Author Topic: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing  (Read 4872 times)

chveik

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Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2021, 04:53:34 PM »
Stereolab ended up recording some subtly anti-marxist libertarian songs

i never really pay attention to lyrics, can you give some examples?

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2021, 05:05:26 PM »
i never really pay attention to lyrics, can you give some examples?

Lots of songs on their late 90s/early 00s records ("Free Design", "People Do It All The Time", plenty more on Sound-Dust but I can't remember titles) have themes of not being able to plan for everything, accepting chaos, openness, pluralism and personal choice. They definitely sound like they're renounced something. I remember watching the video for "Free Design" where a gogo girl takes off in a rocket ship at the end and thinking "did Stereolab just do a song about planned economies being bad?"

They're all obscure and vague, but its a notable change from a band who recorded "Jenny Ondioline" "Crest" "Ping Pong" and other explicitly Marxist and sloganistic songs.

I don't want to be glib and say I wasn't surprised when Laetitia Sadier came out for Peterson though, maybe that was a misunderstanding. But my first thought was "Stereolab have been like this for ages, haven't they?"
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 05:16:24 PM by Video Game Fan 2000 »

Catalogue of ills

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Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2021, 05:09:32 PM »
I appreciated the sentiment, but I remembered Kulkarni being a better writer. I thought this piece was quite repetitive and just a bit flat.

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2021, 05:14:23 PM »
Oasis at least wrote some songs that were fun to dance to, or catchy, or even moving (yes, I am going to get sneered at but I can't help my reaction to music, you know?) Mumford & Sons don't even have that going for them. They could only dream of writing something like The Masterplan or Cast No Shadow.
I certainly hope it doesn't come across as sneering - as I have no doubt huge parts of my record collection would not be to yours or many others taste - but I'm not sure how you can dance to Oasis. The early stuff, at least, which is all I really know by them.

I DJ'd at my Student Union from 99-02 and I think I only had them requested once ('Rock and Roll Star') when the likes of Blur, Suede and even Ride (I was very impressed when a girl asked for 'Burning' from their much maligned last album) came up frequently.

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #64 on: June 11, 2021, 05:40:10 PM »
I can't imagine having much of a reaction beyond bemused laughter to anything the Gallaghers do or say. Noel does come across as somewhat more of a cunt than Liam, who is either genuinely a complete fucking idiot or has perfected the persona of such. Both of them are funny in small doses as ridiculous caricatures, a pair of fuckwits who have essentially been reduced to court jesters due to the fact that they now exist in a world in which they're simultaneously behind the times and no longer really relevant, and yet still firmly embedded in popular culture. Liam seems to be at least somewhat aware of this, which renders him occasionally likeable.

As for the eternal "is Oasis shit" discussion, Definitely Maybe is a great album, especially the big deluxe edition that has Cloudburst and all that on it. Columbia and Supersonic are great, and then there's a lot of good songs holding the rest of it together, ie Shakermaker, Cigarettes and Alcohol, what-have-you. I even love Liam's vocals. A lot of the hate for the music feels like a semi-performative reaction to the Gallaghers and the cultural impact of Oasis, rather than to the music itself. I can see why people fucking hate (What's The Story) Morning Glory though.

It does actually end up being one of the few areas were cultural progression in music feels as rapid as it was in the late 20th century in just how irrelevant the Gallaghers have actually become, I don't even get the sense that there on the cusp of any kind of cultural rediscovery.

Honestly I think part of the problem they had was that Whats The Story was an artistic failure but a massive commercial success, trying to merge the sound of Definitely Maybe with something more melodic really not succeeding but doing so well with it they kept with that sound for the rest of their career. The B-sides around that era did show Noel as a decent enough writter of melodies when they werent sunken into coke sludge.

Catalogue Trousers

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Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #65 on: June 11, 2021, 05:56:38 PM »
Good things about Oasis:

Patrick Macnee's cameo in the Don't Look Back In Anger video (albeit tempered with the sadness that he either needed the money that much or was so mildly senile that he didn't fully comprehend what shite he was getting involved in)

Neil Innes catching them out nicking the tune for How Sweet To Be An Idiot for Whatever and taking them to the cleaners for a hefty out-of-court settlement

Bad things about Oasis:

Every-fucking-thing else

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #66 on: June 11, 2021, 06:18:35 PM »
I don't really buy that Oasis were more of a culturally conservative proposition than other bands who were desperately trying to make crossover guitar pop a thing before them. "Noel Rock" definitely was, but that's a different issue.

Stereolab ended up recording some subtly anti-marxist libertarian songs
Luke Haines might have been a lefty early on but he transformed into a full reactionary over a decade.
There is very dodgy stuff on the Denim record ("fake make up boys", "we hate the IRA", "i hate funk and I hate soul")
Gedge might be a nice man with good opinions but his thing was bringing the sexual/gender ambiguity of stuff like the Smiths or lofi back into traditional boy meets girl story songs.
Despite the aesthetic, MSP were/are bothsideism: the band.
Radiohead dedicated a record to Bill Hicks.
New Order were called New Order.
Loads of throwback bands like the La's were uncomfortably nationalistic in their ideas of what good music should be about.
Blur were rich boys sneering at paups. One them sells McDonalds in the Sun now.
Suede immediately dove into 70s revivalism and all its unpleasantness.

I could go on.

The same guy who posted the Oasis rant has a similar one about the Stone Roses. How many other hit albums have a song about May 1968 on them? Oasis' "is it worth the aggreviation/to find yourself a job when nothing is work working for?" still stands apart as a cutting statement of disaffection even if neither of them really meant (or just lucked into such a good line)
Hating the IRA is dodgy now? And why were the Manics ‘both sides’?

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #67 on: June 11, 2021, 06:33:46 PM »
Def don't like what Lawrence sings in that song.

Brundle-Fly

  • "Why don't you do something to help me?"
Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #68 on: June 11, 2021, 06:43:13 PM »
Maybe The Las and their ilk liked making retro sounding rock music. You could accuse them of being musically non progressive but why does this automatically make them nationalistic? What were they supposed to have recorded back then? Bhangra dance records?

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #69 on: June 11, 2021, 07:00:27 PM »
The Las are the pinacle of a certain kind of purism in UK pop culture that looks at some feted moment and tries to make a version of it that is just the British parts. I hear a little bit of Bob Dylan in their music but other than that they sound like a certain kind of 60s pop with all its American and ye-ye influences removed. I think "Timeless Melody" is their best song and if someone asked me to describe it I'd say it was like the Zombies minus any kind of soul/r&b groove but with an indie guitar hook instead.

I don't think its stretching to drawn a line between that and nationalism. I'm not saying they were sitting around going "let's sound as English as possible!" exactly.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 08:01:40 PM by Video Game Fan 2000 »

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #70 on: June 11, 2021, 08:20:49 PM »
Plenty of non-UK influences in The La’s music. Some songs have a clear Brecht/Weill jaunt (Son of a Gun, Freedom Song), others a splash of Reinhardtian call-and-response (Liberty Ship, Looking Glass). Callin’ All’s step-up-and-down the frets is pretty North African in a way. Add in the otherworldly, muezzinish harmonies in the voices or the skidding solo on Timeless Melody and the accusations of parochialism or nationalism seems a bit of a stretch.

Brundle-Fly

  • "Why don't you do something to help me?"
Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #71 on: June 11, 2021, 08:49:11 PM »
The Las are the pinacle of a certain kind of purism in UK pop culture that looks at some feted moment and tries to make a version of it that is just the British parts. I hear a little bit of Bob Dylan in their music but other than that they sound like a certain kind of 60s pop with all its American and ye-ye influences removed. I think "Timeless Melody" is their best song and if someone asked me to describe it I'd say it was like the Zombies minus any kind of soul/r&b groove but with an indie guitar hook instead.

I don't think its stretching to drawn a line between that and nationalism. I'm not saying they were sitting around going "let's sound as English as possible!" exactly.

No, they moe likely said, "Let's make a record that we'd want to hear". I admire your passion but I couldn't put bands under such microscopic scrutiny.  It's only certain music rags at the time and Steve Lamacq who wanked on about The Las. Most of the country was listening 'The Power' by Snap! and not giving a second thought about the retrogressive parochial shortcomings of UK indie bands.

PaulTMA

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Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2021, 08:51:45 PM »
Def don't like what Lawrence sings in that song.

"We hate the IRA" is in the context of the sentiment in Birmingham after the bombing, the entire point of 'Middle Of The Road' is the narrator denouncing all 'classic' music irrespective of race - Spector, Dylan, "licks", "guitar riffs" etc and the "fake makeup boys", well he hated Duran Duran?  Would have to get up pretty early to be offended by any of that

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2021, 09:11:38 PM »
My point wasn't to say any of those bands was particularly bad! It was that conservative sentiments were evenly distributed across all "alternative" music in the early 90s before Oasis and britpop, even bands which started out as overtly lefty. The comparison between alternative pop and stereotypical "lad" bands like Oasis and the Stone Roses is specious if its on that basis. I'm also pretty unconvinced that Oasis were a media phenomenon: it was their relentless touring and release schedule designed to hype their gigs that made them huge, surely. The working class hero stuff didn't kick into overdrive until after What's The Story and outlets that slated that record went back on themselves to praise their authenticity. It's stupid to pretend Oasis were something foisted on unsuspecting and credulous oiks by conniving media (Kulkarni implies this shit a lot) where their popularity was measurable and undeniably a result of down market demand swamping studenty alternatives. By the time tabloids gave a fuck Oasis were millionaires and already acting like the new Beatles.

In my mind this:
Quote
The ladmags, Chris Evans’ grotesque genuflection, that NW1 posh-boy joy about having some ‘characterful’ Northerners to goggle at, all that coked-up reactionary twattery, all conducted in an era in which female artists and black artists were being marginalised by the UK music press and UK pop telly.

describes 1996-2001 far more than 1992-1996 and Oasis' "rise". You could probably make more of a case of it being caused not by anything affirming it but by 1996/1997 being the period where "ladettes" and female sleaziness and trashiness finally made into the pop culture mainstream and the need for lads to re-assert themselves against something they had to make room for. Which seems absolutely the case with things like Chris Evans and obvious attempts to reclaim kitchiness and campness for braying Garys.


Its clear I've done the same thing meself re: The Las, who always sounded like a completely purist venture to me (because I only like half the record, I was able to stereotype them in my head as proto-Noel rock)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 09:44:30 PM by Video Game Fan 2000 »

buzby

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Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2021, 09:19:21 PM »
New Order were called New Order.
Really? Someone still thinks they are secretly Nazis, or even 'conservative with a small c'?
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/new-order-why-europe-made-us-what-we-are-today-15838
They were playing benefit gigs for striking miners, Militant in Liverpool, Mexican earthquake victims and AIDS  charities when most of the Britpop lot were still in naopies.

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #75 on: June 11, 2021, 09:21:29 PM »
I can point out a band had conservative elements or aesthetics without saying they were secret nazis! New Order dabbled with far right aesthetics very early in their career. That's it.

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #76 on: June 11, 2021, 09:24:32 PM »
I can point out a band had conservative elements or aesthetics without saying they were secret nazis! New Order dabbled with far right aesthetics very early in their career. That's it.
You mean calling themselves Joy Division?

I never got the hype about the La's. And yes, you're right, the '92-'96 era was when grunge was a big thing - the lad bollocks didn't get really big until the mid '90s when Euro '96 happened and Chris fucking Evans was everywhere.

buzby

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Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #77 on: June 11, 2021, 09:32:24 PM »
I can point out a band had conservative elements or aesthetics without saying they were secret nazis! New Order dabbled with far right aesthetics very early in their career. That's it.
Name one. The Italian Futurist-inspired sleeve art for Movement and Procession? It was Peter Saville who created those. The band had no idea what it was about. Joy Division may have dabbled in far right imagery very early on (as did a lot of other punk bands at the time, purely as shock tactics) and before you say it, yes Ian made his wife vote for Thatcher, but New Order never actively did. Nothing in their music was remotely conservative during the 1980s, with most of their influences coming from German, Iralian and US dance music.

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2021, 09:36:36 PM »
So I said to Martin Bormann,
I said, "Hey Marty, why don't we throw a little Nazi party?"
So we had an election, well, kinda sorta
And before you knew it, hello New Order!

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2021, 09:39:41 PM »
I remember a backlash against rap being everywhere at the end of the 90s. Early 90s was still full of appropriations of rap and its aesthetics by brands and medium mouths.

That said I didn't really care about rap until Black Elvis came out so maybe I wasn't paying attention.

Name one.

Their name. The sleeves. The album title "Movement". I'm sorry if the combination of band name, title and sleeve design doesn't seem like "dabbling in far right imagery" to you I don't know what to say. I'm not even saying its bad, it is what it says it is (and yes, excellently designed). Even Peel said he felt uncomfortable playing their records because of their name and their imagery early on. It doesn't have to be anything major or any specific intention, just dabbling. They've done the same with pop art, minimalism, etc so its not like I'm saying they're secret nazis or anything.

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #80 on: June 11, 2021, 09:46:14 PM »
Isn't 'Movement' a joke on the last Joy Division album being called 'Still'?

Some of the fan club badges, err..

« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 09:56:44 PM by OnlyRegisteredSoICanRead »

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #81 on: June 11, 2021, 09:49:29 PM »
Sure. But its still an italian futurist design that says NEW ORDER MOVEMENT 1980.

Jesus, I'm not saying anything other than they briefly dabbled in far right imagery. Clearly they didn't have anything deep in mind with any of it because they switched to a completely original design aesthetic within a year.


Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2021, 09:54:03 PM »
twitter image just loaded. I forgot about the badges. I retract the "briefly"!

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #83 on: June 11, 2021, 09:54:42 PM »
Back when Neol Gallagher was promoting his second High Flying Turds album he mentioned he'd been listening to a lot of obscure 60s French pop. I kind of surmised that he did this so he could rip off lots of the obscure 60s French pop songs he was listening to and sound original and fresh to the cloth-eared colour supplement reviewers who would hail him as a genius for creating fresh new musc they'd never heard before, unless they were also listening to obscure 60s French pop.

buzby

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Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2021, 10:19:20 PM »
Even Peel said he felt uncomfortable playing their records because of their name and their imagery early on.
So apprehensive that he got them in to record their first session before their debut single had been released, and when he received a promo copy of it he played both sides in succession on his show.

The origins of the name thing has been done to death. It was from an article in the guardian about the Khmer Rouge (which was one of the rejected names on Rob Gretton's list, along with Black September).

Some of the fan club badges, err..


Those badges have got nothing to do with the band, or even most fans of the band, They were created by Hook's personal fanclub 'The Vikings', who are mostly boorish dickheads like him and have pissed off to follow his tribute act.

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2021, 10:24:46 PM »
There used to be an interview with John Peel on youtube where he talks about his change of heart regarding fascist imagery in bands and singles out New Order's early singles and first album, despite appreciating the music.

There's a link to it on the John Peel wiki but its dead.

The etymology, meaning or real reason for something doesn't really have any bearing on what its political effect or connotation is.

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #86 on: June 11, 2021, 10:30:46 PM »
"We hate the IRA" is in the context of the sentiment in Birmingham after the bombing, the entire point of 'Middle Of The Road' is the narrator denouncing all 'classic' music irrespective of race - Spector, Dylan, "licks", "guitar riffs" etc and the "fake makeup boys", well he hated Duran Duran?  Would have to get up pretty early to be offended by any of that

Exactly. Really bizarre.

If you want to quote dodgy Lawrence lyrics there are much better places to find them than on Denim records.

chveik

  • crazy bit of business
Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #87 on: June 11, 2021, 10:37:09 PM »
The etymology, meaning or real reason for something doesn't really have any bearing on what its political effect or connotation is.

heh quite. these guys really were unlucky regarding their band names.

Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #88 on: June 11, 2021, 10:45:05 PM »
I should've clarified that I meant broad strokes 'culturally conservative' and not card carrying of any particular right wing group.

Which is why I included Gedge. There is clearly nothing wrong with writing albums of hetero love songs, just contextually he mined something which was previous associated with ambiguity ("My Favourite Dress", covering "Falling" and "She's My Best Friend", etc) to do so. An obv point of comparison would be the Huskers doing songs that sounded like angsty boy meets girl/break up songs but weren't.

Its really silly to act like Oasis suddenly brought normies into pop culture again in 1994. I just don't buy it.

Jockice

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Re: Awesome Oasis/Britpop thing
« Reply #89 on: June 11, 2021, 11:24:34 PM »
"We hate the IRA" is in the context of the sentiment in Birmingham after the bombing, the entire point of 'Middle Of The Road' is the narrator denouncing all 'classic' music irrespective of race - Spector, Dylan, "licks", "guitar riffs" etc and the "fake makeup boys", well he hated Duran Duran?  Would have to get up pretty early to be offended by any of that

I'm baffled too. Back In Denim is my favourite album ever and all the times I've listened to it I've never noticed anything offensive about it. Lawrence went to school with Roger Taylor from you know 'and you were nothing then. And when you left the band you were nothing again.; As far as I'm aware all of Duran Duran are straight and I seen them admit that they jumped on the new romantic bandwagon because they knew it would be an easy way to became famous. They even mentioned the words 'new romantic' on their first single just in case you hadn't noticed. So yes, 'fake make-up boys' seems pretty accurate.

As for other dodgy lyrics from Lawrence, I remember reading someone on another forum complaining about a reference to 'leaving the back doors open too wide' (or something along those lines) on a Go-Kart Mozart song as meaning he was against immigration. Again, it's quite a stretch. Describing the Queen Mum as 'great' though...

Anyway, I don't think I've ever been politically influenced by any singer. Apart from maybe Morrissey in the 80s. And look what happened to him.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2021, 12:02:26 AM by Jockice »

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