Contrapoints

[pigamus]

100% Team Poirot on this, really surprised by the negativity towards Contrapoints in this thread

[Barry Admin]

It's just a bit of mild criticism, in amongst plenty of effusive praise.

Edit: actually, it's a summer thread innit... One of those ones where there's a bit of argy-bargy over nothing because everyone is all hot and humid.

[Buelligan]

Thirty-seven degrees here.  Bugger me, too hot even to lie in a cool bath and pour the milk of Fenrir over myself.

[Mister Six]

Some kind soul has been putting up a load of her old vids:

https://youtube.com/channel/UC7buV8Q_Q6SczbyvK4K6tQQ

Hmm, I don't know if I agree with that. She presumably took them down because she was uncomfortable with her pre-transition self being visible online, so it's not really on to put it back up.

Usually I'm petty hardline about not removing published artistic works from the public domain, but not here. Maybe it's a bias against thinking of YouTube as "proper" media, I dunno. Perhaps she could put something in her will to have them all uploaded for posterity when she pops her bedazzled clogs, like Jerry Lewis.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Iirc that one was completely produced by her and it _really_ showed.

Asides from Cringe her stuff since hasn't been super good and has felt _extremely_ forced. I see the Rowling one is 90 minutes and I cannot recall a single thing of note.
I think it's a consequence of being so consumed by the internet in general. If you're on twitter to the insane levels that someone like Shaun is (and he's far more a retweet guy than a youtuber at this stage), it's probably quite hard to focus on knocking out shorter videos with less of a gap between them but the amount of time the project is in your head results in it being a bit of a bloated mess.

I think this true across the board? There's a vicious circle between having to address more and more intense subject matter - race, institutional bigotry, societal breakdown, etc. and the fact that producing a video that will get more than ten million views means that a research team will necessarily be involved - it means you're less likely to get someone's opinions or personal angle, and more like to get a blast of buzzfeed or vox style talking points delivered with the 'aesthetic' or 'style' in line with a certain brand. The more amped up the subject matter, the more anodyne the content will have to be to prevent a cancellin' and the more eyes on the script before its read.

One thing I've noticed more and more in these liberal Youtube videos (you can't really call them lefty anymore) is the technique of getting all their friends in to read the citations. This is innocent enough because I think it started as a joke from gaming channels where a friend of the uploader would cameo as a voice at an inappropriate time, something younger audiences love. But its fallen into a brand synergy thing. The problem is it that it creates the illusion of consensus (everyone in the in group agrees) without anyone specifically voicing their agreement. Its exactly the same thing that Fox and Sky - cut to the studio where everyone makes jokey remarks about a report, and while they're not really saying that they agree or explicitly endorsing an opinion, but their presence is there to bolster the idea that there is a commonsense/consensus view that everyone in the Good Guy group agrees with. Bomberguy's last video on vaccines was full of this. Its a dangerous thing to start doing if you're the "rational" or "progressive" side of the argument, or if you're the "debunker" of myths and fake news.

[Mister Six]

Thirty-seven degrees here.  Bugger me, too hot even to lie in a cool bath and pour the milk of Fenrir over myself.

You know when she's pouring milk on herself in the bath in, I think, "JK Rowling" - do people actually do that? Wouldn't it reek?

This is an open question to the forum, not to you specifically.

[Buelligan]

I don't know, I don't have a bath but if I did I'd use almond or oat (unsweetened).

Hmm, I don't know if I agree with that. She presumably took them down because she was uncomfortable with her pre-transition self being visible online, so it's not really on to put it back up.

Usually I'm petty hardline about not removing published artistic works from the public domain, but not here. Maybe it's a bias against thinking of YouTube as "proper" media, I dunno. Perhaps she could put something in her will to have them all uploaded for posterity when she pops her bedazzled clogs, like Jerry Lewis.

I agree.  And I like this idea, although it does make me hope I outlive her.

[TrenterPercenter]

Contrapoints is brilliant.  Surely that is something we can all agree on?

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

100% Team Poirot on this, really surprised by the negativity towards Contrapoints in this thread

I'm surprised that me saying "I'm so sorry you hate style and fun" in response to more than one person saying "oh her videos are two hours of over-produced nothing that says absolutely nothing" got a response of "YOU CAN'T TAKE CRITICISM AND ALSO A BACKHANDED REMARK ABOUT OVERLY-EMOTIONAL SOMETHING OR OTHER". I mean seriously, someone thought I was saying that in a mean way? I'm not even arguing with people who don't like her, except to point out that she's only made three hour-plus long videos. Yes, S?S!, you are being overly-emotional and should probably go outside.

Contrapoints is brilliant.  Surely that is something we can all agree on?

Well Trenter, I will certainly agree with you on that.

[MoreauVasz]

I think one of the issues with her more recent work is that her context has changed...

She started off as an atheism vlogger,  squabbling with a load of right wing atheists who would later evolve out of the collapsing new atheism/rationality scene and into the anti-Muslim,  anti-feminist spaces that would eventually go on the form the alt-right.

So she went to squabbling with right-wing atheists to squabbling with right-wing vloggers at a time when YouTube, the culture wars, and the alt-right were all moving into the mainstream. She was very much in the right place at the right time but you can see that her roots define her approach to things. Like the fact that she clearly has some sympathy for blokes who have been sucked into the alt-right and she believes that these people can still be reasoned with and coaxed back into a more reasonable point of view. She's charitable and understanding in a way that lots of people are not.

The problem now is that the alt-right are in retreat. A lot of what they stood for and argued about has just become 'the right' and it's hard to pick a fight with half the political establishment. Conversely, CP is also big enough to be lacking in peers. She can't just squabble with neckbeards anymore because she has so many followers and so much visibility that this would probably feel too much like bullying.

So without a context and people to squabble with,  she is struggling for inspiration. Her videos are going from strength to strength on a visual level but they also lack focus as she's basically delivering sermons rather than arguing with people via the Internet. That is a big, transition to make and doing it in the face of cancellation  and trying to come off the booze must be incredibly difficult.

[Buelligan]

I don't think I really agree.  CP's interest and beauty, for me, had nothing at all to do with squabbling.  I love her because she's intelligent and funny and rude.  She pricks bubbles and egos with wit and erudition and she shaves the shorn lamb in the gentlest, dryest, most amusing way.  She selects and connects ideas and makes new and interesting patterns. It makes me happy that there are people who think like her in the world.  I find her delightful.

[Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse]

I love her empathy. I love that she cares enough to dig into the "why" of bigotry and to admit to having mean/unkind thoughts about others, too. And I hate that she gets "cancelled" on fucking Twitter for doing so.

[MoreauVasz]

Her cancellation was complete and utter bollocks.

It was one of those moments in which the mask slipped and the atavistic nihilism of online discourse was clearly visible.

[Barry Admin]

I love her empathy. I love that she cares enough to dig into the "why" of bigotry and to admit to having mean/unkind thoughts about others, too. And I hate that she gets "cancelled" on fucking Twitter for doing so.

Strongly agree on all points.

Enjoyed your analysis, Moreau, interesting read.

[Mister Six]

Her cancellation was complete and utter bollocks.

It was one of those moments in which the mask slipped and the atavistic nihilism of online discourse was clearly visible.

What was she cancelled for?

[Video Game Fan 2000]

What was she cancelled for?

Got Buck Angel to read a quote in one of her videos. So transmedicalism.

[Mister Six]

That's honestly it? Or did it spiral into some mad Twitter shit?

[canadagoose]

I honestly think she's redeemed herself since her fuck-up, but if I said that on Twitter I'd get lambasted for being dismissive of NB people. I'm generally not, but I think she's done good since.

[canadagoose]

That's honestly it? Or did it spiral into some mad Twitter shit?

It wasn't just one incident, it was a few. Not that I'm defending the pile-on, but I think I discussed it in another post. I'll try to find it.

Edit: Yeah, see here.

Double Edit: It doesn't help that some people can't seem to recognise the difference between characters she plays and her actual opinions. Usually people obsessed with children's cartoons. I just ignore them. I actually came across someone on Twitter who didn't realise Alan Partridge was a parody. I mean, fuck's sake, just do some basic research ffs.

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

i can't watch her because i get jealous

yes i know this is stupid

[Barry Admin]

I honestly think she's redeemed herself since her fuck-up, but if I said that on Twitter I'd get lambasted for being dismissive of NB people. I'm generally not, but I think she's done good since.

The odd thing about all this is I started watching the Blaire White debate again, and about the first half hour of it is just Contra advocating for non-binary people.

I find a lot of the pronouns and "CW:" stuff these days pretty cringe, tbh. Well-meaning cringe. I think her arguments in that post you linked make a lot of sense, and get at this heightened sense of awkward self-awareness that can often be counter-productive in terms of helping people fit in better and feel more at ease with themselves.

[Mister Six]

It wasn't just one incident, it was a few. Not that I'm defending the pile-on, but I think I discussed it in another post. I'll try to find it.

Edit: Yeah, see here.

Double Edit: It doesn't help that some people can't seem to recognise the difference between characters she plays and her actual opinions. Usually people obsessed with children's cartoons. I just ignore them. I actually came across someone on Twitter who didn't realise Alan Partridge was a parody. I mean, fuck's sake, just do some basic research ffs.

Cheers, I can see why this might seem to add up to a perceived anti-nonbinary sentiment, but it seems very much like a stretch to me, and while I'm broadly against organized cancellation as a concept, I'm especially troubled when it's based on divining problematic sentiment from scattered entrails of text rather than something rather more substantial.

[bgmnts]

i can't watch her because i get jealous

yes i know this is stupid

Jealous of what?

[peanutbutter]

Both her and Ellis's "cancellations" weren't really that substantial though, were they? A bunch of people who already disliked them just ran with it and most everyone else had a quick look into it and realised it was a load of wank.

From what I recall by the time she had her response video out most people had already moved on. There's always gonna be some psycho contingent on twitter complaining, like.



RE: the aesthetics of the videos, I think a few years ago it was a pretty good differentiator that suited her presentation well but I do wonder at this stage is it kinda just endlessly doubling down on itself in a way that makes the content far more alienating to new viewers than it would've been with the production values and aesthetics of 3/4 years ago.

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

Jealous of what?

shamefully jealous of how 'successful'[nb]very problematic turn of phrase, i know[/nb] her transition has been and how she's been able to afford surgery

i think her content is genuinely fab tho, don't get me wrong. i shouldn't be such a neurotic twit

[pigamus]

She wasn't beaten very hard with the ugly stick it has to be said

[MoreauVasz]

Both her and Ellis's "cancellations" weren't really that substantial though, were they? A bunch of people who already disliked them just ran with it and most everyone else had a quick look into it and realised it was a load of wank..

I don't doubt that their cancellations were unpleasant but I do wonder whether 'I've been cancelled, better pay loads of attention to me and give me shit loads of money! ' might not have jumped the political aisle as the upshot of both cancellations seems to be that they left twitter and everyone kinda wants to quit twitter.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

Lindsey Ellis anti-fandom is one of the weirdest and most fucked up things online. A coalition of actual far right and mra lunatics, YA/theatre twitter and SJW froth that spend hours daily detailing every aspect of a persons life to try and out her as a wrong 'un. Its absurd and completely arbitrary.

I won't support left wing politicians because thats problematic from a feminist perspective...but colluding with nazis to the end of greviance archaelogy of the person who makes videos about the transformers movies is valid coalition building

[Mr Trumpet]

Contrapoints is great. I think the first video I watched had an Age of Empires/gender reassignment joke in it that won me over completely. She's had a rough lockdown - too many drugs and a tendency to take social media criticism to heart.

[pigamus]

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/jun/17/contrapoints-natalie-wynn-youtube-interview