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Labour Party - We are not the party of people on benefits

Started by king_tubby, May 08, 2021, 09:41:50 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Fambo Number Mive

Quote from: undeliberated on June 22, 2021, 01:49:16 PM
Christ, imagine being this FPTP-addled and two-party-minded.
Euthanasia case.

New Lib Dem PR approach "controversial".

SpiderChrist

Quote from: undeliberated on June 22, 2021, 01:49:16 PM
Christ, imagine being this FPTP-addled and two-party-minded.
Euthanasia case.

Come on then, POINDEXTER, what plan you got? Huh? HUH?

Paul Calf

The best thing to do is to pretend that FPTP doesn't exist, shit your pants and vote Green. At least you'll be able to say That You Did Something.

king_tubby

Do I have to vote Green or can I just shit my pants?

BlodwynPig


Paul Calf


Shoulders?-Stomach!

I was put in touch with this old interview from happier times, when the Guardian were already openly touting Starmer as Corbyn's replacement. I bet Keith was gutted to have to wait a further 3 years.

Still, some choice glimpses into our beige sludge future:

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/24/keir-starmer-labour-brexit-interview?

Quote"I ask for an example of what that vision might consist of. "An economy that works for everybody," he replies. My heart sinks. That's it? Seriously? "



Shoulders?-Stomach!


BlodwynPig

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on June 22, 2021, 03:18:35 PM
I was put in touch with this old interview from happier times, when the Guardian were already openly touting Starmer as Corbyn's replacement. I bet Keith was gutted to have to wait a further 3 years.

Still, some choice glimpses into our beige sludge future:

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/24/keir-starmer-labour-brexit-interview?

Exact same suit

Mick Farren - Give the Anarchist a Cigarette


Johnny Yesno


MoreauVasz

Quote from: Blumf on June 22, 2021, 10:30:19 AM
(or am I think of the wrong dead expat pederast science fiction author?)

In fairness, there are quite a few of them. More than any other literary form. There was even a special Hugo award for it in 1956.

Lord Jim

Here's the way I look at the political map in the UK.

80-85% of MP's are effectively Tories; it's just the "colour" that they align themselves with that varies.

"Red Tories",  new New Labour, heirs to Blair, Kieth and Co, whatever you want to call them. Political descendants of the likes of Anthony Wedgewood Benn (resigned his title to go into politics, but held on to Stansgate Abbey and all the loot.....)

"Yellow Tories"  literally....The LibDumbs, showed their true faces when they sold out to the Conservatives in the coalition government and capitulated every step of the way. Remember tuition fees and the bedroom tax? They are now barely a token force.

"Blue Tories", traditional conservatives, a bit of a mixed bag this lot, or, in politico speak, a "broad church". Oddly a few of them do seem almost likeable. (I said a few, and almost...)

Lastly there are the "purple Tories" , an alliance of UKIP sympathizers, total freemarketeers, (as long as they're well placed in the market that is, capitalize the profits but socialise the losses and all that) and the jingoistic, smiling, harbingers of despotism (bring back hanging, bring back the workhouse etc etc)

The government of the day and the governance is provides is the result of where the centre of gravity between these four groups lies.

What about the other 20%?
The SNP are at Westminster for one reason, to stick the knife into whatever government exists in order to "free themselves" from the yoke of the "Bastid Ainglish"

The Labour "real socialists" are a bunch of optimists, unfortunately the age old problem of idealism swimming against the tide of human nature, I sympathize with them, but they never seem to get the fact that persuasion trumps protest every time.

The solitary Green; I'll listen more to what she has to say when her party accept that pollution and environmental destruction is ultimately the result of the global population explosion ( it's doubled in my lifetime) As ever its a case of tinkering to delay the inevitable rather than addressing the root cause.



Paul Calf

Quote from: Lord Jim on June 23, 2021, 12:53:26 PM


The solitary Green; I'll listen more to what she has to say when her party accept that pollution and environmental destruction is ultimately the result of the global population explosion ( it's doubled in my lifetime) As ever its a case of tinkering to delay the inevitable rather than addressing the root cause.




And what does 'addressing the root cause' consist of practically, in reality?

Shoulders?-Stomach!


Lord Jim

Quote from: Paul Calf on June 23, 2021, 01:01:33 PM
And what does 'addressing the root cause' consist of practically, in reality?

Some sort of birth control policy I suppose, worldwide. Very difficult to achieve I know but without it in about 50 years there will be wars over food supplies and I suppose the population might get "thinned out" a bit that way. Possibly also mass starvations. I acknowledge it's a tricky subject, but the Greens just look the other way on this and it's the crux of what their politics is all about.

Ferris


Shit Good Nose

#2027
Quote from: Lord Jim on June 23, 2021, 12:53:26 PM
The solitary Green; I'll listen more to what she has to say when her party accept that pollution and environmental destruction is ultimately the result of the global population explosion ( it's doubled in my lifetime) As ever its a case of tinkering to delay the inevitable rather than addressing the root cause.

Nice to finally read someone else on here saying the population explosion is as much a problem as and goes hand-in-hand with the climate emergency - I've been saying it on here for literally years, but have regularly been shouted down about it, and often completely misquoted as a climate change denier (completely ignoring the fact I work in the fucking industry so have a better idea than most just how fucked things are).  Quite a few CaBbers just don't seem to be able to grasp how "natural resources" work and how they can only sustain a certain population before running out for good.

Quote from: Lord Jim on June 23, 2021, 01:22:03 PM
in about 50 years there will be wars over food supplies

I genuinely think (and, again, it's something I've been saying for a few years on here) we'll be having wars over water instead of oil within most of our lifetimes.


Didn't the Greens have a 1/2 child policy in their manifesto 15-20 years ago?

Cuellar


Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Cuellar on June 23, 2021, 01:51:41 PM
How do you have half a child

Ate one half due to food shortages and a long queue at the food bank (it was raining).

Pink Gregory


Paul Calf

Quote from: Lord Jim on June 23, 2021, 01:22:03 PM
Some sort of birth control policy I suppose, worldwide. Very difficult to achieve I know but without it in about 50 years there will be wars over food supplies and I suppose the population might get "thinned out" a bit that way.


The answer to this question always ends up being "Kill people who don't matter, or at least let them die".

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on June 23, 2021, 01:45:21 PM
Nice to finally read someone else on here saying the population explosion is as much a problem as and goes hand-in-hand with the climate emergency

Not so nice.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Paul Calf on June 23, 2021, 02:05:10 PM

The answer to this question always ends up being "Kill people who don't matter, or at least let them die".

Not so nice.

Well, easier access to birth control and, yes, perhaps an element of self-control doesn't require anyone to be killed or left to die.

No one - including myself - said it was easy, but killing people isn't the only solution.

BUT, at the same time the climate issue shouldn't be ignored either.

pancreas



Buelligan

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on June 23, 2021, 02:13:34 PM
Well, easier access to birth control and, yes, perhaps an element of self-control doesn't require anyone to be killed or left to die.

No one - including myself - said it was easy, but killing people isn't the only solution.

BUT, at the same time the climate issue shouldn't be ignored either.

Maybe you should start a thread about it, could be an interesting discussion.

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on June 23, 2021, 01:11:39 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/23/keir-starmer-labour-lose-opposition-base

Zarb makes every line sing and every line his own.

Excellent stuff.

It's almost as if those running the Labour Party really do not care at all about winning elections and saving the country, it's almost as if they have another agenda.  MZC is totally on the button but no one cares, nothing will change, they are running the Party over a cliff.


Paul Calf

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on June 23, 2021, 02:13:34 PM
Well, easier access to birth control and, yes, perhaps an element of self-control doesn't require anyone to be killed or left to die.

No one - including myself - said it was easy, but killing people isn't the only solution.

BUT, at the same time the climate issue shouldn't be ignored either.

Once you popularise the idea that there are too many people and the solution is to have fewer, people start sorting heads into productive and non-productive silos. Or camps. Or shower blocks.

I mean, we can try it again but everyone thinks that.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Paul Calf on June 23, 2021, 02:38:56 PM
Once you popularise the idea that there are too many people and the solution is to have fewer, people start sorting heads into productive and non-productive silos. Or camps. Or shower blocks.

I mean, we can try it again but everyone thinks that.

We're going way off topic here, but...

So rather than looking to curb the population downwards safely (i.e. by improving access to birth control, and some form of way to stop people like Jacob Rees-Mogg from having 300 kids), you immediately head for gassing millions?  That option hadn't ever crossed my mind.

Paul Calf

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on June 23, 2021, 02:46:07 PM
We're going way off topic here, but...

So rather than looking to curb the population downwards safely (i.e. by improving access to birth control, and some form of way to stop people like Jacob Rees-Mogg from having 300 kids), you immediately head for gassing millions?  That option hadn't ever crossed my mind.

It hadn't crossed your mind, but it will cross someone's mind. I'm sure you're sitting there with a finger over your innocently pouted lips pretending that no-one has ever abused the notion of overpopulation in the past, but this is not a view that survives contact with documented history.

The reason no-one has done it is because it's not possible to do it and retain the idea that all human life is respected. Once you have popularised the idea that there's a surplus, people start to ask who might be members of the surplus group.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Paul Calf on June 23, 2021, 03:05:08 PM
It hadn't crossed your mind, but it will cross someone's mind. I'm sure you're sitting there with a finger over your innocently pouted lips pretending that no-one has ever abused the notion of overpopulation in the past, but this is not a view that survives contact with documented history.

The reason no-one has done it is because it's not possible to do it and retain the idea that all human life is respected. Once you have popularised the idea that there's a surplus, people start to ask who might be members of the surplus group.

I'm talking about prevention, you're talking about removal.  Two VERY different ideas there.

Okay, I acknowledge you may well be right that some will immediately head towards genocide as a solution, but it is not the ONLY solution, nor is it an acceptable solution of course.  You seem to have a very fatalistic view (perhaps lack of faith in humanity?  Something which, I must admit, I often err towards myself) that it is the only option.

I also acknowledge that it's basically an impossible task, but just because it's impossible doesn't mean it's not a problem and doesn't mean it should be ignored.  Tying it in with the climate catastrophe (and, admittedly, massively oversimplifying it, but it's a reasonable metaphor I think) - trying to sort out climate change without trying to do something about population is like fitting a brand new AAA rated efficient hydrogen boiler but not bothering to replace your rotting single glazed windows.