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Democracy but only for some

Started by Buelligan, May 10, 2021, 12:12:03 PM

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Drygate

Great. More content for facial recognition apps like Clear View AI to help them build their data bases.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: jobotic on May 10, 2021, 02:26:36 PM
What? Why do you have any faith in that happening?

Because they (the gov) mentioned it and it would be open to legal challenges otherwise.  If they did not provide free voter IDs then they would be undeniably saying there is a personal financial cost to voting; call it a voters tax if you like and tell people that people like Captain Tom didn't fight the Luftwaffe with his bare hands to the have to pay his hard earned money on having to vote.

I'm not disagreeing with what their intentions might be I'm just (as per) looking at solutions rather then screaming into the void, because it does the square root of fuck all.

Pranet

The idea is that you will be able to get a free id card from your local council.

But the point is, (aside from the wider implications around privacy discussed up thread, I'm just talking about this in terms of voter suppression) every obstacle put in front of the ability to vote will decrease the vote, b because people can't be arsed, forget, don't trust the government, don't realise what they need to do etc, and this measure will tend to affect people who are less likely to vote tory more than their supporters. Like when they changed registration in 2014. Another step in the same direction.


Pranet

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 10, 2021, 02:41:38 PM
I'm not disagreeing with what their intentions might be I'm just (as per) looking at solutions rather then screaming into the void, because it does the square root of fuck all.

Yeah maybe like in America groups will start up encouraging voting but fucking hell that we should need it is distressing.

Buelligan

And why permit a negative situation to arise and then fight to address it with solutions that won't even get you back to square one if they all work?  Far better to resist the change in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_tax_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft-card_burning

Bernice

Perhaps a law will save us from this terrible law.

greencalx

Quote from: Pranet on May 10, 2021, 12:31:00 PM
Yeah this has been coming for a while. Fuckers. I also see they are planning to change the system of the majoral elections to first past the past the post. You won't believe it it is quite the co-incidence- this system tends to increase the chances of tory candidates.

Yes I noticed the FPTP proposal too. The official reason is that people were spoiling their ballot by ranking more than two candidates. Sounds like the solution then is to allow all candidates to be ranked, rather than just one. Wonder why they didn't consider that?

JamesTC

Quote from: greencalx on May 10, 2021, 03:01:34 PM
Sounds like the solution then is to allow all candidates to be ranked, rather than just one. Wonder why they didn't consider that?

The money would be better spent on babies on life support.

Buelligan

Interesting though, isn't it, how much thought and time is devoted into levering private information out of our individual control and into the hands of government and their pals?  And how intensely relaxed they are about doing anything that simply makes life better for people.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ournhs/we-must-be-told-what-cummings-and-palantir-are-doing-nhs-data/

Dr Rock

It's not free if you have to pay six quid to use one of them passport photo machines.

Kankurette

Quote from: Buelligan on May 10, 2021, 01:02:07 PM
I agree, it's absolutely sinister.  My objection is not that I'm an international criminal or terrorist but I like to keep that option open in the event that government goes rogue - which far more likely as me going rogue myself. 

Once people allow this sort of device for controlling people to exist, it will be too late to stop evil people from using it in evil ways.  It's not as if evil people don't exist or that time for them to do evil is finite.  I'm not on FB or google and I even used a burner to open my email account, I keep my life private because I choose to.
Do they have it in France yet?

I really, really do not like this but as Paul says, I'm not surprised either. I wonder if all the anti-mask/antivaxx crowd are going to be up in arms about it.

Buelligan

Since Brexit I've not been allowed to vote here but before that, I just went to the polling station, like in the UK and voted, no ID required.

Sebastian Cobb

Quote from: greencalx on May 10, 2021, 03:01:34 PM
Yes I noticed the FPTP proposal too. The official reason is that people were spoiling their ballot by ranking more than two candidates. Sounds like the solution then is to allow all candidates to be ranked, rather than just one. Wonder why they didn't consider that?

This sounds odd, given although a cross can be given they should accept 'clear preference', which means the #1 could've easily been accepted.

In Scotland it made the news that a ballot was accepted where someone had written 'good guy' next to their choice and 'wank' next to every other candidate.



https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13163115.unspun---politics-diary/

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Buelligan on May 10, 2021, 02:49:10 PM
And why permit a negative situation to arise and then fight to address it with solutions that won't even get you back to square one if they all work?  Far better to resist the change in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poll_tax_riots
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft-card_burning
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/shouting-at-people-that-generally-agree-with-you-on-internet-forums-about-things

You missed one.

also obviously you can do both; but if the sum of your attempts to "not permit" something to happen is to get angry and judge a load of people on internet forums then I think we can skip all of that guff and start planning for when it inevitably does happen.

Blinder Data

If only we all supported Tony Blair's plans for ID cards at the time, we would be in a much better place!!!

I jest. But more and more I reckon ID cards, like you have in European countries, are a good idea as long as everyone gets one and they're free. My next steps as benevolent dictator would be introducing compulsory voting, moving polling days to the weekend, replacing FPTP with STV, etc.

Anyway, this ploy by the Tories is frankly awful and totally indefensible. Hopefully there will be enough opposition to stop it but I wouldn't be surprised if it's forced through and treated like just another battle of the culture war, when it's simply a calculated assault on one's right to vote

Dr Rock

I wonder who will get the contract to make the cards? Not some Tory donor surely.

chveik

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 10, 2021, 03:30:20 PM
You missed one.

also obviously you can do both; but if the sum of your attempts to "not permit" something to happen is to get angry and judge a load of people on internet forums then I think we can skip all of that guff and start planning for when it inevitably does happen.

judging the tory govt? i reckon they'll be fine

Midas


Buelligan

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on May 10, 2021, 03:30:20 PM
You missed one.

also obviously you can do both; but if the sum of your attempts to "not permit" something to happen is to get angry and judge a load of people on internet forums then I think we can skip all of that guff and start planning for when it inevitably does happen.

Don't try and pick a fight with me again.  It's boring.  It derails interesting conversations.  It's obsessive. 

Zetetic

I don't think anyone has linked to this yet, which is what they have in Northern Ireland (which has required voter ID for quite a while):
https://www.eoni.org.uk/Electoral-Identity-Card/How-to-apply

I don't know if the current GB proposals reference the NI experience and setup or not; I've not looked.

Quote from: Blinder Data on May 10, 2021, 03:34:26 PM
I jest. But more and more I reckon ID cards, like you have in European countries, are a good idea as long as everyone gets one and they're free. My next steps as benevolent dictator would be introducing compulsory voting, moving polling days to the weekend, replacing FPTP with STV, etc.

Anyway, this ploy by the Tories is frankly awful and totally indefensible. Hopefully there will be enough opposition to stop it but I wouldn't be surprised if it's forced through and treated like just another battle of the culture war, when it's an assault on someone's right to vote

Yeah, I mean obviously the intended effect is to disenfranchise people who are less likely to vote Tory, as, generally, the Conservative instinct is to be against identity documents and anything else which infringes on "freedom" (or at least that always used to be the case; I don't know if this new breed of authoritarian flag wanker is the same).

Like you say, most European countries have ID cards, and in my experience they make everything much easier.  All these things that get Daily Mail readers frothing rabidly are solved by having ID cards, like "health tourism", electoral fraud, being refused sale of alcohol at the supermarket, or eligibility for benefits.  You just get it out your wallet without thinking, and that's it.  I remember not so many years ago being required to produce "two utility bills" for proof of something or other, and I laughed at how arcane and ridiculous it was that it counted as proof of anything in the 21st century.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Quote from: FerriswheelBueller on May 10, 2021, 01:15:37 PM
Fucking hell.

How does this work for postal votes then?
Oh it doesn't, that's why they're doing it. They saw what happened in America. Can't have that!

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Buelligan on May 10, 2021, 03:50:28 PM
Don't try and pick a fight with me again.  It's boring.  It derails interesting conversations.  It's obsessive.

Sure.

Ferris

Quote from: Pranet on May 10, 2021, 02:45:37 PM
The idea is that you will be able to get a free id card from your local council.

But the point is, (aside from the wider implications around privacy discussed up thread, I'm just talking about this in terms of voter suppression) every obstacle put in front of the ability to vote will decrease the vote, b because people can't be arsed, forget, don't trust the government, don't realise what they need to do etc, and this measure will tend to affect people who are less likely to vote tory more than their supporters. Like when they changed registration in 2014. Another step in the same direction.

Completely agree with this. It's been coming for years, and the current opposition is so busy doing turds in their own trousers they will waltz home with the policy.

Quote from: Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse on May 10, 2021, 04:47:41 PM
Oh it doesn't, that's why they're doing it. They saw what happened in America. Can't have that!

I think I get turfed off the register in a few months anyway because I've been outside the UK for however long it is and despite being a citizen you lose your vote after a bit for [insert reason here]. They already make it a fucking faff to stay on the register (they take you off every year and you have to request a form by email, then mail in a paper copy to stay on) so this is a logical extension really.


This is another American innovation. It's not solely or even primarily about the cost, it's that many people (who do not vote Tory) will not be bothered to go through the process. The harder you make it to vote, the more the system favours the right-wing party.

Natnar

Wouldn't it be more sensible just to make it so that you can only vote if you take your voting card with you when you vote and use that as ID instead? They could watermark them or something to make it harder to copy them.

Fambo Number Mive

Obviously I'm against voting fraud, but it is particularly annoying that the government which defends breaking international law by claiming they are doing it in a "specific and limited" way is pretending to be concerned about a tiny number of cases of voting fraud.

In a couple of years we'll probably given our ballot already filled out for the Conservative Party and will be asked if we'd like to add a 50p donation towards Johnson's underground gym.

Quote from: Fambo Number Mive on May 13, 2021, 10:30:25 AM

In a couple of years we'll probably given our ballot already filled out for the Conservative Party

It will be assumed all citizens are voting for the current government unless they decide to "opt out".

Icehaven

Quote from: Pranet on May 10, 2021, 02:45:37 PM
The idea is that you will be able to get a free id card from your local council.

But the point is, (aside from the wider implications around privacy discussed up thread, I'm just talking about this in terms of voter suppression) every obstacle put in front of the ability to vote will decrease the vote, b because people can't be arsed, forget, don't trust the government, don't realise what they need to do etc, and this measure will tend to affect people who are less likely to vote tory more than their supporters.

Quote from: Natnar on May 13, 2021, 07:20:38 AM
Wouldn't it be more sensible just to make it so that you can only vote if you take your voting card with you when you vote and use that as ID instead? They could watermark them or something to make it harder to copy them.

I worked in a polling station last Thursday and a fair number of the 200ish people we had through the door, many of whom were old enough to have voted in plenty of elections before, already believed you need to have the card with you to vote so they either presented it to us or started with "Sorry I've not got my card with me, can I still vote?" One guy even apologised and tried to show us his passport, and was surprised when we said you don't need ID at all. It made me wonder how many people didn't vote because they'd lost or not received a card and thought that meant they couldn't vote. It's because it's a card, it gives the impression of being like a ticket or pass or something, so a letter framed more as a notification/reminder of the forthcoming election would be less misleading, but as we've established making it as easy as possible isn't really the current agenda. The queues when they introduce this are going to be phenomenal so that'll be even less people voting when they won't or can't wait for ages.