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Conflating bisexuality with polyamory, etc

Started by Shoulders?-Stomach!, May 13, 2021, 01:15:15 PM

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phes

It's like a porno mag agony aunt. can't believe anyone is taking the piece in question seriously

canadagoose

As someone who's mostly on the "bi spectrum", I kind of know what the letter-writer is feeling, but maybe for different reasons. It's possible to be romantically attached to a man and yet crave intimate relations with a woman. In my case I'm not sure I'm properly bi, insofar as I'm more sexually attracted to women but that wasn't always the case and I have had really meaningful romantic connections with men, although usually feminine men, and people I assumed were men who actually turn out to be non-binary. But sometimes there's just a certain connection that you only really get with other women, and it's very tempting to go for it.

I think the most important thing is that you're not cheating. If your partner is OK with you doing stuff with another person, who cares? If they're not OK with it and you value the relationship you have with your partner, it's probably not worth it. Just have a laqer and a wank instead.

mothman

This article made me so furious when I read it, so much so I spent a lot of time wondering why it did so. And I realised - I think, I hope - that the sexual orientation isn't the issue, not really. OK, she knew she was probably bisexual but chose not to impart that to her new partner for rather murky reasons. First off, what did she think was going to happen? Either her alternate feelings would go away via the power of heterosexual monogamousity, or... what? Well, she kicked that can down the road and now those chickens have come home to roost. But really it boils down to this: she wants to fuck other people. Her partner isn't down with that. WHO (what? which?) she wants to fuck is irrelevant. And she frames this as her partner "denying her the chance to explore her sexuality." It's almost obscene in its banality and self-absorption. If this turned up on /r/AmITheAsshole, it'd be YTAs across the board; on /r/relationships, everyone would be calling it bogus. And don't get me started on Pamela bloody Stephenson's response...

chveik

is this stuff for people that can't afford to see a therapist?

Elderly Sumo Prophecy

I'm more likely to conflate polyamory with Balamory.

Shoulders?-Stomach!


Zetetic

Inspired by the fictional partner, I've committed to a full-spectrum bi-erasure in my own household, including but not limited to:
- Banning She-Ra and the Princesses of Power S05E13
- Mandatory three-layer face coverings
- 48 hours of aerial bombardment followed by a ground offensive

My partner is currently several hundred miles away, but it's worked a treat for me.

Drygate

Quote from: mothman on May 14, 2021, 01:16:19 AM
And I realised - I think, I hope - that the sexual orientation isn't the issue, not really.

Would it be more like saying "I've always been attracted to tall men but I thought I'd deny those urges and give it a try with this short guy". She never told the short guy this and started the relationship. Now 10 years in, she can't resist those urges for tall men any longer and isn't sure whether to explore those urges or stick with the short guy or try and open the relationship up etc.

Then to make matters worse, the expert replies that the solution is that the guy needs help to overcome his prejudices against tall men.

The sexual orientation isn't really relevant.

buttgammon

My partner is not exclusively attracted to men - she doesn't put a word to it but I guess bisexual or pansexual would at least gesture towards the right impression - and it's made absolutely no difference to anything in the relationship, other than the odd time when we realise we fancy the same person on the TV or whatever and find it faintly amusing.

Twit 2

Quote from: mothman on May 14, 2021, 01:16:19 AMWell, she kicked that can down the road and now those chickens have come home to roost.


Quote from: mothman on May 14, 2021, 01:16:19 AM
This article made me so furious when I read it, so much so I spent a lot of time wondering why it did so. And I realised - I think, I hope - that the sexual orientation isn't the issue, not really. OK, she knew she was probably bisexual but chose not to impart that to her new partner for rather murky reasons. First off, what did she think was going to happen? Either her alternate feelings would go away via the power of heterosexual monogamousity, or... what? Well, she kicked that can down the road and now those chickens have come home to roost. But really it boils down to this: she wants to fuck other people. Her partner isn't down with that. WHO (what? which?) she wants to fuck is irrelevant. And she frames this as her partner "denying her the chance to explore her sexuality." It's almost obscene in its banality and self-absorption. If this turned up on /r/AmITheAsshole, it'd be YTAs across the board; on /r/relationships, everyone would be calling it bogus. And don't get me started on Pamela bloody Stephenson's response...

It made me incredibly angry too, mainly because I recognise the "justification" all too well. When my ex cheated on me and I started to suspect something was up, she suggested therapy for my "paranoia and jealousy" and when it all properly came out, of course it was my fault because she was "unfulfilled and frustrated".

Like my ex, what this woman wants is to maintain the safety of her current relationship whilst trying to "find herself" or to end it without any heartbreak. Wouldn't those scenarios be lovely? But you can't have that, not without the pain and the guilt and the possibility of it all going wrong and for Stephenson to suggest otherwise is outrageous.


I'm experiencing severe mental and physical anguish due to an overwhelming unfulfilled desire to experience physical intimacy with a woman. It's called being married with kids.

phes

married with kids lost the deso sex-life title a year ago to single during a pandemic

flotemysost

Quote from: mothman on May 14, 2021, 01:16:19 AM
OK, she knew she was probably bisexual but chose not to impart that to her new partner for rather murky reasons. First off, what did she think was going to happen? Either her alternate feelings would go away via the power of heterosexual monogamousity, or... what? Well, she kicked that can down the road and now those chickens have come home to roost. But really it boils down to this: she wants to fuck other people. Her partner isn't down with that.

Surely the key thing though is that she hasn't cheated, and as far as we can tell from the letter, she's not actually expecting him to let her cheat/asking him to be in an open relationship - I mean, we don't know exactly how the conversation went of course, but surely there are other ways of coming out to your partner than "BTW you need to start letting me fuck other women now otherwise you're not accepting who I am" (and tbf the letter writer doesn't actually use that term/make that implication, PSC does, which I agree is a massive jump).

And I disagree her reasons for not coming out earlier in the relationship are "murky", she says she had negative reactions from partners when she was honest about being bi in previous relationships, and also that she worried about the current partner disapproving for moral reasons (which maybe implies he's got very traditional or religious leanings, but obviously we can only guess at that) - still, I don't think her fear sounds that unreasonable. I'm saying this as someone who's never had to come out, and I know every situation is different, but I can imagine for many people it's probably not straightforward. Of course it's not great to have let things go on for this long, but not having been in those shoes I don't feel I'm in a position to judge.

Not sure why I'm jumping to this person's defense so much but I'm a bit surprised at the lack of empathy/acknowledgement of how complicated this might be for a closeted bi person, and the countless assumptions that she's demanding an open relationship when it doesn't actually say that anywhere. If anything I'm more interested to know why she thought the partner would disapprove morally - I took that to mean disapproving of her being bi, not of seeing other women while still in a relationship with him - if so that's a pretty heavy implication (and possibly further evidence they should have ended things far earlier, if their values are that mismatched).

I'm not downplaying the seriousness of gaslighting and emotional abuse in relationships obviously (again, not something I've been through myself) and of course the "you need to permit this behaviour which you don't like, because otherwise you're not letting me be me" excuse gets used in all sort of situations by people looking to cheat on, exploit and abuse their partners. I'm just not sure there's enough to go on here to be sure this situation falls into that category. 

Agree that PSC's column, CiF (or whatever it's called now) and the Guardian in general are largely a steaming heap of shite.

Zetetic

In your reading, what does "But I have still been suppressing my urges for years, and I now feel as if my desires are overpowering that suppression." mean, flotemysost?

When these urges have unsuppressed, what does that look like?

flotemysost

Well, sleeping with other women of course, but my point is that there isn't actually any part in the letter where she says she's expecting to have that at the same time as being with the current partner - just that she's "torn".

I agree it's a bit of a non-dilemma (not saying it isn't a difficult and sad situation for them both, just that there isn't really much anyone can add in terms of advice, it's up to them to decide) but I'm just a bit taken aback by all the assumptions that she's being conniving and selfish, rather than finding herself in an unhappy position (which it does sound was brought about at least partly by the biphobia of her exes, but also her own failure to communicate) and not knowing what to do.

I mean, as with any situation there are countless unknown details and nuances which could completely sway how we read this (is the partner very traditional, hence the worry about him morally disapproving? Has he been cheated on in the past, or has she given him reason not to trust her? Is she under pressure from family etc. to settle down with a male partner?) and without knowing these it's hard and kind of pointless to pass judgement. I dunno why I'm even writing about this still. Just a bit surprised by the vitriol (initially on the Guardian comments, but somewhat on here too).

Kelvin

I tend to agree that the response in this thread has been a bit strong when compared to what we actually know, or can infer, from the letter. She has obviously expressed some sort of interest in being with other people, but it's not clear whether that's actually asking her partner if she can have sex with other people, or whether it's just pining for what she's missed out on. It's also not clear whether it's something they've discussed once or twice over several years, or whether it's something she's regularly applied pressure over. I definitely don't see what she's written as "gaslighting him".

mothman

Quote from: Twit 2 on May 14, 2021, 12:51:24 PM
Quote from: moiWell, she kicked that can down the road and now those chickens have come home to roost.

I was quite proud of that particularly egregious mixed metaphor, and I stand by it.

Midas

#50
Quote
I have still been suppressing my urges for years, and I now feel as if my desires are overpowering that suppression.

Want to re-read Dracula now tbh.

I'm also a wretched, unsatiated ghoul with suppressed urges.

There seems to be an underlying assumption in that Guardian piece that a number of negative stereotypes are considered intrinsically true, particularly this erroneous cliché that only through "exploration" can one "be" bisexual. I think Shoulders described my thoughts on what it means to be bisexual best as simply:

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on May 13, 2021, 03:19:02 PM
not having gender as a barrier to attraction

There's something disingenuous about those Guardian pieces that I can't quite put my finger on, as though they're a fiction attempting to articulate a broader point beyond my perception.

Feeling like a fake bisexual.

flotemysost

Quote from: Midas on May 15, 2021, 12:08:15 AM
Want to re-read Dracula now tbh.


LOL.

I think the thing that dismayed/surprised me about many of the comments on the Guardian was that they seemed to be unwittingly reinforcing a lot of those negative and damaging stereotypes, but I'm also conscious that I am not someone who identifies as bi and so I don't want to make assumptions about how someone in that situation might be feeling (especially re: "exploration") or attempt to speak for them, not having experienced it myself. But also obviously everyone's experience will be different, so I'll leave it at that.

Thanks for both the links in your post.

Zetetic

Quote from: Kelvin on May 14, 2021, 07:52:50 PM
She has obviously expressed some sort of interest in being with other people, but it's not clear whether that's actually asking her partner if she can have sex with other people, or whether it's just pining for what she's missed out on.

Quote from: flotemysost on May 14, 2021, 07:16:06 PM
...but my point is that there isn't actually any part in the letter where she says she's expecting to have that at the same time as being with the current partner - just that she's "torn".

I suppose I'm just desperate for there to be a good reason for the letter to exist, in this context, and the reading that it's just expressing "pining" isn't one that demands much advice.

The fault is in me, seeking meaning where there is none.

Quote from: Zetetic on May 15, 2021, 10:17:15 AM
The fault is in me, seeking meaning where there is none.

Nah, the fault's in the badly edited column/letter

Quote
pining for what she's missed out on.

Doesn't everyone in a LTR to a certain extent though, whether it's sex, career, travel etc?

phes