How shy are you?

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

Too shy

[greencalx]

Shyness is multidimensional. If you've been asked to "perform" on a a "platform" (say, give a talk on zoom) then while you are performing, that platform is yours and you are in control. The basic rules are (i) don't overrun and (ii) look like that you at least believe what you are saying. No-one ever complains if you finish short of time (you can always say "plenty of time for questions") but they zone out quickly if you give the impression of not being in control. So, know what you want to say, say it, and if you get hecklers, just say, "That's an interesting question, do you mind if I take it at the end?". Usually by then, enough shit has passed under the bridge that no-one cares anymore.

I am one of those people that has no problem extemporising in front of 200+ people but if I have to call, say, British Gas, to cancel a maintenance agreement I'm quaking in my boots.

[gib]

Too shy

Hush hush

[PaulTMA]

Beta blockers.

They don't do anything for me.  I thought they did initially, but I was watching a Rutles gig when I first gubbed them so it may have just been external forces

[Jockice]

Was going to echo this. If you wanted to do this with a bunch of near-strangers who opinions are of no significance to you whatsoever, I'm sure I and some other Cabbers would be up for this.

Giving an academic talk in front of a group of comedy critics? That actually sounds strangely tempting. Thanks for the offer. I'll certainly consider it. I'd fully expect to be heckled though. "Tell us more about your girlfriend, ginge." Etc etc.

[dannyfc]

Does anyone genuinely like the sound of their own voice?

We had to do a similar thing at work recently where we recorded a 1 minute video and everyone had the same gut reaction of cringing at the playback. It's the stark reality of the disconnect to how you perceive yourself and the cold hard truth.

Personally I'm confident speaking off-script but as soon as i have to structure it formally i completely fall apart and stumble over my words. The only way I get through is reading it word for word from written notes like a 8 year old doing a show 'n tell at school.

A good thing to remember though is generally no-one is paying attention to what youre actually saying. Thats the thing with shyness, everyone is so self-adsorbed it's almost vanity to assume people care enough to scrutinize anything you do too closely. 

[Jockice]

The only way I get through is reading it word for word from written notes like a 8 year old doing a show 'n tell at school.

I actually can't do that. I've been best man at two weddings and at the first it was a cousin of mine who I've known for his entire life. So I spent ages writing a script. I even rehearsed it in private. Then when it came to giving the speech I was so nervous (and I had my new contact lenses in, which were really playing up*) that I couldn't read it. So I just sort of made it up. I know best men are unlikely to get booed off (although I have seen them greeted with near silence) but it seemed to go down pretty well. As did the other one I did for a mate without writing anything down. I've also given speeches at both my parents' funerals (again without notes) so I really don't know why I'm so worried about this. I mean what's the worst that could happen? Actually, don't answer that. I really do fear the worst.

(*About a year later I went to visit my cousin's parents and his mum insisted on putting the wedding video on. When I was giving my speech she said: "Aw, you were really emotional here." I didn't have the heart to tell her that the reason I had tears running down my face and I kept blinking was because I was in physical pain.)

[AllisonSays]

I was shy as a child, then less shy as a drunk teenager, but still pretty dysfunctional in terms of public speaking and that. To some extent I feel like I've been forcing myself out of the shyness for like fifteen years - school plays and indeed regional youth theatre as a kid, then journalism and having to call people and that, and now a job that entails doing all kinds of things I didn't use to be able to do. Speaking in public, extemporising in public, interviewing strangers in their houses or in pubs or cafes or whatever, calling people out of the blue.

But, having said that, it never quite goes away, at least for me! I hate 'making a scene' or being the focus of attention in restaurants, for instance; I tried to do some doorknocking for a union the other day and (while this was partly also to do with not being sure about the efficacy or political usefulness of the doorknocking) I was literally frozen with anxiety and couldn't really do it despite making a bit of an effort.

[Retinend]

These days people describe me as an extravert, or at least would never use the word "shy" referring to me. I tend to initiate conversations, invite people to things and put myself out there ("hey I did this, take a look at this") ... but that's totally at odds with how I regard myself. Namely, as the classic introvert: prefers books to people, would gladly live on a desert island to read them, and has an internal struggle about whether or not -  at the very last minute - to "call in sick" for every social occasion I commit to.

A long time ago I decided that the word "introvert" was a crutch that, though it described me, probably described everyone to a large extent, and which ultimately served to excuse my tendency to take the easy road in life. I even expressed it on these forums, and was told I was wrong wrong wrong: I was a self-hating introvert. And indeed it was clearly a dogmatic POV, but I still believe in the first part - the "crutch" part. The self-criticism has proven true in own my life, at the very least. As a teenager I had few friends and I cultivated the personality of the outsider. These days I try to put people at their ease as much as possible, which includes so-called extraverted behaviours (which come as naturally to me these days as any other behavior).

[MoreauVasz]

I wouldn't say that I'm shy.

I do test as being quite heavily introverted, for what that's worth.

I don't tend to find either of those concepts particularly useful when it comes to making sense of my own actions. My preferred way of thinking about my issues around socialising is that I have very little faith in other people and seldom consider them to be either a good use of my time or a sound investment of emotional energy. That's not because I'm some kind of supernatural genius who refuses to slum it by talking to plebs, it's more a sense that I don't have anything to offer people and they have nothing to offer me, so why bother even pretending?

It's like making stuff. I do it for me and don't share any of it online. People who see what I do often suggest that I should have some kind of social media presence but I am baffled as to why I'd want to do that. It's just not worth the effort.

[Blue Jam]

I wouldn't say that I'm shy.

I do test as being quite heavily introverted, for what that's worth.

I don't tend to find either of those concepts particularly useful when it comes to making sense of my own actions.

The Introvert/Extrovert thing is essentially Jocks vs Nerds with a thin veil of pseudoscience. Lots of stuff about dopamine receptors and acetylcholine which sounds impressive but is obviously bullshit to anyone who actually understands what these neurotransmitters do (having too few dopamine receptors isn't the cause of "introversion" but instead can lead to Parkinson's, for example).

I have to take my hat off to Susan Cain though. The first self-help movement that doesn't tell people "You have a problem, you need to own it and work through it, it will be very hard work but worth it in the end", and instead tells them "There is nothing wrong with you, it's everyone else who is the problem, you need to do absolutely fuck-all, just keep being you because you're awesome (and also a cool, aloof, misunderstood genius)"? No wonder it's so popular. Great way to shift self-help books on neuroscience and psychology but actually written by a lawyer. "Introverted" or not think she may actually be a genius.

[Zetetic]

There's much a longer history of Introversion/Extraversion dimensions coming out in personality/individual differences psychology. In recent decades, that work has been better conducted and its outputs more verifiable.

Yes, the phrenology/neurology stuff is irritating but it overwhelming is in every context - where it either appeals to and reinforces biological essentialism and the primacy of meat over experience and testimony, or seeks to distract us from making changes to how we look after each other in the world outside of our own heads.

Do you believe that the broad claim that some people enjoy socializing more and find it easier than others and harder to enjoy doing things on their own and undergo long periods of isolation is no sense.

Yes, context and specific situations are important to understanding actual behaviour and yes, people can change over time. (As is the case for all aspects of personality.)

[Zetetic]

I guess, I understand your frustration with folk translations and the particular way they drag in neuroscience (even if we have quite different reasons for that) but I'm not sure why this extends the whole idea that there might be some persistent variation between people when it comes to these things.

[Blue Jam]

Do you believe that the broad claim that some people enjoy socializing more and find it easier than others and harder to enjoy doing things on their own and undergo long periods of isolation is no sense.

To me, Introvert = a quiet, reserved person and Extrovert = an outgoing person. Of course there are people who prefer solitude to social situations but I think they need different names. Being outgoing doesn't necessarily mean you enjoy big parties full of strangers and being reserved doesn't mean you like to spend all weekend at the library.

Also some people are very shy and reserved but "come alive on stage" and there's me personally, someone who likes meeting new people and can be very chatty but has a recurring nightmare about being forced to do stand-up comedy... I just think people are more complex than this, and while labels can be useful a lot of people take them far too seriously and end up letting the label wear them.

Yes, context and specific situations are important to understanding actual behaviour and yes, people can change over time. (As is the case for all aspects of personality.)

This is the thing that bothers me the most is the people who claim they are genetically predisposed to a certain personality type and can never change and use that as an excuse to not even try. I know a couple of people who buy into this a bit too much and can see how it's really held them back. For all that some people go on about "The Power Of Introverts" I see so much more about all the things introverts supppsedly can't do, from job interviews to public speaking and other things most people hate but make the effort to get better at. It's very disempowering.

The stuff about introverts supposedly being intellectually superior is also just plain obnoxious. I don't know how people can genuinely look at people with well-developed social skills and think "Nah, they must be really dumb".

[Zetetic]

I take your point about excuse-making or disempowerment, and I think there is something very interesting about how "understanding yourself better" can be both enabling and disabling.

[Zetetic]

And it's clearly similar for other descriptions of (variably) persistent individual differences - "autism", mental illness descriptors - these are extremely crude and making sense of them in any specific situation with a particular person is complex, even if we think that they're ultimately at least a bit useful.

[chveik]

self-help doctrines are always based on pseudo-science or pop psychology. you don't really get to pick and choose one that you hate for those reasons and let the others off the hook.

[bollocks]

does being a lurker count?

[MoreauVasz]

Yes, the phrenology/neurology stuff is irritating but it overwhelming is in every context - where it either appeals to and reinforces biological essentialism and the primacy of meat over experience and testimony, or seeks to distract us from making changes to how we look after each other in the world outside of our own heads.

The discourse surrounding introversion does echo the discourse coming out of the incel spaces in so far as it's a problem that is presented as being so intractable as to there being no point in even trying to overcome it. Incels see no point in trying to find partners as they're less than 5 foot 10 and their skull shapes are all wrong. Introverts just surrender stuff like community leadership and managerial positions because their neurotransmitters mean they'll never be as good at it as an extrovert, so why try?

[Sebastian Cobb]

Introverts just surrender stuff like community leadership and managerial positions because their neurotransmitters mean they'll never be as good at it as an extrovert, so why try?

Is that worse than surrendering it because it's quite wearing and you can't be fucked?

Less honest, perhaps.

[MoreauVasz]

Less honest, perhaps.

Yes. It's like a permanent case of the terrible cold that prevents you from attending the birthday party of the person you don't really like. You get an excuse for not trying, they get to save face.

[JaDanketies]

I would say I'm possibly one of the least-shy people you'll ever meet.  My shyness-gland must be misfunctioning.

[Dex Sawash]

does being a lurker count?

Hiya lurker mate

[Kankurette]

Shyness is multidimensional. If you've been asked to "perform" on a a "platform" (say, give a talk on zoom) then while you are performing, that platform is yours and you are in control. The basic rules are (i) don't overrun and (ii) look like that you at least believe what you are saying. No-one ever complains if you finish short of time (you can always say "plenty of time for questions") but they zone out quickly if you give the impression of not being in control. So, know what you want to say, say it, and if you get hecklers, just say, "That's an interesting question, do you mind if I take it at the end?". Usually by then, enough shit has passed under the bridge that no-one cares anymore.

I am one of those people that has no problem extemporising in front of 200+ people but if I have to call, say, British Gas, to cancel a maintenance agreement I'm quaking in my boots.

Same. I've helped lead a service at synagogue and sung onstage with Space at a festival and not shat myself, but I fucking hate phoning people, especially if it's about things I'm clueless about like contracts, or having to search for a technician of some kind (except electricians, I've got a lovely one who's been over a few times).

The introvert/extrovert dichotomy is balls. My mum is an introvert but she's great at talking to people. An old uni friend is an extrovert but she has days where she just wants to chill and have her own space. Hell, I'M an introvert and even I crave company sometimes.

[Blue Jam]

The discourse surrounding introversion does echo the discourse coming out of the incel spaces in so far as it's a problem that is presented as being so intractable as to there being no point in even trying to overcome it. Incels see no point in trying to find partners as they're less than 5 foot 10 and their skull shapes are all wrong. Introverts just surrender stuff like community leadership and managerial positions because their neurotransmitters mean they'll never be as good at it as an extrovert, so why try?

Yes, it's the same thing of "I can't adapt to the world so the world must adapt to me", and not only is that pretty arrogant (and a bit of an insult to people with actual disabilities who genuinely do need adaptations to be made for them) but waiting for the world to change is also futile. Incels want women to lower their standards and to receive a government-issued girlfriend. Introverts want workplaces to be more "introvert-friendly" and for employers to recognise their talents without them having to go to interviews or speak up at meetings or present their work or claim credit for it. Everyone else accepts that if they want something they're going to have to work for it.

Yes. It's like a permanent case of the terrible cold that prevents you from attending the birthday party of the person you don't really like. You get an excuse for not trying, they get to save face.

Yes, it's stuff like this:

https://introvertdear.com/news/introvert-quirks-that-seem-rude-but-arent/

...where someone has gone "People keep saying my behaviour is rude, should I make an effort to examine it and change? Nah, I'll channel that effort into compiling all my excuses into a long article and keep telling myself everyone else must be wrong". #2 on that list especially- nope, calling yourself an "introvert" does not somehow make it alright to constantly flake out on plans at the last minute, people who do that want graving whatever they got on their Myers-Briggs test.

I see a lot of this with people claiming it's not fair that workplaces favour "Extroverts" and will pass over "Introverts" for promotion. Have these people ever considered that those colleagues who speak up in meetings, loudly claim credit for work (their own or someone else's), attend all the birthday parties and Xmas dos, go to lots of networking events etc may not actualy be "Extroverts" with an unfair genetic advantage, but simply people who are, you know, just trying a bit harder? Or that they may not actually enjoy all this stuff either but make an effort to get over their fear and loathing? Fear of public speaking is one of the most common phobias in the world, networking with strangers is nerve-wracking, and office Christmas parties are a weird situation where you're supposed to get drunk and let your hair down but not too much because you're still in Work Mode so they're inherently awkward and stressful. Everyone struggles with these things- that's not "introverted", it's normal.

A few years back I went on a team leadership skills workshop. The trainer said he'd previously held a workshop at a certain very large research centre where staff had been consulted about the design of the new building and by far the most common suggestion was " individual offices". No-one actually likes open-plan offices, there's a reason why having one's own office is such a privilege. If an employer decided to give individual offices to "Introverts" and put the "Extroverts" in the open-plan offices they'd find about 100% of their employees identifying as "Introverts".

The introvert/extrovert dichotomy is balls. My mum is an introvert but she's great at talking to people. An old uni friend is an extrovert but she has days where she just wants to chill and have her own space. Hell, I'M an introvert and even I crave company sometimes.

The definitions of "Introvert" and "extrovert" have become so broad they're essentially meaningless. I used to see people on Reddit post stuff like "People are always surprised when I tell them I'm an introvert. I'm in a debate society at college, I'm in a band, I do a bit of stand-up comedy at my local open mic night..." and I always thought "Hang on, I thought I leaned more towards being an extrovert but everything you've described sounds like my worst nightmare". I have a friend who loves to share introvert memes on Facebook in between posts about her pub quiz teams, hiking groups, and how she can't wait to go to the next ComicCon and meet loads of new people. I once heard someone describe himself as an introvert while giving a talk to a few hundred people in a lecture theatre. Then there's all the stuff about how "introverted" does not equal "shy" and you can be a confident introvert, an outgoing introvert, an extroverted introvert... I think a lot of people just like the idea of being in a minority who are aloof and deep and special and will try all sorts of mental contortionism to fit themselves into that box.

I once saw a quote along the lines of "Everybody is an introvert and extroverts don't really exist" and that's how I see it. Everyone needs alone time, and I've never met an extrovert as the internet describes them. Who the hell gets to the end of the Xmas party season and thinks "Wow, I feel so awake and energised now. I'd do all that again tomorrow" (apart from Wizzard)?

[chveik]

Yes, it's the same thing of "I can't adapt to the world so the world must adapt to me", and not only is that pretty arrogant (and a bit of an insult to people with actual disabilities who genuinely do need adaptations to be made for them) but waiting for the world to change is also futile. Incels want women to lower their standards and to receive a government-issued girlfriend. Introverts want workplaces to be more "introvert-friendly" and for employers to recognise their talents without them having to go to interviews or speak up at meetings or present their work or claim credit for it. Everyone else accepts that if they want something they're going to have to work for it.

thinking of having to do this kind of stuff gives me automatically suicidal thoughts (and not just work, most social situations). i have technically a disability but it's not the clear and obvious type which always makes me think that i might just be a worthless lazy cunt. i suppose calling yourself an introvert might keep the old self-loathing at bay for some people.

[JaDanketies]

I once saw a quote along the lines of "Everybody is an introvert and extroverts don't really exist" and that's how I see it. Everyone needs alone time, and I've never met an extrovert as the internet describes them. Who the hell gets to the end of the Xmas party season and thinks "Wow, I feel so awake and energised now. I'd do all that again tomorrow" (apart from Wizzard)?

I think I'm also totally an extrovert too. I sometimes wave and even chat to people in the street. But then I guess I got my hair cut recently and didn't talk much to the barber. He seemed like he wanted to pay attention to the Big Bang Theory. I think I'd like it if Christmas lasted longer.

[Blue Jam]

thinking of having to do this kind of stuff gives me automatically suicidal thoughts (and not just work, most social situations). i have technically a disability but it's not the clear and obvious type which always makes me think that i might just be a worthless lazy cunt. i suppose calling yourself an introvert might keep the old self-loathing at bay for some people.

That's another problem here- the whole "introvert" thing must seem like a slap in the face for people with actual diagnosed disabilities. Why should we strive to make workplaces "introvert-friendly" when many aren't yet LGBT+ friendly, autism friendly, wheelchair-friendly etc?

A few years ago I left a job after I got signed off with anxiety (generalised, not social), largely thanks to bullying and a toxic work environment. My boss and the HR peeps handled it really, really badly, even asking if I could come to work out-of-hours so I could get my work done while avoiding the people who had caused the problem- ie, asking me to defy doctors' orders (and that's the moment I hit "send" on the email accepting a new job at a different department...). I'm going to have to look at redeployment options again soon and going back to that place is something I don't even want to contemplate, I have since learned that it has a real repuation for its hostile and toxic culture and I have a few colleagues who also used to work there and "escaped" because they felt the same way as I did.

I do see a lot of "people confuse introversion with social anxiety"-type stuff, and I wonder if that's another issue as it could be making people even more confused about what social anxiety is and how difficult it can make life and work for people. It's a bit like the self-diagnosed mental illness thing which trivialises genuine mental illness to some extent, and people claiming they're introverted "but it's not a disability, there is nothing wrong with me" just seem to add to the stigma- "I'm an introvert, I'm not mental". Introversion is used as a badge of pride where anxiety, depression etc aren't- I'm still very wary of discussing my anxiety at work, I'm terrified of it being handled badly again, and it's not something I'll ever be proud of.

(see the Harry and Meghan baby thread for more on this, all the stuff about Piers Morgan and the other usual suspects trying to deny that mental illness is real and prolong the stigma while others work hard to eradicate it)

[Ferris]

I am very... shy? Introverted? (whatever the word is) when introduced to new situations, though I think that is just my generalized anxiety which I've realized recently I have in spades and I think I always have done. Silly things like going into new shops or meeting neighbours/colleagues/friends of friends etc fills me with a deep existential dread.

...until I know them, then I am very comfortable and do a good impression of someone who is extroverted. I know quite a few of my neighbours and am personable/likeable enough to crack a few jokes and actually quite enjoy brief chats whenever I see them, and I've been very assertive and confident at university for the last few months after taking a few weeks of nausea to get over the feeling of the new place. I wonder why that is? Some deeply-seated brain-wrong I suspect. Still feel my anxiety at all times (natch) but no one can tell. Textbook.

Re: public speaking/presentations, I'm actually pretty good at them. Having a deep sense of superiority (twinned with my self-loathing and crippling lack of self esteem) means I'm able to talk in front of people because I simultaneously don't care about their opinion of what I'm doing, but am also aware what an utterly worthless fraud I am so it wouldn't matter what they thought anyway.

Your shyness score: 60% shy, must do better.

[Icehaven]

I'm extremely shy and find having to make conversation, eye contact and socialising in general, particularly with people I don't know very well or at all, stressful and exhausting until roughly the third drink, then I'm a bit better, so socialising in non-drinking situations is excruciating and I avoid it wherever possible. I can get by better if there's something to talk about and focus on, but just ''shooting the breeze' doesn't come naturally to me at all and it doesn't help either that I find every silence horribly awkward and that it's definitely my fault, even though that's ridiculous and not even logical. I really like people who talk a lot for exactly this reason, they naturally don't leave gaps in the conversation and their tendency to ramble means there's more conversational hooks and tangents to prompt my brain to think of things to say. Trying to talk with someone like me would drive us both mad.

What's most frustrating is that I know for a fact that my difficulty talking/looking at people has occasionally been taken as me being standoffish, cold, bitchy, snooty, 'She thinks she's too good to talk to us', that kind of thing, when that's not the case at all, I just frequently can't think of much to say and imagine people don't particularly want to speak to me anyway so they won't be bothered if I don't*. I can't control how other people choose to interpret my behaviour, so apart from wearing a Tshirt with "Just so you know, I'm not quiet because I think I'm better than you or because I dislike you, I'm just majestically shit at talking to people.", or drinking two glasses of wine every time I leave the house (which I'm open to but probably isn't a great idea) there's not much I can do about it. It is annoying worrying if someone's going to think I'm being off with them though, particularly when what I'm actually doing is castigating myself for not being able to speak.






*I'm sure this is at least partly due to a few formative experiences when I was quite young of being left out of social groups, or being made to feel unwelcome. I remember one particular occasion when I was about 14 and someone at school made a funny quip in class and those of us that heard it laughed, and one girl (who actually was a total bitch) turned round to me and said ''Why are YOU laughing?'', as if I didn't have the right because I wasn't in their social group. Of course in hindsight I should have told her to get to fuck, but I wasn't that kind of 14 year old, and although that one incident isn't particularly significant I've obviously remembered it, and it just added to a general feeling that I'm not supposed to join in a conversation or a group unless expressly invited, which remains to this day. Emotional fucking vampire. Obviously why I like internet forums and btl comment sections etc., no invite necessary, you just wade in.