Labour Party - We are not the party of people on benefits

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Another chamber of Tories then

Not that the Lords are disappearing any time soon; it will be the last building left standing once the country burns to the ground, but in an imaginary world free of private interest and consolidation of power, the idea of a 2nd chamber that scrutinises the actions of the government being elected via a PR system sounds appealling and potentially effective in providing the necessary checks and balances.

It would also represent a compromise between the people wedded to FPTP and PR obsessives.

The chance of it ever happening is microscopically tiny.

What I don't understand is that a lot of liberals and centrists in the Lib Dems and Greens know that the problems they face are structural and impossible to break down without a radical movement that confronts wealth and privilege but they still daren't do it. You can bang on about PR and UBI all you like guys, but unless you actually confront the class issues in the country that would rather machine gun us all in the street than relinquish their grasp on power and control, you are just doing Lego Britain on your carpet.

[thugler]

I doubt it. It would mean admitting they've picked a lemon, and it would mean allowing the left to say I told you so. I think they're in too deep denial to do anything other than plow grimly on with Kieth. I might be wrong.

Yes, but it's not just going to be the left anymore, you've got soft left MP's getting pissed off with him as well, the media turning on him etc. I mean the tories have noticed when they've picked a lemon before in IDS. If polling doesn't improve I can definitely see it.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/13/resounding-conservative-election-victory-local-devolved-polls

Imagine this droid's reaction if Corbyn lost 300 seats in a council election. Do you think his next column would be 'Well, that wasn't so bad when you drill down'?

[thugler]

The alternative is a party that hasn't been tacking right for nearly 40 years. Labour have consistently (a handful of MPs aside) refused to support large strikes. Clause 4 was dropped in 1995 and no-one, not even Corbyn, was fully in favour of bringing it back. The Labour Party took us into a fucking war at the behest of a right-wing American leader, and you're still defending them. What about the murder of Iraqi children? Defend Labour's record on that. Seeing as you're so desperate to have us all rejoin. Defend the things they actually did, rather than the fantasy of a Labour Party you have in your head.

Of course you won't, you'll make some mealy-mouthed comment about how we all need to fight to make it better. Well, people have been fighting their entire fucking lives to make Labour better, and what's happened? Is Labour better now due to the countless numbers of good socialists who believed the same crap you've been spouting in this thread? How will a fight now be any different than the repeated fights in the past?

Clause 4 is irrelevant really, it's not going to be a vote winner right now is it? the fact that even Corbyn didn't want to bring it back says a lot. I mean if you've got public ownership of utilities in the manifesto that's a decent first step anyway. Noone has defended the Iraq war, it was shameful and criminal but how is it relevant to this discussion now?

An alternative party, while very tempting, will require PR, and so a Labour victory to get anywhere and that should be the focus.

[Zetetic]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/may/13/glasgow-residents-surround-and-block-immigration-van-from-leaving-street

An example of at least minimally effective direct action worth learning from?

You can join a local community organising group or renters' union like https://www.acorntheunion.org.uk/ whether you stay in Labour or not

[king_tubby]

Kieth just retweeted this from Anas Sanwar: https://twitter.com/AnasSarwar/status/1392822655368237056

Surprised me.

[lipsink]

Could this be a sign of a change in direction?

[NoSleep]

Just more weathercock behaviour.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/keir-starmer-john-kay-the-sun-prosecution-labour-party-b934680.html

Speaking of which, that behaviour was cited here by the ghoul Tom Newton Dunn, who is peddling the line that Starmer is lacking a moral centre, arguably true.

[BlodwynPig]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/13/third-way-new-labour-tony-blair-new-vision

Just everything I've been sayin', like. Where's my book? Cheers.

You're wasted in insurance

[BlodwynPig]

Could this be a sign of a change in direction?

Even No Sleep is not buying that

[king_tubby]

https://www.standard.co.uk/comment/keir-starmer-john-kay-the-sun-prosecution-labour-party-b934680.html

Speaking of which, that behaviour was cited here by the ghoul Tom Newton Dunn, who is peddling the line that Starmer is lacking a moral centre, arguably true.

Oh yeah, the article that doesn't mention Aryan Unity's Tom Newton Dunn's mentor John Kay murdered his wife and didn't give a tuppeny shite.

[idunnosomename]

I almost made a thread about John Kay because the platitudes on twitter were like a mafia wake. the cunt drowned his poor wife in a fucking bath and got away with it.

the obits are out now, so i suppose i ought to see how they mention it

[Buelligan]

Really sickening, he worked for the fucking Sun.  Remember Hillsborough (and a million other hateful pages of copy, exploiting peoples' lives and tragedies mercilessly)?  Newton Dunn can get to fuck along with all his kind, they monster people for coin every day of the week.

[BlodwynPig]

Scum

[dissolute ocelot]

What I don't understand is that a lot of liberals and centrists in the Lib Dems and Greens know that the problems they face are structural and impossible to break down without a radical movement that confronts wealth and privilege but they still daren't do it. You can bang on about PR and UBI all you like guys, but unless you actually confront the class issues in the country that would rather machine gun us all in the street than relinquish their grasp on power and control, you are just doing Lego Britain on your carpet.

It's Calvinism vs Universalism, or Theravada vs Mahayana. The one thing a lot of Greens share with the Lib Dems is this Calvinist idea that they are in the elect, their goal is to be virtuous by joining Friends of the Earth, recycling, and voting for a non-mainstream party, without really caring about the majority of people who're less well off. The alternative belief is that nobody's saved unless everybody's saved (living happy and fulfilling lives), which is what socialism should be.

[idunnosomename]

Really sickening, he worked for the fucking Sun.  Remember Hillsborough (and a million other hateful pages of copy, exploiting peoples' lives and tragedies mercilessly)?  Newton Dunn can get to fuck along with all his kind, they monster people for coin every day of the week.

watch him woke-wash himself like Stig Abell. fucking revolving-door monster cunts, just change their fucking mask for money.

[dothestrand]

United's Howard Beckett's having a great day. First, the Anna Turley case, then a massive, massive racism.

[Ferris]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/13/resounding-conservative-election-victory-local-devolved-polls

Imagine this droid's reaction if Corbyn lost 300 seats in a council election. Do you think his next column would be 'Well, that wasn't so bad when you drill down'?

Martin had better watch his back, shouldn't be doing mental gymnastics like that at his age.

[jobotic]

Anyone fancy a night out? Cyanide pills are on me!

https://avalonuk.com/2021/04/14/matt-forde-announces-3-political-party-specials-at-the-garrick/

[PlanktonSideburns]

He looks like shit these days.

He always has a look about him like he's been doorstepped by the peadohunters but they haven't broken him yet

[Mr_Simnock]

Lolzz

[idunnosomename]

who wants to see forum least-favourite fatt morde laughing in Shami Chakrabarti's face when she says it's bad for massive corporations to patent vital vaccines they've been given public funding to get scientists to develop

https://twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1392820647550758914

well no one. but there you go

[gib]

Lolzz

it was a belter of a post, yeah

[holyzombiejesus]

United's Howard Beckett's having a great day. First, the Anna Turley case, then a massive, massive racism.

Think you're being a cunt tad disingenuous there. It's a stupid thing of him to tweet and the leadership will fucking love it. Off the NEC? Can he be removed from the Unite ballot  too?

[Buelligan]

Yeah all the FBPE Friends of BAE Systems centrist cunts are shitting themselves inside-out today for fear Beckett might win.  I sincerely hope he does.  I hope with all my heart he thrashes that keithcunt Coyle into outer space.

[holyzombiejesus]

I'm guessing a lot of people will be doing whatever they can to ensure he doesn't get that chance now. The mock outrage will be horrible. Fucking idiot giving them such an open goal.

[jamiefairlie]

He looks like shit these days.

[idunnosomename]

god rik mayall was five years younger. how depressing.

[jamiefairlie]

It's Calvinism vs Universalism, or Theravada vs Mahayana. The one thing a lot of Greens share with the Lib Dems is this Calvinist idea that they are in the elect, their goal is to be virtuous by joining Friends of the Earth, recycling, and voting for a non-mainstream party, without really caring about the majority of people who're less well off. The alternative belief is that nobody's saved unless everybody's saved (living happy and fulfilling lives), which is what socialism should be.

Precisely. They're only good as pressure groups to nudge the other parties. Ideologues don't make good leaders.