Author Topic: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years  (Read 35591 times)

JamesTC

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2021, 07:16:17 PM »

(I actually rate Boom Town. Its a good little episode while tying a number of things going on in Season 1 together)

I was borderline with whether to put it in my list of episodes I would be arsed revisiting. I remember it being a nice little episode but it is linked to the not so good two parter that preceded it that I am put off. I remember Eccleston being particularly good that week.

Zetetic

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2021, 08:28:53 PM »
First, he (correctly?) works on the premise that the questions will always be more interesting than the answers.
I think the issue that I have with Moffat's tenure after a while is that the resolutions, more and more, seem to have almost no emotional implications. My memory is of increasingly struggling to find something to wonder "what would that feel like to go through?" about.

I'm trying to work out why any of the revelations about The Silence, for example, matter to anyone.

Or anything in The Time of the Doctor, now I think about it? It's most significant emotional implication is that the show isn't going to end that week, I guess.

Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2021, 09:00:32 PM »
I think the issue that I have with Moffat's tenure after a while is that the resolutions, more and more, seem to have almost no emotional implications. My memory is of increasingly struggling to find something to wonder "what would that feel like to go through?" about

The worst demonstration of that is Amy and Rory finding that the baby they had is actually River, and then that being basically ignored by the end of the episode. Not saying that the show had to turn into "Amy and Rory are sad now", but it needed a bit more attention.

Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2021, 12:03:56 PM »
For anyone who's missed it, the Noel Clarke thread now has this:

Crew from Doctor Who have now come forward:

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2021/may/07/noel-clarke-accused-of-sexual-harassment-on-doctor-who-set

Clarke and Barrowman both fingered, but not in the way they'd like.

Includes specific accusations from junior members of the crew, with comment from RTD, Julie Gardner, Barrowman, and increasingly-grimly-hilarious shit from Clarke's lawyers.

I'll be writing about it over there, rather than here, but just wanted to give a heads-up for those who don't visit General Bullshit.

Lungpuddle

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2021, 12:25:29 PM »
The worst demonstration of that is Amy and Rory finding that the baby they had is actually River, and then that being basically ignored by the end of the episode. Not saying that the show had to turn into "Amy and Rory are sad now", but it needed a bit more attention.

To be fair to Mr Moffat, he did improve vastly in this area in series 9 (albeit with Capaldi and Coleman instead) and no one seemed to like it other than me. There's also his solo episode of Sherlock 4 (the one with Toby Jones), which was "Sherlock and John are sad and angry and apart" and it's the first thing that comes to mind if I consciously try to think of any time when his stuff has disappointed me. Apart from the Wedding of River Song, although I can enjoy that one much more now it's not the latest episode.

Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2021, 12:44:16 PM »
The worst demonstration of that is Amy and Rory finding that the baby they had is actually River, and then that being basically ignored by the end of the episode. Not saying that the show had to turn into "Amy and Rory are sad now", but it needed a bit more attention.

Completely agree, I hated that whole development. Still feel that it was far too big and awful an incident for the show, which painted them into a corner in terms of the emotional arc. Naturally you couldn't show the Ponds going insane with grief, but the only other option is to have them come across as unrelatably aloof about the whole thing. Amy and Rory's actual baby being stolen from them is just so bleak and I don't think "don't worry, she grows up fine(ish) and is River" is the cure-all the show seems to think it is.

Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2021, 01:21:45 PM »
For anyone who's missed it, the Noel Clarke thread now has this:

Includes specific accusations from junior members of the crew, with comment from RTD, Julie Gardner, Barrowman, and increasingly-grimly-hilarious shit from Clarke's lawyers.

I'll be writing about it over there, rather than here, but just wanted to give a heads-up for those who don't visit General Bullshit.

Thanks. Didn't know there was a thread on this.

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2021, 01:36:36 PM »
Completely agree, I hated that whole development. Still feel that it was far too big and awful an incident for the show, which painted them into a corner in terms of the emotional arc. Naturally you couldn't show the Ponds going insane with grief, but the only other option is to have them come across as unrelatably aloof about the whole thing. Amy and Rory's actual baby being stolen from them is just so bleak and I don't think "don't worry, she grows up fine(ish) and is River" is the cure-all the show seems to think it is.

I know that doing it off-screen isn’t always ideal, but in this instance one could argue that the mid-series gap works as an emotional cushion for the Ponds to come to terms with it all, and for the viewers to not require an emotional resolution because so much time has passed.  What we didn’t see on-screen was “never mind all this guff; let’s just get on with more adventures!” but people tend to see it that way because all these emotional arcs were not attended to in any episodes we saw.


My view is that something tricky like that is better left off-screen than done badly on-screen.  I know that this arguably lets Moffat off some hooks a little too easily, but think of the way it was handled by Moffat (the audience can imagine it, if they want, in the mid-series gap) and the way Chibnall would have done it.

purlieu

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #68 on: May 07, 2021, 01:52:52 PM »
RTD, meanwhile, would have gone for 20 minutes of crying and bombastic sad music.

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #69 on: May 07, 2021, 02:11:58 PM »
For anyone who's missed it, the Noel Clarke thread now has this:

Includes specific accusations from junior members of the crew, with comment from RTD, Julie Gardner, Barrowman, and increasingly-grimly-hilarious shit from Clarke's lawyers.

I'll be writing about it over there, rather than here, but just wanted to give a heads-up for those who don't visit General Bullshit.

Quote
On one occasion, Jenna said that she witnessed Barrowman “slapping” his penis on the windscreen of one of the driver’s cars, “thinking it was really funny”.

To be fair, if he was standing at for example the driver’s door and was recognisably slapping his penis on the actual windscreen from there, rather on the metal frame around it, it must be a fair size.  If I was attempting the same feat the story would be “Replies From View was standing at the driver’s door of David Tennant’s car, and he was squishing his genital bundle, comprising an indecipherable mass of cock, balls and pubic hair, in the gap between the wing mirror and the windscreen frame.”


And if they said that I’d be able to tell the jury it was just a tennis ball or something.  So last laugh and all that.

Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #70 on: May 07, 2021, 02:20:08 PM »
I know that doing it off-screen isn’t always ideal, but in this instance one could argue that the mid-series gap works as an emotional cushion for the Ponds to come to terms with it all, and for the viewers to not require an emotional resolution because so much time has passed.  What we didn’t see on-screen was “never mind all this guff; let’s just get on with more adventures!” but people tend to see it that way because all these emotional arcs were not attended to in any episodes we saw.


My view is that something tricky like that is better left off-screen than done badly on-screen.  I know that this arguably lets Moffat off some hooks a little too easily, but think of the way it was handled by Moffat (the audience can imagine it, if they want, in the mid-series gap) and the way Chibnall would have done it.

I'd completely forgotten about that mid-series break! Funny how much brouhaha it caused at the time, given the current release rate.

A good point and I think you're right, the hiatus must have been factored in on a storytelling level. But it does still feel a massive emotional development that is glossed over a bit too neatly for me. Series 6 is a busy old series with the pregnancy/River/Silence/Doctor's death stuff going on and the breathless pace is a double-edged sword perhaps.

Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2021, 12:52:28 PM »
Chibnall is still writing for a family audience, like Dicks and RTD and Moffat, it's just that the family is one exceptionally dull boy and a patient but disinterested grandmother.

Shona was initially written as a possible companion

Was she though, in Pixley-confirmed certitude, or is it just that we all adored her so much that we wished she'd be sticking around?


Or anything in The Time of the Doctor, now I think about it? It's most significant emotional implication is that the show isn't going to end that week, I guess.

Because the UNIVERSE isn't going to end! Too often, Moffat had the universe threatened in a way that made it no threat whatsoever (The Lodger blows this incredibly, muffing the otherwise close and personal tone - the top-floor aliens could threaten that one row of houses, rather than the universe, to better effect), but he finally scaled back this time. The episode is about The Doctor reducing his scope of care from ALL OF TIME AND SPACE to one tiny town on one tiny planet -- and in the process becoming a sun god, whose own death and rebirth in an explosion of light allows existence to carry on for this entire, little world. It's magnificent.

Admittedly, it might have come across better if seeded, built up, and then told without "naked dinner party jokes" in the same episode. But given how often Moffat ditched his long-term plans for a new idea bcz he was bored of thinking about the old one too long, it might have played worse.

Completely agree, I hated that whole development. Still feel that it was far too big and awful an incident for the show, which painted them into a corner in terms of the emotional arc. Naturally you couldn't show the Ponds going insane with grief, but the only other option is to have them come across as unrelatably aloof about the whole thing. Amy and Rory's actual baby being stolen from them is just so bleak and I don't think "don't worry, she grows up fine(ish) and is River" is the cure-all the show seems to think it is.

Case in point: that season mixed up the order of its episodes, so the one where Amy & Rory search through a haunted house for a missing child never mentions that their own child had been stolen, nor is there any thematic resonance, because that episode was filmed to go in the first half-season, before they even knew she was pregnant.

Thomas

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2021, 01:38:49 PM »
I also recall that at the end of that episode, the Doctor puts his arms round Amy and Rory and says 'it's good to be back together,' and half-ominously adds, 'in the flesh'. Obviously intended to forecast the reveal that Amy is a Flesh Ganger, though the change in running order meant this had already been dealt with.

Zetetic

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2021, 01:52:28 PM »
to one tiny town on one tiny planet
There is no reason to give a shit about "Christmas" and "Trenzalore". And what's the threat? That they all die? Sad if we imagine anyone notices, I suppose.

Thomas

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2021, 02:04:37 PM »
There is no reason to give a shit about "Christmas" and "Trenzalore". And what's the threat? That they all die? Sad if we imagine anyone notices, I suppose.

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Zetetic

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2021, 02:13:38 PM »
If you wept with joy at the end of The Time of the Doctor, it's because you're party to the gross abstract sentimentality of dictators disconnected from the experiences of actual humans.

Not my words, but Moffat describing who he writes for, in my imagination.

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2021, 07:25:14 PM »
If you wept with joy at the end of The Time of the Doctor, it's because you're party to the gross abstract sentimentality of dictators disconnected from the experiences of actual humans.

Not my words, but Moffat describing who he writes for, in my imagination.

Sounds like something the Wachowskis would write for the Matrix sequels.

Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2021, 08:25:45 PM »
I remember so clearly being excited for the new Doctor Who under RTD, talking my flatmate into watching with me (she was happy to watch Buffy and the like but had never been into Who). Started watching it, there was a strained silence for about twenty minutes while Ecclestone gurned under terrible lighting, then I apologised to her, turned it off and said something along the lines of 'ah well, at least they had a go', just assuming it was going to quietly die off again just as soon as it had started.

Very glad to be proved wrong, and I got more into it when I gave it another go when it was repeated (or on DVD maybe?), but man was I out of kilter with the general reception. Or was I INDEPENDENT-MINDED AND STRONG? You decide.

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2021, 02:22:59 PM »
haven't watched who for years because i felt i outgrew it, capaldi being a bit of a disappointing dad rocker type, but started to watch series 10 and i'm really enjoying it???

bill, nardole, and the doctor together work SO WELL together. capaldi's character's much more realised. it feels so much more natural now with clara gone i'm having a blast four episodes in

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2021, 03:53:15 PM »
haven't watched who for years because i felt i outgrew it, capaldi being a bit of a disappointing dad rocker type, but started to watch series 10 and i'm really enjoying it???

bill, nardole, and the doctor together work SO WELL together. capaldi's character's much more realised. it feels so much more natural now with clara gone i'm having a blast four episodes in

Absolutely.  It’s such a shame we only got one series with that combination of characters.  It’s the only time Capaldi’s Doctor ever seemed to click, and then it was over.  Smith and Capaldi both needed four series each, for different reasons.

Moffat again showing how to have “gangs” of characters, too.  You don’t need three full-time companions.  Have one full-time companion, then one that tags along a little less frequently, then one who joins in at an even greater distance.


Rose, Mickey and Captain Jack
Amy, Rory and River Song
Clara and the Paternoster Gang (significantly less flexible as they come as a bundle of three)
Bill, Nardole and Missy

Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #80 on: May 10, 2021, 04:07:13 PM »
Apparently (according to a friend on the set), Capaldi found it very difficult to work with Lucas, not on a personal level as such, but because he kept improvving/changing his lines, which threw Capaldi off his rhythm.

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #81 on: May 10, 2021, 04:20:59 PM »
Echoes of Pertwee and Troughton in The Three Doctors there :

Quote
Pertwee now has to contend with the scene stealing antics of Troughton and the effortless command of Hartnell! It is hilarious when you learn about the behind the scenes clash of personalities, especially the idea of Troughton improvising his script as he goes along and throwing Pertwee off his game who has learnt his to the letter!
https://docohobigfinish.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-three-doctors-written-by-bob-baker.html

Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #82 on: May 10, 2021, 04:40:32 PM »
Ahhhh, clearly it's just part of a long Who tradition...

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #83 on: May 10, 2021, 05:31:39 PM »
Apparently (according to a friend on the set), Capaldi found it very difficult to work with Lucas, not on a personal level as such, but because he kept improvving/changing his lines, which threw Capaldi off his rhythm.

That seems really odd, considering Capaldi became famous for a show that was incredibly reliant on improvising/changing everyone's lines.

Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #84 on: May 10, 2021, 05:49:36 PM »
The Thick Of It? Mayyyyyybe, but in my experience, most actors massively exaggerate the amount of improvisation they do. Or maybe that was one kind of setup and he'd gone into Who working a different way, dunno.

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #85 on: May 10, 2021, 06:26:40 PM »
Echoes of Pertwee and Troughton in The Three Doctors there :
https://docohobigfinish.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-three-doctors-written-by-bob-baker.html

The “effortless command” of a pre-recorded video tape of Hartnell reading his lines.

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #86 on: May 10, 2021, 06:28:05 PM »
Apparently (according to a friend on the set), Capaldi found it very difficult to work with Lucas, not on a personal level as such, but because he kept improvving/changing his lines, which threw Capaldi off his rhythm.

Well it worked.  Sometimes an actor boggling for a moment and trying to recalibrate so the scene can move forward is exactly what is needed.  See also Matt Smith trying to keep up with Tom Baker in Day of the Doctor.

purlieu

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #87 on: May 10, 2021, 07:11:28 PM »
haven't watched who for years because i felt i outgrew it, capaldi being a bit of a disappointing dad rocker type, but started to watch series 10 and i'm really enjoying it???

bill, nardole, and the doctor together work SO WELL together. capaldi's character's much more realised. it feels so much more natural now with clara gone i'm having a blast four episodes in
It's pretty much a different show, isn't it? There's just a wonderful sparkling energy to it that was absent throughout most of the 12 / Clara run, it's fun without resorting to RTD style vapidness, there's also a slight move away from the London-centric stuff into more atmospheric stories as well. If only we'd had more.

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #88 on: May 10, 2021, 07:20:59 PM »
It would have been a borderline perfect series if it hadn't had the horrible fake regeneration in the middle.

Lungpuddle

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Re: Doctor Who 2005-2017 : The RTD & Moffat Years
« Reply #89 on: May 10, 2021, 07:26:56 PM »
It would have been a borderline perfect series if it hadn't had the horrible fake regeneration in the middle.

I liked Extremis, the Pyramid one was okay, but yeah the Lie of the Land is terrible and does everything wrong. That fake regeneration was the worst part, along with the bit where there's what I assume to be ADR with the Doctor saying "oh yes, I was accidentally saving the world!" It's such a condescending moment, made all the worse by how great the rest of series 10 is (I was disappointed by the Ice Warriors one too, but not to this extent).

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