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Conflating bisexuality with polyamory, etc

Started by Shoulders?-Stomach!, May 13, 2021, 01:15:15 PM

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Shoulders?-Stomach!

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/may/12/im-a-bisexual-woman-stuck-in-a-heterosexual-relationship

I was quite taken aback by this.

First of all, the person writing in may well be bisexual, but the thrust of her introduction is really saying that she feels stuck in a monogamous relationship and wants to end the monogamous aspect of it in order to 'explore', and says she has been suppressing her urges (by this we can take to mean desire to have sex with women) for years.

Firstly, stating the obvious, heterosexual people get urges, it isn't as though you stop being sexually attracted to other people when in a relationship. Bisexuality is irrelevant to that, and, as she says herself, this is something she has known she was for a long time. The ultimatum her boyfriend has given her seems pretty clear: be in a monogamous relationship with me or go and do what you want elsewhere if being with me is making you unhappy or unfulfilled.

In summary, her demand amounts to: 'I wish my boyfriend would agree to change the boundaries of our relationship into an open relationship purely in order that I can see what sex with women is like'. Mega enticing prospect for him there.

But then it gets worse. I naturally assumed the professional reply would point out that the person asking is conflating her bisexuality with a desire for polyamory and spool through standard words of caution regarding trust, relationship dynamics etc.

Instead, she advises that her partner needs education about bisexuality in order to 'recognise who she truly is' and strongly implies that bisexuality and 'sharing a partner' accompany each other. What the hell?

Thomas


I agree, who she wants to fuck is neither here nor there.

Also there's nothing in the writer's letter that says her partner has a problem with bisexuality, the writer was concerned that previous partners had a problem with it, which isn't healthy baggage to bring into her current relationship.

Icehaven

I saw that the other day and was also surprised that she seemed to want to be told - and was - that it's fine to sleep with other people purely because they're women. The logical conclusion of that is that anyone who identifies as bi can only be fulfilled either with a partner of each gender they're attracted to, or in an open relationship, or in no relationship at all, which I'm quite sure is hogwash. In fact there's a couple of BTL comments from bi people who are in happy monogamous relationships and reckon she's not unfulfilled because she's not sleeping with women, she's just unhappy in her relationship.

Also surprised the answer had nothing about what happens if/when feelings start to develop between her and a woman, which is probably what the boyfriend is concerned about as much as the thought of his partner sleeping with someone else. Even if he was OK with her having casual affairs with women (which he obviously isn't) he'd naturally be worried she was going to end up falling for someone and leaving him. It doesn't even apparently occur to the letter writer that this could happen and she seems to imply any involvement she had with women would be purely for sex, which she might think it would be but you never know what's going to happen do you? And she certainly couldn't blame her boyfriend for thinking it too.


Drygate

I agree with all that but...

Quote from: icehaven on May 13, 2021, 01:33:19 PM
Even if he was OK with her having casual affairs with women (which he obviously isn't) he'd naturally be worried she was going to end up falling for someone and leaving him. It doesn't even apparently occur to the letter writer that this could happen and she seems to imply any involvement she had with women would be purely for sex, which she might think it would be but you never know what's going to happen do you? And she certainly couldn't blame her boyfriend for thinking it too.

Couldn't you say that about anything though, not just sex but tennis or cooking classes? Any involvement with people doing those activities might be purely for the tennis or cooking initially but they might end up falling for the people they're playing tennis or cooking with and leave their partner?

I know sex isn't the same as tennis (at least not how I do it) but isn't it a bit controlling to stop your partner from doing what they want to do just in case they meet someone they like more than you and want to leave?

Could that be what the article is getting at - that there's no reason to stop or worry about his partner having sex with other women as they aren't looking to split up and start a relationship with someone else?


Quote from: Drygate on May 13, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
I agree with all that but...

Couldn't you say that about anything though, not just sex but tennis or cooking classes? Any involvement with people doing those activities might be purely for the tennis or cooking initially but they might end up falling for the people they're playing tennis or cooking with and leave their partner?

I know sex isn't the same as tennis (at least not how I do it) but isn't it a bit controlling to stop your partner from doing what they want to do just in case they meet someone they like more than you and want to leave?

Could that be what the article is getting at - that there's no reason to stop or worry about his partner having sex with other women as they aren't looking to split up and start a relationship with someone else?



No, because when you go to an evening class, you're going there to learn something. Making a connection with someone is a lucky(?) coincidence, but not the reason why you're there. If you're going about trying to meet people for sex, that connection is a necessary part of the plan.

What this woman wants to do is cheat on her partner without the associated guilt so she's gaslighting her partner into thinking he's the one with the problem.

Oz Oz Alice

Bisexual in an open relationship here and yes, both parties are talking absolute bollocks: to pull an extra smug trump card on the respondent I'd suggest maybe it's she who needs to educate herself a bit more about non-monogamous relationships. They all work very differently and its not one size fits all: infidelity is just as possible in a non-monogamous relationship as in a monogamous partnership, everyone sets their boundaries differently. This also ignores the fact that polyamory is just as common among gays and straights as it is among bisexuals and that there are plenty of monogamous bisexuals. Some of them even live next door to you!

Kankurette

I'm one. I can't do polyamory. I've had a couple of poly friends get cunty with me because of it but 1) it's none of their business and 2) I am not going to force myself into a relationship I don't like just to get queer cred. I find relationships with one person hard enough, but two? Do not want.

JamesTC

There seems to be a very sneering attitude to bisexuality or other non-binary attraction.

It mostly seems to be aimed at women who do not identify strictly as hetero or homosexual. The common comment you see is a famous woman who is bisexual and you get a torrent of "so you're straight" when they are dating a man. Jameela Jamil comes to mind as a prominent target for this sort of nonsense.

Kankurette

I got that from one of my flatmates in first year. She insisted I was straight and 'into guys' because I'd only had boyfriends. I have been out with more men than women and I haven't had sex with a woman yet, and I have a huge complex about it but I think I know my own sexuality better than anyone else. It took me years to come to terms with the fact I was bisexual. I identified as lesbian for a bit until I fell in love with a guy who I ended up with for three years. Human sexuality is complicated sometimes. One of my stepdad's mates was married to a woman, then they split up and now he's with a man and I think it took him years to realise he was bi. Re Jameela, bi men get it the other way round, a lot of 'you're gay, you're just in denial'.

Also no, I do not want to have a threesome with you and your girlfriend, random bloke in Jilly's Rockworld.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

My partner (also bi, been in short/long relationships with men and women) described her orientation as simply not having gender as a barrier to attraction. Once you look at it like that why should any bisexual have to justify themselves for having a monogamous relationship with a single individual who isn't bisexual? It's preposterous.

It doesn't help that bisexuality has in the past been abused, sometimes a nice label when younger to apply in certain company. At the same time a lot of people are a bit gay/not 100% straight and wouldn't think of themselves or call themselves bi, per se, when they may be and are repressing it. We already know that when it comes to self-identifying there are a lot of external factors that when mixed with someone's existing neuroses can be a negative influence.

dissolute ocelot

You do sometimes see bi people in monogamous relationships with the opposite sex talk about affirming their bisexuality. Which can often mean things like getting involved with the LGBT+ community, volunteering with LGBT organisations, going to queer book groups or nightclubs, etc. I guess if you identify as a bisexual and are sick of people saying uninformed things about bisexuality (present company excepted, obviously) then maybe you want to "do something bisexual", and maybe you're sick of your boring straight friends with their tedious heteronormative dinner parties and heterosexual pictionary games and want to meet more interesting people. But it doesn't necessarily require having sex with someone else.

Dex Sawash

Quote from: Drygate on May 13, 2021, 02:15:08 PM
I agree with all that but...

Couldn't you say that about anything though, not just sex but tennis or cooking classes? Any involvement with people doing those activities might be purely for the tennis or cooking initially but they might end up falling for the people they're playing tennis or cooking with and leave their partner?

I know sex isn't the same as tennis (at least not how I do it) but isn't it a bit controlling to stop your partner from doing what they want to do just in case they meet someone they like more than you and want to leave?

Could that be what the article is getting at - that there's no reason to stop or worry about his partner having sex with other women as they aren't looking to split up and start a relationship with someone else?


I've left my wife and am wanking on a tennis court as I type this

flotemysost

I saw this letter a couple of days ago too and I dunno, I think a lot of the comments (on the Guardian site) are being quite unfair on the letter writer. Nowhere in the letter does she actually say she's expecting her partner to open up the relationship, allow her to see other women or be poly.

All she says (and admittedly it's probably been edited down, but that's all we've got to go on) is that she (quite understandably) initially witheld her bisexuality from her current partner because of negative reactions from previous partners (which I can imagine might have been pretty traumatic, and would probably make you quite guarded/wary with future partners), but has now opened up to him, and in the face of an (also quite understandable) ultimatum from him, is feeling torn between staying with her current partner, or exploring an obviously significant aspect of her sexuality and identity. I don't see anything unreasonable in there.

Admittedly this isn't a situation I have experience of, but I think lots of the comments scoffing that this has nothing to do with her bisexuality and are just about her wanting to shag around, come across (ironically) as pretty biphobic. It's a trope as old as the hills that bi people are just "greedy", hypersexual or can't make their minds up, but that's not to say that it's not still a very damaging one.

As I say, this isn't something I've been through myself but I can only imagine that yearning for an experience which you feel is a fundamental aspect of your identity but also not wanting to compromise or lose a (presumably) good relationship with someone you love must be a really difficult and upsetting quandary.

bgmnts

Yeah I dont think the sexual orientation and the desire to be in an open relationship are connected at all, beyond her maybe using her sexuality as a weapon to gaslight her partner or as a shield to defend herself from criticism.

Fuck who you want, as many as you want, as long as there is consent. DONE.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: flotemysostAs I say, this isn't something I've been through myself but I can only imagine that yearning for an experience which you feel is a fundamental aspect of your identity but also not wanting to compromise or lose a (presumably) good relationship with someone you love must be a really difficult and upsetting quandary.

I agree, I was thinking similarly this morning before mulling over starting the thread. It's well worth making this point and thanks for doing so.

I think it comes back to the same thing though - all people in monogamous relationships have desires they can't act on, from mundane hobbies they just aren't allowed to do, or are shut off by some way the relationship operates, or may like to explore, to wanting, whether that's on a whim or permanently there, to experience sex with some other people. It is the compromise, finding ways both of you get an amount of fulfillment that makes you happy without becoming resentful.

Ultimately the choice at hand is about accepting the terms of the monogamous relationship that existed when it begun, or not, rather than her bisexuality, unexplored or otherwise, which in this instance just happens to be the push factor, when it could just as easily be about a curiosity or unfulfilled yearning for many other things that an individual could feel is as important, or even more important than their sexual orientation.

flotemysost

Quote from: bgmnts on May 13, 2021, 06:01:39 PM
Yeah I dont think the sexual orientation and the desire to be in an open relationship are connected at all, beyond her maybe using her sexuality as a weapon to gaslight her partner or as a shield to defend herself from criticism.

Fuck who you want, as many as you want, as long as there is consent. DONE.

But did the letter writer actually say anywhere that she wanted to be in an open relationship? I think lots of people are inferring that she's demanded he opens up their relationship, but all she says is that she's torn between staying with her current partner (who has, not unreasonably, given her an ultimatum of stay in a monogamous relationship with him, or leave), and exploring her sexuality without him.

Of course realistically she will have to reach a decision and it doesn't sound like there's an ideal compromise here, but think all the people assuming "oh she just wants to have her cake and eat it" are being a bit unfair. I don't see anything suggesting gaslighting (on her part) from it either. I get what you're saying bgmnts with the "fuck who you want" attitude (and I don't disagree) but I know for lots of bi people it is sadly a bit more complicated than that, thanks to widespread homophobia and bi-erasure in society.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: flotemysostBut did the letter writer actually say anywhere that she wanted to be in an open relationship? I think lots of people are inferring that she's demanded he opens up their relationship

I think people are inferring that because there would be no reason for the person to object if all the writer wanted to 'explore' was some talks, workshops and reading material. Pamela Stephenson in her response inferred that she meant exploring her attraction to women in a physical sense, and other than the fact her response was shite, she at least got that bit right.

If what we are talking about is the writer's desire to experience physical intimacy with women rather than a desire to live in an open relationship then even in that scenario it's still straightforward (and I acknowledge you are not saying otherwise) to understand why the other person in a long term relationship with them, who thought they were in a monogamous relationship, would not be OK with finding that out and be 100% justified to say so and explain why (so long as they did it respectfully).

I completely sympathise that the person wants to experience who they are at their fullest. Her, you, me and everyone else on the planet.

Zetetic

What does this mean?

"But I have still been suppressing my urges for years, and I now feel as if my desires are overpowering that suppression."

Desire to "be" "bisexual" in contrast to "heterosexual"? Functionally "bisexual"?

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: Zetetic on May 13, 2021, 06:31:59 PM
What does this mean?

"But I have still been suppressing my urges for years, and I now feel as if my desires are overpowering that suppression."

Desire to "be" "bisexual" in contrast to "heterosexual"? Functionally "bisexual"?

Yes, Urges to..Desires to.....

...it isn't Attend a TedTalk on bisexual visibility in the fourth sector, by any chance?

flotemysost

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on May 13, 2021, 06:25:42 PM
I think people are inferring that because there would be no reason for the person to object if all the writer wanted to 'explore' was some talks, workshops and reading material. Pamela Stephenson in her response inferred that she meant exploring her attraction to women in a physical sense, and other than the fact her response was shite, she at least got that bit right.

If what we are talking about is the writer's desire to experience physical intimacy with women rather than a desire to live in an open relationship then even in that scenario it's still straightforward (and I acknowledge you are not saying otherwise) to understand why the other person in a long term relationship with them, who thought they were in a monogamous relationship, would not be OK with finding that out and be 100% justified to say so and explain why (so long as they did it respectfully).

I completely sympathise that the person wants to experience who they are at their fullest. Her, you, me and everyone else on the planet.

Oh yes, I assumed that the letter writer meant "exploring" in a physical sense too, that seems pretty obvious. And as I said, it's certainly not unreasonable for her partner to want either the monogamous relationship with her which he originally signed up for, or to end it and allow them both to move on.

It just seems like lots of people are assuming she asked him to have an open relationship when there's actually nothing in the letter that confirms that. That doesn't mean she doesn't want to have sex with women obviously, it's just that all she says is that she's torn between staying with her partner and exploring her sexuality with other women - there's nothing in there stating she demanded both at the same time. To me it sounds like the partner can tell she's clearly conflicted and unfulfilled, after her being honest with him, and is offering her the option of ending it now so that they can both move on in a way which hopefully minimises the hurt for them both.

Agree PSC is making some pretty big assumptions about the partner not accepting her for who she is, it's certainly possible (and definitely not uncommon for bi people coming out to their partners - as the letter writer says she has experienced in previous relationships) but again there's nothing that specifically suggests that in the letter (at least the edited version).

Zetetic

I suppose, in the absence of any assumptions, all PSC could really respond with is "Okay", which I suspect doesn't fulfil her contractual obligations.

Zetetic


Shoulders?-Stomach!


Mobbd

Quote from: icehaven on May 13, 2021, 01:33:19 PM
The logical conclusion of that is that anyone who identifies as bi can only be fulfilled either with a partner of each gender they're attracted to, or in an open relationship, or in no relationship at all, which I'm quite sure is hogwash.

Bisexual[nb]Just as an aside, we try to remember to say "Pansexual" now but I'll stick to Bi here since that's the word used in the article. Even if a Bi person isn't knowingly attracted to non-binary people, it is not for that Bi person to assume the people they fancy are one gender or another. Pan wins.[/nb] male with a female partner here.

I remember confronting a Christian right-winger about his biphobia. It turned out he thought Bisexuals needed two partners, and the non-monogamy was what he found objectionable and not the same-sex sexin'. At the time I figured he was essentially a one-off and that nobody in their right mind would think that Bi people needed two sexual partners. We just like both/all sexes. But apparently people really do think this, even broadsheet sex-and-relationships experts. Sigh.

My partner mentioned this PSC piece the other day, fuming slightly. She gets a mild amount of shit about being with a Bi man ("What if he leaves you for a man?" they say. "What if he leaves me for a woman?" being the obvious response) and she saw this column (rightly) as hardly conducive to the education people still apparently need around Bisexuality.


Kankurette

I call myself bi because it's easier. Doesn't mean I'm not attracted to non-binary people. I've never been out with one but that's not to say that there isn't the chance I might end up with Mx Right instead of Mr or Ms Right.

I know for a fact I am neither straight nor gay. I'm somewhere in the middle.

Oz Oz Alice

Quote from: Mobbd on May 13, 2021, 08:35:51 PM
We just like all sexes, even broadsheet sex-and-relationships experts. Sigh.

Now that's taking it too far even for me.

Quote from: Kankurette on May 13, 2021, 08:42:20 PM
I call myself bi because it's easier. Doesn't mean I'm not attracted to non-binary people.

I do the same as a non-binary person who on my best days find the idea of gender (as opposed to sex) quite cute and quaint and on my worst days wishes we'd get rid of the whole fucking social construct considering how much agonising it took me to get to the point where I realised that neither applies to me and that's actually fine.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

Why do I get the feeling that the letter is made up, so is the reply, and it's all just an attempt to paint the Bs (this time) as "degenerate"?

Oz Oz Alice

Entirely plausible and in line with the Guardian's current New Puritan tendencies.