Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years

[JamesTC]

Fair enough. It is a trope of the Matt Smith era that he breaks temporal rules.

[Lungpuddle]

By far the worst episode of the whole Moffat era, that. Absolutely horrible.

Nah, there's at least one Capaldi episode that is worse.

I don't have anything to add, but I'm really enjoying reading through this thread, even when you like episodes I hate or think episodes that have saved my life are shit (for clarity: no episode of Doctor Who has ever saved my life).

[Endicott]

You're doing a nice set of reviews. When I sober up a bit I might try and redeem the Ben Browder gunfighter one as I quite liked it. Though possibly coz of my Farscape love. Anyway what with the nazi angle gonna leave it for now!

[Endicott]

I think an ending in an earlier era might have seen older Amy left to survive in her own time bubble with robot Rory. Definitely feels like an Eccelstone/Tennant type ending.

Just going to add something here coz can't stop myself. I think trying to fit an answer into previous continuity is too constricting. They should have made something up to allow it. Something new. It deserved something new. It's that big a deal, that it deserved something new. I felt, and obviously this is just me, that killing off older Amy showed a paucity of imagination. Rereading that back I ought to edit out some repetition...

[Midas]

I vaguely recall it being a recurring thing in Series 6 that the numerous doubles/duplicates/doppelgängers usually seemed to end up dying/turning to goo/getting written out of existence. Admittedly I haven't watched any of these episodes since broadcast but I never really "got" why every other episode seemed to hinge on an overt depiction of duality or what the writers were actually trying to express with it tbh. The only thing I can think of is that it was all part of some ridiculous anguished metacommentary about the series being split in two... or Moffat having to work on two programmes at the same time...

[Mister Six]

General thematic cohesion, and also giving you lots of options for how The Doctor is going to get out of dying at Lake Silencio. If it were just the Tesselecta story, the solution would be obvious.

[Midas]

I just don't quite see what Moffat was trying to articulate in his Lake Silencio storyline that justified the entire series revolving around it tbh. It seems like conjuring up a series full of red herrings resulted in a number of episodes with extremely abstract moral dilemmas that ended up saying very little about the real world in service of an arc that itself was saying very little about the real world.

I was trying to think why this storyline about circumnavigating death with a heavy emphasis on duality and duplicity would have been specifically relevant in 2011. Perhaps it's serving as an obfuscated criticism of the coalition government or summat. I dunno.

[Replies From View]

He saved that until 2015

[Mister Six]

I just don't quite see what Moffat was trying to articulate in his Lake Silencio storyline that justified the entire series revolving around it tbh. It seems like conjuring up a series full of red herrings resulted in a number of episodes with extremely abstract moral dilemmas that ended up saying very little about the real world in service of an arc that itself was saying very little about the real world.

Think he was probably just writing/showrunning a fun family show.

(Although even then, there's clearly an ethical dilemma in what to do with Old Amy if you want to save Young Amy, and questions about the nature of identity - "there's no difference between 'our' Doctor and the clone Doctor" - in the Ganger story. Which may not have much bearing on "the real world", but who gives a shit? Star Trek, the stories of Philip K Dick and plenty of other fine sci-fi works have made hay out of this kind of thing for decades. Demanding a one-to-one real life metaphor from your fiction seems like a limitation that will get in the way of letting you enjoy things while providing no benefits whatsoever.)

[purlieu]

Yeah, although there's scope for satire in Doctor Who, and it's an established element of the show, it doesn't mean every storyline has to be like that. The Doctor's death was a way to set up a fascinating impossible mystery to grab people at the start of the series and keep them guessing until the end.

[Replies From View]

The series 6 arc uses elements of what series 5 would have been if Tennant had chosen to stay on for one more series.  I think you can tell.

As it stands, series 6 comes far too soon after Tennant's drawn-out, woe-is-me, this-counts-as-death, old-man-Wilf-you-wouldn't-understand finale to really strike a chord.  Furthermore it lacked a detail that Moffat only concocted later, but would have given so much potency if planned in advance:  the Eleventh Doctor was actually the final incarnation of this regeneration cycle, so his death could have truly been projected as his last, with the granting of a new regeneration cycle saving him.


It's bonkers really that Moffat didn't at least hold off the series 6 arc until Smith's last year.  It would have come fortuitously together and been such a great send-off.  It just meant that come Smith's final story, all the hands had already been played so "this is my final body" would sit as a mere shrug within an overly packed episode.

[Replies From View]

Series 6 is fascinating in the way it shows how the Doctor should always experience time; it's just weird that it happens only for that series and without much explanation.  I suppose it can be said that it's something to do with his temporal connection with River expanding out to other events, but really it just serves to highlight the slight madness that he experiences literally everything else sequentially.

[Midas]

He saved that until 2015

Clara = Clegg???

[Mister Six]

It's bonkers really that Moffat didn't at least hold off the series 6 arc until Smith's last year.  It would have come fortuitously together and been such a great send-off.  It just meant that come Smith's final story, all the hands had already been played so "this is my final body" would sit as a mere shrug within an overly packed episode.

Both RTD and Moffat have mentioned how Who just chews through ideas, and given the relentless pace and amount of work to be done, I can't blame him for just going with the strongest idea he had at the time. And it is a corking opener to the season. The revelation of who (pun intended) got the final invitation letter is brilliant, as is the contrast in "facing my death" Doctor and "ooh, fizzy straw" Doctor.

I strongly suspect Moffat had grand plans for series 7 that were shat upon by Gillan leaving the show (not that I blame her, with Hollywood knocking), and had to rush the final body thing because Smith had decided to jump ship pretty shortly afterwards, so it probably wouldn't have been for the best if he had held onto it anyway - wouldn't have been able to use it at all, unless you want to add a Tesselecta-type paradox to the already stuffed Time of the Doctor.

[Mister Six]

Yeah, although there's scope for satire in Doctor Who, and it's an established element of the show, it doesn't mean every storyline has to be like that. The Doctor's death was a way to set up a fascinating impossible mystery to grab people at the start of the series and keep them guessing until the end.

And just to add to this, I don't think "relating to the real world" is automatically a good thing for Who. Rosa related to the real world, but not only lacked spark and verve, it also forced The Doctor and pals to become complicit in racial oppression. The Doctor taught us about brave Noor Inayat Khan, a real world hero, then sent her off to be beaten and executed in Dachau, removing her memory despite her protestations.[nb]In a scene that's making my blood boil just to remember it.[/nb]

Obviously you can do it well, but I don't think it should ever be considered the default method of storytelling, or be regarded as something that is de facto a good and desirable element.

[JamesTC]

As Christmas specials go, The Snowmen is basically fine. Though it does spend much of its run time establishing the series arc which I feel is out of place for a Christmas Special. On the plus side it is a far stronger Christmas episode than the previous one.

I don't like the whole mopey The Doctor not wanting to be The Doctor anymore. I find any sort of storyline which has The Doctor not wanting to be The Doctor (aside from The War Doctor) is tedious. It all seems to be the same kind of idea in recent superhero stuff where you have superheroes who save everybody from supervillains and for some moronic reason question whether they are good people.

I know Clara gets a bad rep but from the episodes I've seen with her, I think she is fine. And I don't just think that because I fancy Jenna Coleman.

Is The Snowmen a prequel or a sequel to The Web of Fear? It hints that this is before the attack in the underground, so does The Great Intelligence go from here to the events of The Abominable Snowmen? If this is a genesis story for The Great Intelligence then it seems a bit lacklustre for a villain with the build-up in The Web of Fear.

Strax is always good for a laugh. Makes me want to revisit the Jago and Litefoot and Strax story from a few years ago.

[JamesTC]

What if Wi-Fi downloaded us, huh? It is the most obvious Doctor Who idea ever. It feels like a parody. What if Netflix streamed demons? What if biscuits could dunk us? What if pants wore humans? What if pillows tried to take over the planet while we sleep?

The Bells of Saint John continues in the parody by gifting us with a hacking scene complete with typing randomly onto a keyboard which clearly works to hack all of the most secure networks ever created.

All in all it is just a bit lacklustre of an opener. I didn't particularly dislike it but it just all feels so wasteful. I initially wasn't liking the ending until it was revealed it was a robot who went up the Shard and The Doctor was safely back at the cafe which was a lovely twist. The Great Intelligence pops up again, I believe to set them up for the finale, but they aren't utilised at all here in any meaningful way.

[purlieu]

The Bells of Saint John really feels like a RTD-era episode. It was the moment I realised the Moffat magic had really slipped a bit.

[JamesTC]

Definitely. Felt like a phoned in version of Smith and Jones or Partners in Crime.

[Replies From View]

It's obvious that Moffat was deliberately going for RTD vibes with that one - it's no error.  He wanted accessibility, silliness, some spookiness with the hollowed out spoon head thing and the woman at the end who was inside still just a girl.  It was part of Moffat's skill that he could pull out the RTD adrenaline rush episode when necessary, in a way that Chibnall obviously can't.

It's far from perfect but I think it suffers for being promoted as a series opener rather than just the second half of an existing series. 


By this point in the ongoing saga, the showrunner clearly faces a difficulty when it comes to the "companion encounters the inside of the TARDIS" scenario.  It really shouldn't be half-arsed; it has to be incredible for them, and the Doctor needs to relish the companion's reaction every time.  But this need obviously conflicts with what the audience will be needing as part of the ongoing trajectory of the show.  See how the Doctor brushes off the initial reactions of Martha and Donna to the inside of the TARDIS.  "Oh really; I hadn't noticed."  The Doctor's relishing fades as the audience gets familiar with it.  The fact is, in The Snowmen we'd already had Clara's reaction to the inside of the TARDIS, and it was magical.  Then she died and we got a kind of half-arsed rushed version in this, the modern day Clara's actual introduction episode.  In my view this kind of cements this version of Clara from day one.  She is a detached, somewhat under-baked repetition, even when she is doing everything for the first time, she comes across as endlessly underwhelmed.

[Replies From View]

Chibnall of course compressing his companions' first experience of the inside of the TARDIS with the Doctor's own first experience of that console room.  Indication from the outset that he would be endlessly backgrounding his companions - never mind any notion that the companions' wonder can bring magic back to the Doctor's tired, seen-everything-a-million-times eyes.

He needn't follow that template of course, but if you're planning to remove one of the main reasons for the Doctor to value companions, you could at least have something in mind to replace it.  (Oh yeah he did:  co-dependency.)

[Replies From View]

One thing that annoyed me about The Bells of St John was the fact they left the TARDIS doors open when it was parked on the South Bank.  It happened a few times in series 7 if I recall correctly, and I remember thinking at the time that it must have been leading somewhere - like they'd find some kind of threat had snuck in due to their negligence.  But it never happened so must have just been a production mistake.

[Malcy]

One thing that annoyed me about The Bells of St John was the fact they left the TARDIS doors open when it was parked on the South Bank.  It happened a few times in series 7 if I recall correctly, and I remember thinking at the time that it must have been leading somewhere - like they'd find some kind of threat had snuck in due to their negligence.  But it never happened so must have just been a production mistake.

If anyone found their way in then they might have met up with that Cyberman that wandered off in the 80's. Sitcom waiting to happen.

[Replies From View]

Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS deleted scene

[Malcy]

Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS deleted scene

Clara's in the library and finds that Time War book and says "That's who you are". Cut to Dave Cyberman and random walk-in reading a travel guide on Metebelis 3 and going "Shhhhhhh"!

[Replies From View]

WHEN DID YOU LAST HAVE THE PLEASURE OF READING A WELL-PREPARED BOOK

[Malcy]

WHEN DID YOU LAST HAVE THE PLEASURE OF READING A WELL-PREPARED BOOK

Brilliant, we need a Showrunner gig on A Doctor Who version Of Star Trek's Lower Decks.

[A Hat Like That]

What if Wi-Fi downloaded us, huh? It is the most obvious Doctor Who idea ever. It feels like a parody. What if Netflix streamed demons? What if biscuits could dunk us? What if pants wore humans? What if pillows tried to take over the planet while we sleep?

The Bells of Saint John continues in the parody by gifting us with a hacking scene complete with typing randomly onto a keyboard which clearly works to hack all of the most secure networks ever created.

All in all it is just a bit lacklustre of an opener. I didn't particularly dislike it but it just all feels so wasteful. I initially wasn't liking the ending until it was revealed it was a robot who went up the Shard and The Doctor was safely back at the cafe which was a lovely twist. The Great Intelligence pops up again, I believe to set them up for the finale, but they aren't utilised at all here in any meaningful way.

what if emojis but ... more ...

look forward to it

[Catalogue Trousers]

Is The Snowmen a prequel or a sequel to The Web of Fear? It hints that this is before the attack in the underground, so does The Great Intelligence go from here to the events of The Abominable Snowmen? If this is a genesis story for The Great Intelligence then it seems a bit lacklustre for a villain with the build-up in The Web of Fear.

D'you know, I honestly hadn't considered that until you mentioned it there? Of course, The Snowmen with its Victorian, horse-drawn carriage setting comes first: The Abominable Snowmen takes place during the mid-1930s (generally placed as 1935 for convenience's sake), and The Web Of Fear is set some 40 years later (left carefully vague so that 'some 40 years later' can span from the late 1960s to the mid 1970s according to preference).

And, of course, Downtime takes place after all three of them.

[M-CORP]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GdAmDayfVM

Series Two poorly animated. Not as good as the series one pastiche IMHO due to its length and greater reliance on sex jokes, but still bloody funny and deranged. Worth it just to see

Spoiler alert

an Ood speaking with the voice of Frankie Boyle. And Neil from Art Attack in Fear Her. Yes.

[close]

Also, the similes:

Spoiler alert

'Why you as transparent as Blair's real intentions for helping Bush invade Iraq?'

[close]