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ELI5 - "Solidarity", or the Negative Value of Protest

Started by Zetetic, May 15, 2021, 04:58:22 PM

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Zetetic

Or "explain it like Zetetic is a socially inept fuckwit who has no idea how humans work", if you prefer.

This is a miserable thread that encourages doing nothing, so you might want to click back out now on that basis.

Or go here and give a fiver or more to MAP or UNRWA.




There have been marches across the UK in "solidarity" with the Palestinians and a UK Government petition was linked in the other thread.

I think the main effect that these have on the UK and Israeli governments is to confirm that there is no serious opposition in the UK to the latter's actions.

Neither cause any serious inconvenience but they soak up anger and energy and feel like an action - certainly in isolation, they at least weakly signal what the people who don't like you are going to spend their time on. Both often make it clear that the type of people concerned can be safely ignored, because they're not a serious organised threat in terms of force and because they're not a significant constituency to the Conservative party.

This is perhaps most obvious with the petition, with the signatories demonstrably overwhelmingly concentrated in safe Labour constituencies in East London, Birmingham, Leicester and Blackburn/Bolton/Bradford - even before you start to guess at things like age, social views and being a Muslim that also means that mostly the Tories couldn't give a shit what you think.

I note that non-violent protests clearly can be effective when 1) people think you're dangerously violent or uncivilised and 2) the state responds to your peacefulness with non-violence[nb]This might yet happen in Western Europe today.[/nb]. Or 3) you're able to command truly huge numbers of people or for a very extended period of time. I don't think any of these things apply here - although I recognise it's a bit much for me to chuck '3' in there. (Given that there are going to be protests and petitions, perhaps I should just accept that it's still better that they're bigger and act accordingly.)

I do, a bit, appreciate that things like solidarity marches have an immediate function for the people on them and the people they're expressing solidarity for.

Am I wrong about the rest? How am I being stupid?

Zetetic

I have absolutely no idea what else to do other than try to push more people towards boycotts, so I can't pretend I have an alternative.

Buelligan

I think something that might encourage us all is the defeat of the apartheid regime in South Africa, which was achieved through boycotts and political pressure.  Of course Palestine is different, the US is more invested in maintaining its hold and that means supporting Israel, of course, of course.  But Israel needs the US and the US, now under new management, may want to at least give the appearance of not being the foreign policy cunts they are.  They love being lovable, at least at home, and we have the means now to make the unlovability of what's happening in Palestine now impossible to paper over.

I also feel encouraged that Israel has spent so much soft power energy on fighting the BDS initiative, trying to undermine people like Uncle Len and Crobbo, who've supported it.  They wouldn't be wasting their power on it if they didn't fear it and that gives me hope. 

So keep pushing and don't be discouraged, each of us is alone but our energy, focused together, is a whole nother mighty, mighty, thing.  Solidarity.  Never give up.

Zetetic

I agree regarding the power of BDS (and I think there's some value in protesting Welsh Government and the Senedd regarding this)[nb]Tomorrow, outside of the Senedd at 1000, I believe, if anyone cares.[/nb].

Quote from: Buelligan on May 15, 2021, 05:40:45 PM
and the US, now under new management, may want to at least give the appearance of not being the foreign policy cunts they are.

Absolutely not going to happen. There is zero difference in the two U.S. parties as to Israel. (But otherwise I agree and appreciate the optimism of your post.)

peanutbutter

I think this is a case where the in person solidarity does have some level of impact tbh.

Ultimately at some point when this all falls out of the news there's gonna be bullshit allegations of antisemitism levelled towards people supporting BDS and whatnot, it'll be a lot easier for one to not doubt their convictions when they can remember being a part of such widespread support.



Issue is I wonder if it's all too little too late and with Israel, unlikely to ever find itself in the kind of strong position that Adelson and Trump had gifted it over the past 4 year, are basically just setting out to do a full on destruction of the area.

peanutbutter

The most impactful march I can recall in my lifetime was that people's vote march, mind. Hundreds of thousands of people collectively deluding themselves into thinking they were the majority. Don't think I've ever been more misanthropic than walking by it and reading the posters.

Served its intended purpose though.

Kankurette

I guess to raise awareness internationally. The same thing happened with South Africa, didn't it? And hope that it starts to rise upwards and more people take notice.

AllisonSays

I agree with you but I still go on the marches. They're pointless but beautiful, and the beauty is worth something, I think. In the context of Israel and Palestine, given the tenor of the British media it's moving to see 100,000 people on the street in London not adhering to that narrative.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

I think the opening post sets way too high a threshold for determining usefulness, and perhaps doesn't give enough room to appreciate what things like marches and petitions are trying to achieve in the short term en route to the long term goal.

At the same time I agree we are missing a trick and it's the use of technology to group together globally to organise and fix regional problems, as I have been banging on about and will continue to until something emerges.

Buelligan

The marches promote solidarity and remind people they are not alone.  The value of these positive contributions should never be underestimated.  It's the same with all the small visible acts of resistance.  Why do you think Lavazza got so cross?  The are afraid of little stones moving on top of the mountains.  And they should be.


Keep kicking those pebbles

Kankurette

Not every day you see FA Cup winners holding a Palestine flag. Note: before anyone gets cunty at me, this is a GOOD thing.

I don't go on marches. Long story. If anyone wants to know why, PM me because I don't want to turn this thread into an argument. I'd rather do stuff behind the scenes.

AllisonSays

That's fair enough, Kankurette, of course; people do what they can do.

Zet, having played football and largely sloughed off my hangover I wanted to offer a more coherent account of why visible public protest is 'useful' or has value. I think one of the big legacies of Thatcherism that the British left still hasn't come to terms with is the absence of a 'left culture' in people's lives. Politics becomes transactional and the idea of loyalty to a party starts to erode - it's about the sell or the offer or whatever. Protest and protest movements (along with lots of other things, from tenants' unions to explicitly left-wing grassroots football to reading groups to projects like Novara) are, I guess, attempts to embed something like that in public culture.

There are lots of ways in which this attempt hasn't been successful - obviously, haha! - but as a large project I don't see any other one, other than something violent, or waiting for a total collapse of the system and hoping that we can build something in the ashes of that, neither of which two options seem particularly appealing to me.

Another way of saying this, I guess, is that they may not be terrible useful for the Palestinians being carpetbombed, but that doesn't mean they have no value at all, and short of joining the PLA there's not a lot of practical things we can do to help them (although there are some more practical means of showing material solidarity, of course, as you suggest in your other post).

Kankurette

IMO it's better to do something than nothing at all. Look at Choudhry and Fofana. How many people will have been watching that cup final? A lot of football fans are pro-Israel, sure, but equally, plenty aren't - Celtic fans are very pro-Palestine, and in my experience a lot of Liverpool and Everton fans are too.

bgmnts

I have never been on a march or at a protest as I'm a fat fuck who's always had really bad feet.

I feel there are better ways to use your time but better than nkthing.

Zetetic

Quote from: AllisonSays on May 16, 2021, 03:35:52 PM
Protest and protest movements (along with lots of other things, from tenants' unions to explicitly left-wing grassroots football to reading groups to projects like Novara)
These things differ in some quite important ways though.

Reading groups mostly only aim to change the people that attend them. Tenants' unions aim to protect their tenants' rights and emphasise picking winnable battles - for two reasons, both to ensure that limited resources are spent efficiently and because winning battles convinces people of the collective value of the union.

By contrast, demonstrating over and over again the worthlessness of protest by pitting it as a tactic against opponents who don't give a shit[nb]Noting that there clearly are circumstances where you can see both that protest is effective and why - not least thinking about tenants' unions and the way that they can bring pressure to bear on landlords and letting agencies.[/nb][nb]Edit: And not giving a shit in response to that sort of provocation - for want of a better word - is something that entrenched power bases in broadly democratic countries have got and better and better at, I think, as they've understood the value of ignoring protests.[/nb] doesn't seem to be a way to embed something in public culture more widely, it seems a way to preserve something as a narrow group-identity-reinforcing activity.

Such activities aren't fundamentally a bad thing, of course. And perhaps a large part of the problem - for me - is that I'm misunderstanding what people think protests are for which I think is what Buelligan and peanutbutter (and possibly S?S!) are getting at.


Zetetic

Quote from: Kankurette on May 16, 2021, 03:43:37 PM
Look at Choudhry and Fofana. How many people will have been watching that cup final?
I think that's an interesting example where I think there's a really good case for the value of that act, precisely because of the people and context.

Zetetic

Quote from: Kankurette on May 16, 2021, 12:40:16 PM
I don't want to turn this thread into an argument.
I should probably have made it clearer that, from my OP onwards, this thread is an argument - and I'm grateful for all of you making me think about this harder.

AllisonSays

Quote from: Zetetic on May 16, 2021, 04:45:09 PM
These things differ in some quite important ways though.

Reading groups mostly only aim to change the people that attend them. Tenants' unions aim to protect their tenants' rights and emphasise picking winnable battles - for two reasons, both to ensure that limited resources are spent efficiently and because winning battles convinces people of the collective value of the union.

By contrast, demonstrating over and over again the worthlessness of protest by pitting it as a tactic against opponents who don't give a shit[nb]Noting that there clearly are circumstances where you can see both that protest is effective and why - not least thinking about tenants' unions and the way that they can bring pressure to bear on landlords and letting agencies.[/nb][nb]Edit: And not giving a shit in response to that sort of provocation - for want of a better word - is something that entrenched power bases in broadly democratic countries have got and better and better at, I think, as they've understood the value of ignoring protests.[/nb] doesn't seem to be a way to embed something in public culture more widely, it seems a way to preserve something as a narrow group-identity-reinforcing activity.

Such activities aren't fundamentally a bad thing, of course. And perhaps a large part of the problem - for me - is that I'm misunderstanding what people think protests are for which I think is what Buelligan and peanutbutter (and possibly S?S!) are getting at.

It's an interesting question, and I definitely have left-wing friends who would broadly agree with you. Certainly in the city where I live it's a hellofalot easier to get people to go for a wee march with a funny sign than it is to get them to engage in more long-term, boring, gradual, drilling-through-hard-boards forms of activism. For me I totally acknowledge the difference in content between the different examples I gave there, but again I tend to see them all as part of the same project.

I dunno. I feel like for people my age the (completely unsuccessful) mass mobilisation against the Iraq war is kind of the touchstone here. Lots of people were radicalised or brought to radical politics through those completely unsuccessful protests - failure's never just failure.

Kankurette

Protests up here turned nasty apparently. It kicked off in the Arndale Centre.

Reading a thread from a Jewish woman on Mumsnet who's been talking about violence against Jews and I found this comment:
QuoteI feel so sorry for you. But British Jews have a responsibility for speaking out about the appalling way Israel is treating the Palestinians. I know some have, but more need to. Otherwise people will assume (rightly or wrongly) that British Jews support the terrible things Israel are doing.
FFS

PS if you think Jewish women deserve to be raped in revenge for Palestine, you're a danger. You can rape me a thousand times. It won't bring back any of those Palestinians who died.

H-O-W-L

Jewish people and Judaism aren't the problem, the Israeli state government is. Anyone who thinks Jews themselves can be held accountable is a fucking loon.

Buelligan

Quote from: AllisonSays on May 16, 2021, 05:21:34 PM
It's an interesting question, and I definitely have left-wing friends who would broadly agree with you. Certainly in the city where I live it's a hellofalot easier to get people to go for a wee march with a funny sign than it is to get them to engage in more long-term, boring, gradual, drilling-through-hard-boards forms of activism. For me I totally acknowledge the difference in content between the different examples I gave there, but again I tend to see them all as part of the same project.

I dunno. I feel like for people my age the (completely unsuccessful) mass mobilisation against the Iraq war is kind of the touchstone here. Lots of people were radicalised or brought to radical politics through those completely unsuccessful protests - failure's never just failure.

As you say, that deliberate ignoring of the conscience of the people turned the tide on Blair.  And, to an extent, neoliberalism in its entirety.  I can't think of a clearer moment when what appeared righteous (and was subsequently proved to be) was so directly contrasted with what a "righteous" "progressive" government and its leader, was choosing to do.  Iraq was and is obviously terrible because so many people died and suffered and continue to suffer just to line the pockets and pad the power of cunts but it changed something forever about how government is viewed by many people.

pancreas

If a British Jew were deriving some comfort from their right of return to Israel, would they be sufficiently invested in the state of Israel that they should have a moral duty to take a view on its behaviour?

Short of completely repudiating Israel, I think there may be a case here.

Buelligan

There is certainly truth in the idea that a person with ties to a country or other grouping that they live outside of often feels responsibility for that country (or group's) actions.  I still feel a duty to speak out about Britain even though I don't live there and have no wish to, I don't think that's an unusual thing.  And, although I am, obviously, more invested in France and would prefer to be seen as French, I completely accept and understand when people view me as British.

canadagoose

Quote from: Kankurette on May 17, 2021, 01:14:15 AM
Protests up here turned nasty apparently. It kicked off in the Arndale Centre.

Reading a thread from a Jewish woman on Mumsnet who's been talking about violence against Jews and I found this comment:FFS

PS if you think Jewish women deserve to be raped in revenge for Palestine, you're a danger. You can rape me a thousand times. It won't bring back any of those Palestinians who died.
It's extremely annoying when people do that. They don't seem to get that minority groups, ethnic groups, etc, aren't some sort of Borg.

Kankurette

It's the rape thing that creeps me out. Using women's bodies for revenge.

I don't expect Christians to apologise for the USA. I'm not apologising for Israel. I have no ties to it.

bgmnts

Quote from: Kankurette on May 17, 2021, 05:54:52 PM
It's the rape thing that creeps me out. Using women's bodies for revenge.

I don't expect Christians to apologise for the USA. I'm not apologising for Israel. I have no ties to it.

Its like expecting Muslims to be effusively apologetic for fundamentalist Islamic terrorists. It's idiotic.

Yet in the UK and US we go fucking mental if we even just want to teach about the crimes of our past. The hypocrisy is insane.

I wonder if maybe in a 100 years the people of Israel will go through what we are sort of going through now.

And yeah that sort of viewing women that way is as old as time - the eastern front in WW2 spring instantly to mind - its fucking rancid.

Kankurette

I wish more people knew about the role of the British in the Middle East. Most of what I know of the Empire, I didn't learn in school. And if the government have their way then kids will be taught about the Glory of the Empire.

All Surrogate

Quote from: pancreas on May 17, 2021, 11:03:00 AM
If a British Jew were deriving some comfort from their right of return to Israel, would they be sufficiently invested in the state of Israel that they should have a moral duty to take a view on its behaviour?

Short of completely repudiating Israel, I think there may be a case here.

I disagree.