for you". I read an interview with the founder of a website which touts itself as "porn for women", and she said that the first time she visited one of the big popular streaming adult sites, she realised all the ad banners and pop ups were about penis enlargements, Viagra, meeting young Asian women near you, etc. - i.e. it was pretty clear the assumption was that women were not the target audience. But that doesn't mean the interest/desire isn't there, just that it's easy to feel alienated and put off.

I'm no expert in this stuff from a biological point of view, and I'm also very wary of saying something which could be unintentionally insensitive to or dismissive of any trans posters/readers, but I think it's an oversimplification to talk about "male horniness". As I've said, this warrants a whole other thread in itself (not one I really have the energy or inclination to see playing out, tbh) but I do think there are other factors at play there. I just find it kind of frustrating and disheartening whenever this gets raised, but as I said, this is at risk of spiralling off into a whole other debate so I'll leave it there.

Kankurette

I tried doing pole and it's not a lot of fun if you have fibromyalgia.

SWERF types don't like burlesque either tbh.

Retinend

#190
Quote from: flotemysost on May 11, 2021, 12:04:10 AMLikewise, it's only in relatively recent years (as far as I know) that it's generally widely accepted that a lot of women do watch porn, whereas I think previously there was an overwhelming sense of society/culture telling you "no, this isn't for you".

What does it even mean, "society tells you pornography isn't for you"? People don't follow cues from society in what turns them on. People consume porn in secret, and there are no gatekeepers to producing porn. Bewilderingly, as Jon Ronson has written about, "incest porn" is a massive search engine key word. You couldn't appall society more than by declaring your affinity for incest. Yet incest is huge in the porn industry.

Quote from: flotemysost on May 11, 2021, 12:04:10 AMI think it's an oversimplification to talk about "male horniness".

Sometimes the simple answer is the right one.

AllisonSays

Your thoughts are consumed in secret but that doesn't mean they're totally autonomous, right?

Retinend

I did a little clarification-edit of my last post while you posted, because I suddenly saw that it was a flawed wording.

Of course, you can never entirely shut out culture from the equation. Yes, if I fantasize about nurses it is because of the existence of the socially constructed category of "nurse", or rather a bouleversement of what that role represents for me (being under their authority and experiencing fear of mortality).

...but my point is that people aren't watching what others are doing and copying them, when it comes to porn consumption. They are going against the rules of society - doing something naughty that they shouldn't.

willbo

maybe it's not just about higher or lower sex drive though...but the speed/immediacy, like a penis/testicles are more designed for the immediate relief of an orgasm to porn/peep shows/quick escort trips, whereas a woman's sex drive can be higher, but...more slow-burning I suppose

Zetetic

Quote from: Retinend on May 11, 2021, 10:06:58 AM
What does it even mean, "society tells you pornography isn't for you"? People don't follow cues from society in what turns them on. People consume porn in secret, and there are no gatekeepers to producing porn.
And yet I'd wager that a huge amount of the pornography consumed is produced by a relatively small number of companies whose direction is determined by a relatively small number of people, even with the massive lowering of barriers and the expansion of the gig/independent market.

I wonder what the modern music market looks like, actually, even with the rise of Bandcamp and the like.

QuoteBewilderingly, as Jon Ronson has written about, "incest porn" is a massive search engine key word. You couldn't appall society more than by declaring your affinity for incest. Yet incest is huge in the porn industry.
I'm really curious if this is demand or supply driven, and whether the popularity of "incest" was driven by it serving a shorthand here for other things about the content (age-appearance, power differentials??).


Retinend

Quote from: Zetetic on May 11, 2021, 11:02:59 AM
I'm really curious if this is demand or supply driven, and whether the popularity of "incest" was driven by it serving a shorthand here for other things about the content (age-appearance, power differentials??).

Apparently, a fan of incest porn came up to Jon Ronson once, and wanted to correct him on his claim that incest porn's popularity was due to the people consuming its predilection to fantasize about incest.

He told him "the models are better looking".

And now I think of it, I think the topic was "stepbrothers" and "stepsisters" and so on - not incest per se. But it's the same heinous shit, normalizing sex within the family.

Sebastian Cobb

Funnily enough one of my pals who works at the Jobcentre mentioned in passing he's had a few people sign off the brew because they're making money on OF.

Make of that what you will.

Paul Calf

Fucking hell. Neoliberalism...

Kankurette

There was one far right activist who was revealed to have an incest kink and got some Twitter sex worker to roleplay his mum or something. One of the big name models in the kink I catered for had to do a roleplay where she was pretending to be some little boy's mum as well. I never got asked to do it. It's just...weird. Too League of Gentlemen.

flotemysost

Quote from: Retinend on May 11, 2021, 10:06:58 AM
What does it even mean, "society tells you pornography isn't for you"? People don't follow cues from society in what turns them on. People consume porn in secret, and there are no gatekeepers to producing porn. Bewilderingly, as Jon Ronson has written about, "incest porn" is a massive search engine key word. You couldn't appall society more than by declaring your affinity for incest. Yet incest is huge in the porn industry.

I didn't mean that society dictates what actually turns people on (well it probably does on some level, depending on how you look at it, as we're all products of our upbringing and environment etc., but that's not what I meant) - I meant that there are plenty of people  who think that no women are ever into in porn and it's specifically a "male thing". I've been told myself by more than one man that "women aren't visual" - which is obviously a huge assumption (and plainly wrong in many cases), but one which I think is informed and bolstered by how these things are presented and referred to in popular culture, although I do think that is changing.

To put it another way, as a girl, from a very young age, without even realising it, you're constantly taught that sex is something men will chase you for and it's your job to withold it from them for as long as possible. I'm not even talking particularly about religious or traditional upbringings - personally, I had a fully godless and pretty liberal, open minded childhood and education - but even then, there were so many subliminal little things like being taught to "sit nicely" with your legs together, make sure your skirt's a certain length, not respond to cat-callers, not sit on the seat directly in front of lone men on the bus in case they touch your hair (genuine advice I was given at 10 or 11), which can quite profoundly fuck up your relationship with this stuff further down the line (at least speaking from personal experience).

Of course some elements of that education are sadly practical advice for safety, but certainly in my generation, there never seemed to be much acknowledgement that as a girl/woman you might one day desire and want to seek out sex yourself, you're always cast in a very passive and vulnerable role. I think that probably plays a huge part in the reasons why women aren't as visible in seeking out sex.

Quote from: Kankurette on May 12, 2021, 02:22:43 PM
Too League of Gentlemen.

I mean, that would be an incredibly niche kink.

Video Game Fan 2000

I love people to pretend that sex acts have social content and luckily I was able to bribe the entirity of western society into indulging my sick fetish.

greenman

Quote from: flotemysost on May 12, 2021, 06:52:42 PM
I didn't mean that society dictates what actually turns people on (well it probably does on some level, depending on how you look at it, as we're all products of our upbringing and environment etc., but that's not what I meant) - I meant that there are plenty of people  who think that no women are ever into in porn and it's specifically a "male thing". I've been told myself by more than one man that "women aren't visual" - which is obviously a huge assumption (and plainly wrong in many cases), but one which I think is informed and bolstered by how these things are presented and referred to in popular culture, although I do think that is changing.

I'm guessing this does cover a certain degree of insecurity, basically pushing the idea women don't care about how men look so you don't need to bother with presenting yourself well. Maybe also insecurity that simply being viewed as physically sexy is somehow emasculating? something associated with women and gay men?

Again I'm guessing porn viewing is probably significantly different because its happening in private without the same degree of judgement on women showing sexual desire? searching it out 1/3 women viewers does seem to be what comes up along with women being much more likely to view same sex porn(male or female), I spose because its less likely to have the same kind of cliches/power dynamics of straight porn?

QuoteTo put it another way, as a girl, from a very young age, without even realising it, you're constantly taught that sex is something men will chase you for and it's your job to withold it from them for as long as possible. I'm not even talking particularly about religious or traditional upbringings - personally, I had a fully godless and pretty liberal, open minded childhood and education - but even then, there were so many subliminal little things like being taught to "sit nicely" with your legs together, make sure your skirt's a certain length, not respond to cat-callers, not sit on the seat directly in front of lone men on the bus in case they touch your hair (genuine advice I was given at 10 or 11), which can quite profoundly fuck up your relationship with this stuff further down the line (at least speaking from personal experience).

Of course some elements of that education are sadly practical advice for safety, but certainly in my generation, there never seemed to be much acknowledgement that as a girl/woman you might one day desire and want to seek out sex yourself, you're always cast in a very passive and vulnerable role. I think that probably plays a huge part in the reasons why women aren't as visible in seeking out sex.

Probably not helped by going to a Catholic school(dispite being CoE agnostic) but that was very much my experience  of sex education in the 90's, almost entirely focused on scaring the girls off of sex with bodyhorror stories/diagrams of coils gone wrong, wipe up the vomit and lead in the next class. Personally I do think theres too much willingness to accept alliance with more conservative influences as a whole when really sexual shame is surely a lot of the reason why sexual abuse is so damaging.

flotemysost

Quote from: greenman on May 12, 2021, 10:27:25 PM
I'm guessing this does cover a certain degree of insecurity, basically pushing the idea women don't care about how men look so you don't need to bother with presenting yourself well. Maybe also insecurity that simply being viewed as physically sexy is somehow emasculating? something associated with women and gay men?

Again I'm guessing porn viewing is probably significantly different because its happening in private without the same degree of judgement on women showing sexual desire? searching it out 1/3 women viewers does seem to be what comes up along with women being much more likely to view same sex porn(male or female), I spose because its less likely to have the same kind of cliches/power dynamics of straight porn?

I think increased access to broadband Internet and more people having their own private devices (i.e. smartphones, tablets or laptops) as opposed to a shared desktop computer with a dial-up Internet connection (which in itself is a relatively recent thing, and requires a degree of privilege - prior to that I guess it would just be jazz mags from the newsagent's. Which obviously requires a) the walk of shame to the till, and b) being able to reach the top shelf anyway) has probably made it easier for many people to explore porn without fear of discovery or judgement.

And as I mentioned, there are more sites these days which acknowledge that not everyone necessarily wants to see ads for Viagra and hot girls in your area, and are actually quite nicely designed, with an aesthetic that resembles a contemporary feminine lifestyle/magazine-type website (muted colour palette, sans serif fonts, no flashy banner ads at the sides) more than a stereotypical gaudy Web 1.0-type porn site.

Quote from: greenman on May 12, 2021, 10:27:25 PM
Probably not helped by going to a Catholic school(dispite being CoE agnostic) but that was very much my experience  of sex education in the 90's, almost entirely focused on scaring the girls off of sex with bodyhorror stories/diagrams of coils gone wrong, wipe up the vomit and lead in the next class. Personally I do think theres too much willingness to accept alliance with more conservative influences as a whole when really sexual shame is surely a lot of the reason why sexual abuse is so damaging.

Bloody hell. I never had anything that bad (as mentioned, I had a secular education) but there was still definitely a sense of "you have to protect yourself from boys and men". Overall though the coverage of contraception and consent and stuff was pretty decent - certainly a lot better than what I've heard from many friends who went to faith schools. Speaking to friends my age who went to Catholic school it sounds pretty horrendous - one friend said that their sole "sex education" lesson consisted of boys and girls being separated into different classrooms, and the girls were shown a gory video of an abortion (or purporting to be, anyway). I can't imagine how that wouldn't really traumatise and fuck you up as an 11-year-old.

Dunno what the boys were shown, probably a video about how wanking makes you go blind or something.

chveik

Quote from: flotemysost on May 12, 2021, 11:49:44 PM
Bloody hell. I never had anything that bad (as mentioned, I had a secular education) but there was still definitely a sense of "you have to protect yourself from boys and men".

well that's not such a bad advice really

flotemysost

It's not, but my point is that was always the angle - boys and men will try to get sex from you and you have to learn how to say no to them. Obviously teaching the importance of consent and self esteem is really important, but there was little acknowledgement that girls and women might also want and enjoy sex and actively pursue it, rather than just reluctantly giving in to advances from men (and there was also the unwritten assumption all of the girls would even be interested in male partners anyway!), and there didn't seem to be much expectation that boys and men should also learn about consent. It was all shown in a pretty negative light.

As I say, my education in that area certainly wasn't terrible and discourse around these things has moved on pretty rapidly since the 00s, but it definitely feels a bit dated now.

The main thing I'm bitter about is missing out on the HPV vaccine by a school year because the Tories were convinced it would encourage girls to be promiscuous. Could have saved me the joy of multiple colposcopies there.

Quote from: flotemysost on May 12, 2021, 11:49:44 PM
Dunno what the boys were shown, probably a video about how wanking makes you go blind or something.

Herpes sores on a bell.

Kankurette

Tories worrying about anyone being promiscuous is a tad hypocritical.

In high school there was an expectation that if you were a girl, you'd be interested in boys and/or have a boyfriend. Woe betide you if you were bi or gay. I got accused of being a lesbian way before I even knew I was bi. I got made fun of for being a virgin when I was 11. 11, for fuck's sake. And when I got into my mid teens I started seeking sex in clubs and lost my virginity in a toilet because I was desperate not to be a virgin anymore. It's like, you're told to be careful in one ear and in the other you're expected to have loads of sex and you're thought of as odd if you're still a virgin at 17-18.

greenman

Quote from: flotemysost on May 12, 2021, 11:49:44 PMBloody hell. I never had anything that bad (as mentioned, I had a secular education) but there was still definitely a sense of "you have to protect yourself from boys and men". Overall though the coverage of contraception and consent and stuff was pretty decent - certainly a lot better than what I've heard from many friends who went to faith schools. Speaking to friends my age who went to Catholic school it sounds pretty horrendous - one friend said that their sole "sex education" lesson consisted of boys and girls being separated into different classrooms, and the girls were shown a gory video of an abortion (or purporting to be, anyway). I can't imagine how that wouldn't really traumatise and fuck you up as an 11-year-old.

Dunno what the boys were shown, probably a video about how wanking makes you go blind or something.

99% of the time it was just a normal state school but in situations like that I think you could clearly see what the religious funding was getting.

willbo

When I remember the stuff we did at school in the late 90s, (we called it personal/social education), looking back now it was actually quite good from a modern progressive view. There wasn't anything about consent that I remember, but we had open relaxed conversations with our teachers about condoms etc. Trouble is I grew up in a very conservative evangelical church and my parents are really weird about sex, even by the standards of the church community we were in, so I didn't have a hope of school offsetting the other stuff screwing me up.

edit - there was something about consent. There was a funny video about a man's friend telling him to wank because he didn't have to have sex or something.