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Volunteering

Started by Icehaven, June 01, 2021, 07:53:52 PM

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Icehaven

My employer (Birmingham city council) has just launched a huge drive to get 13,000 volunteers to staff the Commonwealth Games next year, and it's reignited my - to say the least - ambivalent relationship with the concept of volunteering.

Admittedly I didn't even really question it as anything other than positive until about a decade ago when all that "big society" bullshit turned up and there was a push to basically get public services and jobs like mine (librarian) done by unpaid staff, at which point I perhaps understandably started to think about the further implications. We'd regularly get well meaning folk, mostly comfortably off retirees but with the occasional student wanting work experience, coming in and cheerfully asking if we'd like them to come in a few days a week and 'help out', then wonder why we weren't falling over ourselves with gratitude when they'd effectively offered to do our jobs for free. And that's before you even get on to dealing with the fact that unpaid volunteers are always going to be far less able, and reliable, because they can be.

And with the Commonwealth Games it just smacks of cynically exploiting people's better nature and desire to be involved rather than creating actual paid jobs, which was one of the selling points to having the games in the first place and one of the only practical advantages to the local population anyway.

Obviously all volunteering isn't the same of course, some charities rely on it and put it to good use, but then a lot of charities also pay their execs massive salaries while legions of unpaid volunteers actually do the good work, which again is difficult to see as anything other than exploitative and advantage taking.

I dunno, maybe it's just because I'm generally too in need of cash to even consider ever working for nothing, but even when someone has a passionate belief in what they're volunteering for (... the Commonwealth Games? Really?) it just seems like if it's work that needs doing then it should be a paid job. Brum Council even tried to get staff to 'volunteer' to take Covid tests around high infection areas last year, and my boss blithely asked my colleague and I to sign up for it 2-3 days a week while we were working from home. No fucking way! Once I'd explained why I wouldn't be taking 4 buses a day to go to a centre on the other side of the city to then be shipped out to go door to door in virus hotspots speaking face to face with hundreds of potentially infected people she kind of understood why chucking the word 'volunteer' in there to make it sound like some kind of good deed wasn't going to fly. At all. There's helping others then there's having the fucking piss taken out of you, and I just think all too often an intention to do the former inevitably turns into the latter.

Tldr: Ron Swanson had a point about being paid to work.

Sebastian Cobb

Fuck volunteering for something like the commonwealth games, hardly a food bank or some struggling arts/culture project that benefits wider society is it? Maybe get a few extra million in sponsorship off Coke or Mastercard and employ some lackeys.

Fambo Number Mive

I don't know what happened with London 2012, but if they aren't going to pay Commonwealth Games volunteers it would be nice to offer them the chance to watch one event for free for each day they volunteered. They should of course also pay their transport costs and lunch costs, but I imagine they won't.

I'm not a fan of big sporting events like the Olympics or Commonwealth Games. Hope the residents of Birmingham don't have the same experience some Londoners did during the fucking Olympics - missiles on homes and all that. These events really do feel like an excuse for well off people to pat themselves on the back and watch the opening ceremony where a Dalek's wanking off the local football team's mascot or whatever shit they come up with. Prince William driving a Mini with a Union Jack on it around to the sound of Captain Tom's autobiography being read out, while in the background the day's public executions continue.

Sebastian Cobb

Take it you're not getting much use out the leftover velodrome then?

canadagoose

Yeah, I can see how that's annoying. Volunteering positions are useful for when people don't feel confident enough to go into paid employment, but it's not a replacement for actually employing someone. For charities, it should generally be permissible (unless it's a way of diverting funds to upper-level salaries), but for the Commonwealth Games? Arsed mate, govt should pay.

Dr Rock

It will look good on your CV. If you're trying to get a job as mug.

paruses

I agree with all the above especially the bit about the dalek.

bgmnts

Yeah fuck that, if the athletes want to have a commonwealth games they can set it up themselves.

Fuck any CEO on millions whilst the rest of us are poor or proper slaves, charities or otherwise.

Kankurette

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on June 01, 2021, 07:56:53 PM
Fuck volunteering for something like the commonwealth games, hardly a food bank or some struggling arts/culture project that benefits wider society is it? Maybe get a few extra million in sponsorship off Coke or Mastercard and employ some lackeys.
It is definitely something for which people should be paid.

Mumsnet had a thread recently where someone complained about a library assistant not knowing who wrote As You Like It and people went on and on about how useless library staff are these days. Well, if you WILL vote for a party who cuts library funding...

Sebastian Cobb

Why didn't the lazy visitor look the author up themselves on the library computer terminal?

canadagoose

Quote from: Sebastian Cobb on June 01, 2021, 08:55:19 PM
Why didn't the lazy visitor look the author up themselves on the library computer terminal?
They were probably just being a pseud and asking the assistant to try and humiliate them.

Dr Rock

As You Like It is a play what's it doing in a library? Libraries are for proper books.

Icehaven

Quote from: canadagoose on June 01, 2021, 08:56:26 PM
They were probably just being a pseud and asking the assistant to try and humiliate them.

I once had a bloke say to me "You're a librarian so you'll know about words, if hating women is misogyny, then what's the word for hating men?", so I said it was misandry and he was a bit surprised and went "Oh what is it, misandry? Ok." I think he'd been intending to make the point that there wasn't a word for hating men so hadn't been expecting an answer, but he'd just never heard it.

canadagoose

Quote from: icehaven on June 01, 2021, 09:32:17 PM
I once had a bloke say to me "You're a librarian so you'll know about words, if hating women is misogyny, then what's the word for hating men?", so I said it was misandry and he was a bit surprised and went "Oh what is it, misandry? Ok." I think he'd been intending to make the point that there wasn't a word for hating men so hadn't been expecting an answer, but he'd just never heard it.
Serves him right. Sounds like a pub bore in the making.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: icehaven on June 01, 2021, 09:32:17 PM
I once had a bloke say to me "You're a librarian so you'll know about words, if hating women is misogyny, then what's the word for hating men?", so I said it was misandry and he was a bit surprised and went "Oh what is it, misandry? Ok." I think he'd been intending to make the point that there wasn't a word for hating men so hadn't been expecting an answer, but he'd just never heard it.

.. Oh fuck sake. Something tells me this won't stop the madness.

Pranet

Quote from: Kankurette on June 01, 2021, 08:36:15 PM
It is definitely something for which people should be paid.

Mumsnet had a thread recently where someone complained about a library assistant not knowing who wrote As You Like It and people went on and on about how useless library staff are these days. Well, if you WILL vote for a party who cuts library funding...

Also, public library staff are essentially another arm of social services, round here anyway. Helping people with benefit claims and generally dealing with the lost and bewildered.  They are not there to answer trivia questions. I mean, if they were working in the English Literature department of the library at the University of York the mumsnet twats might have had a point, but otherwise fuck off.

Kankurette

Quote from: canadagoose on June 01, 2021, 08:56:26 PM
They were probably just being a pseud and asking the assistant to try and humiliate them.
This is Mumsnet, damn right they were. They seem to think librarians should be literature experts. They don't seem to realise that libraries have things other than books and a lot of staff are volunteers, and you don't need to be massively into books, although it's a bonus. I was a teenage library assistant and not once did ANYONE ask me for recommendations, same when I worked in Smiths.

Also, customer service is a huge part of a library assistant's job, as Pranet says, including things like helping people fill in forms or booking computers. A lot of people come into my local library to use the computers or do their council tax stuff.

Icehaven, wow, what an utter dild.

ETA: the offending thread

bgmnts

QuoteA bit. The librarian might prefer different authors and know lots about books they are surprised you haven't heard of. Also I haven't read Shakespeare since school and they might not have either.

QuoteIt's THE Handmaid's Tale.

QuoteThere are thousands of books published every year. No one can read everything. Even extremely keen readers only read a few a week...
Shakespeare for example wrote a lot of plays. I could probably name 10or so. I doubt I'm that unusual.
Handmaid's tale... I'm pretty sure more people have watched the TV adaption than read it. And it wouldn't appeal to everyone.

QuoteThey are librarians , not walking encyclopedias , we all have a clink in our knowledge somewhere

QuotePeople shocked that the librarian has never heard of A Handmaid's Tale is hilarious, it's called The Handmaid's Tale. If it's such general knowledge, then why can't people get the title correct? grin

QuoteI think there's some serious subject bias here. Shakespeare knowledge, sure, I guess you'd expect a librarian (assuming, as PP have pointed out that she was a professional librarian and not just a volunteer etc) to know Shakespeare having had a fairly traditional education. But The Handmaid's Tale? Come on. Only people who are interested in feminist literature (or who have watched the TV show) would know that. Again, a professional librarian would likely know it on the basis that if, for example, they had a section for feminist literature, Margaret Attwood would be an obvious major contributor. But that assumes the library includes a specific section on feminist literature, which is a big assumption.

Fuckin rekt

flotemysost

Quote from: Kankurette on June 01, 2021, 10:46:39 PM
This is Mumsnet, damn right they were. They seem to think librarians should be literature experts. They don't seem to realise that libraries have things other than books and a lot of staff are volunteers, and you don't need to be massively into books, although it's a bonus. I was a teenage library assistant and not once did ANYONE ask me for recommendations, same when I worked in Smiths.

Also, customer service is a huge part of a library assistant's job, as Pranet says, including things like helping people fill in forms or booking computers. A lot of people come into my local library to use the computers or do their council tax stuff.

Icehaven, wow, what an utter dild.

ETA: the offending thread

Absolutely. I did work experience in my local library as a teenager and the only thing I really remember was a kid throwing up during the afternoon story time session. Knowing about Shakespeare doesn't get chunks of Cow & Gate out of a carpet.

Obviously libraries have suffered hugely from government cuts, but it reminds me a bit of the (righteous) furore a while ago around Waterstones shop staff being expected to give perosnalised recommendations to customers and have an up-to-date working knowledge of the bestsellers and critic's favourites at any given time.

Never mind that those staff were paid minimum wage, despite often having to work in city centre locations (and therefore would have either had to spend an extortionate amount of their salary on rent, or spend a long time commuting to work, or possibly both) and so might not exactly have the time or energy to absorb every 800-page Booker shortlist nominee.

I suppose that's part of the whole toxic "you should just be grateful to work here!" culture, which has certainly been used in the past to justify countless unpaid internships and the like - I wonder if in some cases "volunteering" is just a more palatable name for the same thing.

Kankurette

The thing with recommendations is, what if they haven't read the books? I could happily tell you about my favourite Robert Jordan or Anne Tyler books, but ask me about Lee Child, Maeve Binchy or Tom Clancy and I'm clueless.

I did my work experience in a college library as a teen and enjoyed it, mainly because there were no kids there, but the only reading I did was on my break. I certainly had no time for reading when I was up and down in the lift shelving books and trying to avoid dropping things on a stray toddler (and I wanted to die when some mum told her kid that the lady, i.e. me, had a special noise alarm for naughty children).

I hate the idea of being grateful to work anywhere. As you say, it's ripe for exploitation. I did consider translation internships when I first started working, but they wouldn't have paid peanuts and even if I'd moved in with my parents, I'd have had to pay for the commute into London.

Zetetic

Quote from: Kankurette on June 01, 2021, 10:46:39 PM
This is Mumsnet, damn right they were. They seem to think librarians should be literature experts.

...
ETA: the offending thread

Literally the first response is:
"Were they a librarian or a library assistant? Or an unpaid library volunteer? Librarian is a profession but there are relatively few actual librarians around. Most local libraries are staffed by unqualified, if keen, staff now."

And the second response is:
"[You are being] A bit [unreasonable]. The librarian might prefer different authors and know lots about books they are surprised you haven't heard of. Also I haven't read Shakespeare since school and they might not have either."

I feel like one of us is losing their mind.

Dr Rock

Am I being Unreasonable?
YABU
or
YANBU
YABU:
65%
YANBU:
35%

Dr Rock

By contrast only 5% voted YABU on the thread I did the other week which was completely made up.

Rev+

Quote from: icehaven on June 01, 2021, 07:53:52 PM
And that's before you even get on to dealing with the fact that unpaid volunteers are always going to be far less able, and reliable, because they can be.

Eh, not sure about that, and it's a bit of a shitty assumption about what motivates people.

I've been a volunteer for the same place for fuck me a decade now, becoming a company director and whatnot, and when I've trained new volunteers you absolutely do get people who fall into certain types.  Retirees who mainly just want to get out of the house, unemployed teenagers who have been told to just fuck off out and do something for a day a week by their parents, or CV builders.  Nothing wrong with wanting to bolster your CV, by the way, but you have to do more than just turn up.

Those people are far in the minority, though, because most of the cohorts I work with fucking love the freedom and trust that comes with doing something that isn't a boxed-in job.  There are people who never use the skills they actually have because their jobs don't allow them to flex them.  We have a general rule of 'if you've got a good idea, you've volunteered to put that into action'.  One example of that was a volunteer who managed to negotiate the rent on our office down by a third, before going back to her job on the checkout at ASDA.  We do not correctly value or recognise peoples' skills, is what I'm saying, and sometimes volunteering lets people cut loose and do what they're better at.

That said, I'm talking about a company with NO paid staff.  Fuck volunteering for any company with a paid manager or the money for paid staff.


Kankurette

Quote from: Zetetic on June 01, 2021, 11:52:58 PM
Literally the first response is:
"Were they a librarian or a library assistant? Or an unpaid library volunteer? Librarian is a profession but there are relatively few actual librarians around. Most local libraries are staffed by unqualified, if keen, staff now."

And the second response is:
"[You are being] A bit [unreasonable]. The librarian might prefer different authors and know lots about books they are surprised you haven't heard of. Also I haven't read Shakespeare since school and they might not have either."

I feel like one of us is losing their mind.
It's the comments later in the thread that get cunty.

Dr Rock

Also, it's a 38 page thread.

chveik

Quote from: Dr Rock on June 02, 2021, 12:36:37 AM
Also, it's a 38 page thread.

kin hell, we need to step up our game!

Janie Jones

It's something that CaB has in common with the Daily Mail, raging against Fat Cat Charity Bosses.

Quote from: Rev+ on June 02, 2021, 12:15:21 AM
Fuck volunteering for any company with a paid manager or the money for paid staff.



This rules out an awful lot of volunteering opportunities. Organising volunteers, training and supporting them well is challenging work and requires a good manager. I guess there are people out there who have the resources to do this managerial work for free, you sound like one yourself, but most large charities employ people to coordinate volunteers and generate income.


Buelligan

I ran (in the sense that I was the person organising, keeping records, chasing up unreturned books, choosing new borrowed books, physically changing them over, making displays, cleaning and helping visitors) our village library for a few years.   Did it because, although I really needed paid work and had some, I had some spare time too, we had no internet then and a lot of old people (for a tiny village) and a small village school, who needed the service.  No one else fancied it.  There was no money to pay anyone.  When I found more work, I had to leave and the library closed but luckily, we had internet by then which filled the gap a bit I think.

Generally speaking I do think that volunteering, whilst a positive thing in theory, gets exploited, used to gloss over the way necessary or valuable services are constantly cut away.  This allows the cutters to give a false impression to the general public that things are OK, when they're not OK at all and getting less so by the day.

Gurke and Hare

Quote from: mumsnet wanker
Who hasn't even heard of A Handmaid's Tale? Even if you haven't read it, it's general knowledge

Someone needs to watch a few episodes of Pointless. A couple of weeks ago there was a picture of a pig, with the legend "P_G" and only 95 out of 100 people correctly identified it so there's probably one or two people who haven't head of The Handmaid's Tale, yeah.