Insomniaaaaaargggghh thread

[Blue Jam]

my own insomnia sees me mostly falling asleep with no trouble but then waking up in the middle of the night and not being able to get back to sleep a lot of the time. doctor prescribed melatonin at some point but it wasn't really helping because that usually helps with getting you to sleep in the first place which wasn't my issue.

You can get slow-release melatonin and that seems to make a difference for me. Maybe it's psychosomatic but here I've got some of the fast-acting dissolving tablets and the slow-release coated tablets and there really does seem to be a difference, mainly that the fast-dissolve ones definitely seem to knock you out more quickly. Lately I've had a problem repeatedly waking up too and taking a slow-relase tablet the other day sorted me out with a nice long unbroken kip.

I don't know what the law is on importing tablets to your country, or if US-based sellers will ship there, but I buy my melatonin from Amazon.com marketplace sellers and it always gets here no probs. I go for a brand called Natrol, simply because that's the brand I picked up the first (and only) time I went to a US pharmacy (a bloody big one in Chicago O'Hare airport) and it did the job. Previously we just used to pick some up every time we visited the US but obviously we haven't been doing much travelling recently so I decided to chance it with Amazon.com and it was fine.

Also while it's illegal to sell melatonin in the UK and GPs can't prescribe it off-label (it's only prescribed as part of HRT here) it's perfectly legal to buy it in the US and bring it back, or to get it delivered here. Again, check local laws.

Got some of these, but shop around and check yer shipping costs:

https://www.amazon.com/Natrol-Advanced-Sleep-Melatonin-Released/dp/B072SD2PNY/

These are nice, they taste like Swizzels Double Lollies:

https://www.amazon.com/Natrol-Melatonin-Dissolve-Tablets-Citrus/dp/B00O37VH9O/

[jobotic]

Another one who gets to sleep fine (although I always go to bed too late) but wakes up in the middle of the night. Not as bad as some of you though, you have my sympathies.

Really think boozed up sleep is worth half of real sleep.

[Blue Jam]

Really think boozed up sleep is worth half of real sleep.

This too. I always switch from booze to plain water before bedtime and this is partly because I can't handle even the mildest hangover anymore, but I also don't like feeling drunk before going to bed. I also struggle with red wine because it makes me sleepy but also a bit nauseous after more than two glasses. I guess I'm just really lucky that I've never been one of these people who can drink until they black out, instead I just reach a point where the thought of more booze makes me feel sick and I just want a big glass of water instead. Boozed-up sleep is always interrupted sleep for me too, I'll inevitably wake up again after a few hours.

My mother couldn't get to sleep without a drink. She would have a vodka and coke before bed every single night. I don't know how much vodka, enough to counteract the effects of the caffeine I guess. Looking back I should probably have been concerned.

[TrenterPercenter]

Hate insomnia, that despite it being the reason I first joined CaB.

Not really had it bad for a longtime though occasionally when the mind is whirring about shit I need to do.  The big thing is trying to tell yourself to go to sleep. If you are doing this stop doing it; also worrying about not sleeping, same thing.  You just need to distract yourself with something complicated quiet and in the dark.  I usually watch some good awful documentary about naval stuff (I really couldn't care less about this stuff but it is suitably nerdy to send me off to sleep).

Currently watch/listening to this chap https://www.youtube.com/c/Drachinifel that really does talk some incredibly nerdy but sleep promoting stuff for long periods - it's perfect, gone in less than 10 minutes usually.  Brilliant combo of black and white so you can reduce your light exposure and dim whatever you are watching it on; and his rambling on like that old friend telling you about his lawnmower problems that you really want to get away from in the supermarket.  Eyes roll back and poof off to sleepy world.

I seriously do wonder about a lot of this stuff on YouTube and it's relation to helping people get to sleep.

[Sebastian Cobb]

My sleep has been a bit disrupted with summer coming in, and I guess me being cooped up and not doing regular exercise... Although I've never actively kept fit, I guess half hour+ walks to work or 20 minute cycle rides to work have done more than I gave them credit for.

Like Blue Jam I find melatonin can help with this, although I don't think it would be too helpful if it wasn't 'sleep pattern' related. It'd probably be useless if it's your brain keeping you awake/anxiety etc.

The last batch I bought were strawberry flavour and instructed me to take with water and let them melt in my gob(?) but they take ages so I fucked that off and just swallow them like normal pills.

[bgmnts]

Hate insomnia, that despite it being the reason I first joined CaB.

Now I hate insomnia!

[Twit 2]

Got some zops from doc today. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Actually looking forward to fake sleep tonight. Better than HELL.

[Chedney Honks]

Now I hate insomnia!

Great punchline. Haha. Fair play.

[Chollis]

ASMR

[JamesTC]

Come up with fake Only Fools and Horses plots.

[Cold Meat Platter]

Huge wank.

[Cold Meat Platter]

Hate insomnia, that despite it being the reason I first joined CaB.

Not really had it bad for a longtime though occasionally when the mind is whirring about shit I need to do.  The big thing is trying to tell yourself to go to sleep. If you are doing this stop doing it; also worrying about not sleeping, same thing.  You just need to distract yourself with something complicated quiet and in the dark.  I usually watch some good awful documentary about naval stuff (I really couldn't care less about this stuff but it is suitably nerdy to send me off to sleep).

Currently watch/listening to this chap https://www.youtube.com/c/Drachinifel that really does talk some incredibly nerdy but sleep promoting stuff for long periods - it's perfect, gone in less than 10 minutes usually.  Brilliant combo of black and white so you can reduce your light exposure and dim whatever you are watching it on; and his rambling on like that old friend telling you about his lawnmower problems that you really want to get away from in the supermarket.  Eyes roll back and poof off to sleepy world.

I seriously do wonder about a lot of this stuff on YouTube and it's relation to helping people get to sleep.

Ha, fellow Drach fan. Amazing how he can speak extemporaneously for 6 hours about this stuff as well in his 'drydock' Q and As.
I find Finnish youtubers' voices really relaxing.

[Janie Jones]

Got some zops from doc today. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Actually looking forward to fake sleep tonight. Better than HELL.

Ha, when I've had maybe 7 hours sleep in three days and I'm staring at the lightening curtains, every synapse screaming, as another sleepless dawn hoves into view... if someone said, 'Here is a pill, if you take it, you will be asleep in 30 seconds. But you will never wake up...' I would take the fucker.

You maybe need to look at your vaping nicotine intake Twit2? As any occasional smoker knows, nicotine is the enemy of restful sleep.

[imitationleather]

Great punchline. Haha. Fair play.

Agreed. +1

[TrenterPercenter]

Ha, fellow Drach fan. Amazing how he can speak extemporaneously for 6 hours about this stuff as well in his 'drydock' Q and As.
I find Finnish youtubers' voices really relaxing.

It is impressive;  there is naval history then there is the level of obsessive of spending 2 hours comparing the in house training procedures for different navies.

He isn't Finnish though is he?

[TrenterPercenter]

Agreed. +1

https://youtu.be/9lSo1IdjKM0?t=22

[Barry Admin]

Knew exactly what would happen last night! I was exhausted and started dozing off with Jelly on my lap while I sat on the sofa. Fought it for half an hour or so, went to bed, couldn't fucking sleep for hours :-D started to get that weird, jittery feeling again that's like tramadol withdrawal. Interesting to read that Kank actually had that from sleepers - I didn't take one last night, though.

Got asleep in the end tho thankfully! And another night where I slept for more than 6 or 7 hours in a row, which is a really nice bonus. Getting up all night long for a piss is definitely one of the worst things about getting older, isn't it?

[Sebastian Cobb]

I find my biggest problem if I'm tired is I'm my own worst enemy and allow things to snowball. If I have a late night Sunday it seems practically inevitable that despite telling myself I need to have early nights, I'll end up dozily being unproductive in the day then staying up later and later to decompress from that, meaning I don't really catch up until the next weekend.

Absolutely moronic really.

[JaDanketies]

Got some zops from doc today. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Actually looking forward to fake sleep tonight. Better than HELL.

Them Zopiclones are some of the strongest sleepers I've ever tried. But Mirtazapine was even stronger; it ruins your plans for the next three days.

[imitationleather]

For sleep nothing will top a load of Xanax, but I wouldn't recommend it.

[All Surrogate]

I don't suffer from insomnia per se, so take whatever I say on the issue with a pinch of salt.

Any sleeplessness I get is usually associated with my anxiety/depression making an appearance, and is pretty much 'late insomnia': I can get to sleep OK, but wake up early, feel very anxious and can't get back to sleep.

Having done various bit of research on my mental problems over the years, I discovered that one of the most effective methods of treating depression is sleep deprivation. People with otherwise unresponsive deression will often experience a lifting of symptoms if they don't sleep. Unfortunately but obviously, it's not sustainable; and as soon as they've slept, the depression returns. But it did make me question the idea that sleep is unremittingly good for you, and that insomnia is bad. Maybe my insomnia, though awful in lots of ways, was in part an attempt by my body to ease the depression, paradoxical as it seems?

This has led me to be somewhat ambivalent about dreaming/REM sleep. Whilst it is a necessary part of sleep, it's not necessarily restful. Hence the phrase "deep, dreamless sleep". I think excessive and intrusive dreaming is a part of the anxiety and depression I sometimes suffer from.

To get somewhat off topic, I think dreaming provides a connection between CBT and psychoanalytical approaches to mental disease. CBT examines thinking patterns, and in a way, dreaming is the thinking process let loose, and of course dreams are Freud's "royal road to the unconscious".

So, in short, dreaming, and the sleep in which it occurs, is a double-edged sword.

There's also the fact that we don't need that much sleep, and that even broken sleep contains a fair amount of sleep. It's cold comfort to insomniacs, I know, but sleep can be pretty 'poor' and still be sufficient, even if it feels quite the opposite.

It's also important, I think, to distinguish between sleep and rest. Resting is, hopefully, under your control (though even here, it's not complete - can you deliberately rest your heart? would you want to?), and sleep is not. You can't make yourself sleep, but you can make yourself rest. I think "go to sleep" should be replaced by the imperative "rest", and that so long as you rest, even without sleeping, you're doing yourself a lot of good.

Well, to nuance even that a bit more, you can make yourself rest physically, but resting your mind is perhaps impossible. The best you can do, I think, is writing out thoughts and mindfulness. If you keep thinking of the same thing over and over, write it down, acknowledge it as important (to your subconscious at least), and maybe decide to come back to it during the day, when you're not resting. For me, mindfulness is a technique to rest the conscious mind, and hopefully ease the subconscious mind, by bringing it to something uncontroversial, like breathing. If a thought keeps invading that process, write it down to be dealt with at a non-resting time, and then rest again. I'm not very good at mindfulness, but it is helpful.

And when it comes to drugs, I like what JaDanketies said in the "Personal Growth/Development" thread:

You don't get any extra points at the end for living life on hard mode.

It would be 'nice' if insomnia, or any other disease, could be treated 'naturally' without drugs, but there are plenty of diseases (e.g. HIV) where stopping taking drugs would be a very bad idea despite their side-effects, and insomnia may be such a disease, in certain situations. I'm prescribed quetiapine as an adjunct treatment for my anxiety and depression, and it helps with sleep. It's not perfect (I nickname it "the cosh"), but I judge overall it's a benefit, as it reduces dreaming and gives me more restful sleep. So, if someone finds that taking a drug helps ease insomnia, even if it's addictive, or imperfect, then I would hesitate to say they shouldn't take it.

[imitationleather]

https://youtu.be/9lSo1IdjKM0?t=22

Nothing against you. That joke would be funny no matter who it was in response to. 👨‍❤️‍👨

[TrenterPercenter]

Nothing against you. That joke would be funny no matter who it was in response to. 👨‍❤️‍👨

Ay no problems here; I'm just playing along innit.

[Barry Admin]

All Surrogate: interesting post, but tbh I find that nothing tanks my mood more than being unable to get enough sleep. I'm usually pretty positive and enthusiastic by nature, but a few days with no to little sleep will really start to wear on me. I feel like I need a lot of sleep, just cause of the pure height of me.

I think most of my issues with sleep stem from working night shifts as a teenager, on into my early 20's. Just seems to hw e broke my pattern, and I more naturally prefer being awake through the night. Then there's the extremely ADHD brain I wasn't able to get diagnosed when I tried a few years ago. So for me, I always get a little frustrated when people recommend exercise, as I was still unable to sleep even when I was walking 100km+ a week.

[Sebastian Cobb]

Ha the suggestion of exercise for tiredness or depression always seems to nip at me. If I felt like I could summon the will to do exercise then I doubt I'd be moaning to begin with.

[greencalx]

Finding this thread a very interesting read.

Over the years I've had periods of poor sleep / insomnia, lasting sometimes up to months at a time, only for it to magically go away for no obvious reason. It's also manifested itself in a different way at different times. In my late teens I had the odd night where I couldn't go to sleep at all, so would end up going 35+ hours without sleep. Weirdly this had less effect on my ability to function on day 2 than when I only get four or five hours of a night. I don't ever recall this happening two nights in a row, or even as a particularly regular thing: I think by being so knackered at the end of day 2, my body got its rhythm back.

In my mid 20s I developed a pattern of having an early night on a Sunday to get a good night in for the week ahead, and then barely being able to sleep. It took me a surprisingly long time (i.e., this happening more than just once) to figure out that this was connected to my routine of brewing a massive fuck off pot of coffee for breakfast and working my way through it as I read the Sunday paper. So that was fairly easy to sort out.

Then things were pretty good until a period in my early 30s where I developed a habit of waking up at 5am and being unable to get back to sleep. Alas, this has now stuck with me pretty much ever since, although not continuously. The longest bout has been these last two years, I think brought on by a bit of work-related stress, then my mum's illness and death segueing straight into the pandemic. When googling insomnia it always seems to bang on about not getting to sleep, which is almost never a problem (unless there's something immediately worrying, like a leaking roof, which stops me from getting off), and rarely addresses the early-morning pinging awake similar to what many people have described upthread. I often wake up briefly in the night, and things then either go one of two ways: I'm either back to sleep in 5 minutes, or it takes two hours. Always seems to be two hours for some reason. Like hiccup cures, I've found that any particular trick has worked once, but only once. Having a song go round and round in my head is very common when I can't sleep - a very annoying recent occurrence of this was the KLF's "Go To Sleep" - this is how cruel my body/mind is to me sometimes. As the two hours approaches, what happens is I start hearing other people's voices in my head instead of my own, and this is exactly when I start drifting off. It's very annoying when it takes me until about 6.30 to get back off, and my son comes bursting into the room at 7am which is "getting up time" (and to get all the shit done that needs to happen before we leave for school, there isn't really a way around this).

I hope I'm not tempting fate, but things seem to have been easing off the last 2-3 weeks - although I've still been waking up early, most nights I've been back off again closer to 5 minutes than 2 hours, and even when it's been closer to an hour I've felt so much better the next day. I'm a really grumpy shit when I've not been able to sleep, so the last couple of years haven't been great. Fingers crossed...

[Largely Babble]

what Sebastian said

Hear hear. So ignorant. It's akin to the "fat people are lazy" idiocy to me.

[TrenterPercenter]

Having a song go round and round in my head is very common when I can't sleep - a very annoying recent occurrence of this was the KLF's "Go To Sleep" - this is how cruel my body/mind is to me sometimes. As the two hours approaches, what happens is I start hearing other people's voices in my head instead of my own, and this is exactly when I start drifting off. It's very annoying when it takes me until about 6.30 to get back off, and my son comes bursting into the room at 7am which is "getting up time" (and to get all the shit done that needs to happen before we leave for school, there isn't really a way around this).

Sounds like classic anxiety Greencalx (early waking is your cortisol peaking too early and also explains the songs on repeat); suffered with this myself for periods.  Hope you are looking after yourself.

Something you might find interesting;

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sleep-newzzz/202004/the-effects-cortisol-your-sleep

[flotemysost]

I emphatically second/third/fourth or whatever the various comments that using booze to counteract insomnia is not a good idea at all. Led to full blown alcoholism for my dad (well, there was other stuff at play, but yeah it's not a great idea and as others have said, you probably won't actually get a good, restful sleep at all).

My biggest challenge is not getting angry when I can't sleep. I'm trying to recognise the signs and be at peace with it and recognise that getting worked up is only going to make things worse, but it can be hard to stay calm when you know your alarm's going to go off in a couple of hours and you're going to feel like shit all day tomorrow.

These are basically just reiterating various combinations of what's been said already, but things that have helped for me are:

- Minimise screen time before bed. Personally I've got into a habit of scrolling through Instagram as I'm lying in bed (not actually interacting with anyone, just looking at nice pictures) which probably isn't great, but once I put the phone down, that's it. No picking it back up and checking.
I used to switch my phone off at this point, which really helped. Broke that habit when I lived alone in case I had to make an urgent call at night, but having some sort of demarcation (whatever's practical for you) after which point you don't engage with anything external is good.

- As Buelligan says, having a routine is good. In my case, that's making sure I take off my make up, brush my teeth etc. no matter how late it is.

- In colder weather, a hot water bottle can really help, but generally I think it's optimal for your body temperature to be on the cooler side to sleep. It can definitely be hard to achieve this though, especially in flats in the summer, and especially in a facking disgusting heatwave like the current one. I find if I'm really uncomfortably hot, getting up and running my wrists under cold water for a minute or two helps a lot. Also keeping icy drinking water by the bed.

- Don't look at the time, if you can possibly avoid it. Just don't do it. Even if you need to get up for a piss or whatever, try to do so without looking at your phone/alarm clock/the time on the microwave display etc. For me anyway, there's nothing like realising how long I've been flopping around uncomfortably for to trigger the aforementioned anger.

- If you're prone to being kept awake/woken up by light from outside, blackout curtains can help, if practical - IKEA do some gooduns in lots of colours.

- Music-wise, I find a bit of Satie can be quite calming (not even actually listening to it necessarily, just sort of imagining the notes playing in my head can work) but it's such a personal thing so it'll be different for everyone.

Having a song go round and round in my head is very common when I can't sleep

Urgh god, yes. Always only a short fraction, never the whole song, but insistent enough to be completely maddening.

[greencalx]

Thanks Trenter for the cortisol link. There's a lot in that that resonates so I think I understand what's going on better now, which may in itself help me get on top of things.  Like I say I feel like I'm turning a corner but fear this is tempting fate.