The Sopranos prequel - The Many Saints Of Newark

[QDRPHNC]

I can't think of one that's bettered it. Although Twin Peaks S3 would come very close.

[colacentral]

why are you calling it a text?

Meaning the totality of it, the script, the imagery, the sound, the performances; and as a general point about all narrative media, not just film and TV.

"Media text" is a commonly used term that isn't restricted to just written words.

Why do you ask?

[Custard]

One way of looking at it I guess. I'm enjoying these discussions and all, but for me the ending is brilliant for one main reason, and that is that not seeing the murder is so much more effective than seeing the murder. It couldn't have been more perfect.

Couldn't agree more. It stays firmly lodged in the mind, and is far more special and interesting than seeing Tony face down in a plate of onion rings

I read once, and this could be reading way too much into things, that the onion ring was chosen as it's a loop. Showing 1. That the show is at an end and simply now goes back to the start, and/or 2. That although Tony is dead, someone else will take over and the whole horrible loop/story continues, forever

[An tSaoi]

I reckon the last shot was him doing a big silent fart.

[QDRPHNC]

In episode 2 of series 6, Vito rips an absolute stinger directly into the Soprano couch. Foreshadowing?

[An tSaoi]

[Custard]

I know you're talking about farting, but that there scene features the sound of a bell. A bell is then heard when Meadow finally enters Holsten's

Ahhhhhhhh

[An tSaoi]

Was there a bell when that New York guy got whacked at the restaurant with Sil?

[bgmnts]

I honestly didn't, though. By Season 6, especially the episode where he pisses off Hesh, I was thoroughly sick of the cunt. Gandolfini did an amazing job at portraying him though, since I was still interested in seeing where his story went. He wasn't an uninteresting bastardman to watch.

Probably the only act of his where I didn't think "Tony you sack of shit" in S6 was

Spoiler alert

him killing Chris -- I didn't cheer it on, but was also left incredibly fucked and conflicted by it. Chris was always dangerous both to himself and others, but fuuuuhck. Killing him wasn't the solution, and how he died was awful.

[close]

Yeah sorry I will say there is absolutely nothing laudable about any of the cunts in the show. They're horrible.

[QDRPHNC]

I'm really enjoying this discussion and I'm not trying to be a bore, so this is the last time I'll try to make a case for Tony being dead, it can be made very simply:

The white house. It appears in dreams as a haunted place with old spirits. Similar to the house where Tony S. murders Tony B. It is the house we know literally means death for Kevin Finnerty. And it is under a painting of a big white house that Tony sits in the final scene.

Eugene in his Members Only jacket, in the episode called Members Only. He kills himself at the end of this episode. Next episode, Join the Club, is where Kevin almost enters the white house, but does not. He almost joined the same club Eugene did, but came back instead. Also worth noting that in the Members Only episode, Eugene (while wearing the jacket) kills a guy (with the initials T.S.) who is sitting at a table in a restaurant. Could be a massive coincidence, but...

The guy in the Members Only jacket in the final scene. Why does he have a role here? He is clearly agitated, shifty, keeping an eye on Tony - and Tony doesn't notice him, but with his blocking, it's very clear that the audience is intended to. He very conspicuously goes to the bathroom to Tony's right. The last shot we see of Tony that isn't from the POV of someone at his table, would be a person looking at him from the bathroom door to his right.

If this were any other scene, there would be no question about the outcome, based on these elements alone, and there are many, many other things which point to this being the case (some more tenuous than others, admittedly). In the same way that almost nobody questions whether Adriana died, even though we didn't see that either.

So I guess, if the point is for Tony to continue living this existence, why bother with any of this? With the blocking of the shifty guy, the jacket, the house? Just have Tony sit with the family and cut to black. Done.

It seems to me that Chase absolutely intended it to be read as Tony's murder, and chose the black screen because he knew it would be so much more powerful than anything he could actually show. And to cut down on the ambiguity (the cut to black itself being the only ambiguous part of the scene), used everything else he could to lead us to that conclusion.

Sorry, I was going to burst if I didn't get that out. I'll stop now.

[An tSaoi]

Yeah, nothing else fits. He's not panicking at all. His previous panic attacks always have a moment where he wobbles a bit before losing consciousness. You've got the callback to Bobby on the boat, the multiple POV shots, the Godfather reference (gun hidden in the jacks?), everything. He got whacked.

[colacentral]

I understand the concept of saying "But he could have died later," but the scene does two things: put you in the eyes of Tony and gives you the experience of suddenly dying. To what end would you want to think that he might have died later other than as some facile snub of narrative convention?

The "What happened?" and the "why?" are two separate considerations. The "what happened?" is that he died, the "why?" or "but what does it all mean?" is when you consider that it could have been then or a week later or whenever and that it would have happened eventually and it will happen to everyone eventually.

[An tSaoi]

Can we compromise and say he died and let rip a huge fart at the same time?

[chveik]

go on then

[An tSaoi]

You first.

[bgmnts]

The reason the screen went black is it represents his perspective as someone mucking around threw a slice of gabagool at him and it landed on his face.

[Wet Blanket]

I like the reading that it's us, the viewers, who get whacked.

[An tSaoi]

... and Tony

[H-O-W-L]

Sort of tangential to your point about Chris - I may just be projecting this, but I feel like the true power of the show is the way that Chase is able to confront uncomfortable or potentially controversial feelings we "normal" non-Mafia people have in our own lives through the shitty vessel of Tony. I've always kind of thought that there's something very personal about that episode - Not that Chase has murdered someone, but that it grapples with the idea of performative grief, and Tony just being like, "Nope, sorry, I'm glad he's dead." The earlier episode with Livia's funeral is basically about the same thing.

I agree wholly and it's part of why I've no need to see any more new Sopranos content; I feel the feelings, concepts, and emotions the series wanted to explore were wholly and thoroughly explored throughout its runtime. It was all pretty perfectly wrapped up with a bow, to me, and as much as I enjoyed the journey (and I enjoyed the discomfort) I've no need to see it can-kicked. It's the opposite of Deadwood or Twin Peaks for me -- I needed the closure of the movie after completing S3 of Deadwood, and with Twin Peaks (which I watched long before the S3 announcement) the anti-closure S3 provided was a masterclass of closure within itself. Could rant about that for several paragraphs but I shan't.

To quote Casino: "And why mess up a good thing? And that's that."

[Custard]

Does make you wonder what happened next, after Tone got his ears blown off, doesn't it?

Does Silvio survive and take over? Unlikely, as he had already shown that he wasn't quite boss material

Paulie? Maybe, but again, he's not really a leader

Patsy is probably the most obvious bet, and there were clear nods towards him hating Tony still, even up to the final episode. I don't think he'd last as boss as long as Tony though, didn't seem half as bright

Maybe the cat took over

[H-O-W-L]

nah mate its the sopranos not the gaultieris

[An tSaoi]

Does Silvio survive and take over? Unlikely, as he had already shown that he wasn't quite boss material

I read somewhere that Steve van Z had a clause in his contract that he wouldn't be killed off (just as Tony Sirico took the part of the condition that he wasn't a rat). I can't find a source for it right now, but supposedly that's why they had to put him in a coma instead. Basically, they intended him to be killed. He's not waking up.

Patsy is probably the most obvious bet, and there were clear nods towards him hating Tony still, even up to the final episode. I don't think he'd last as boss as long as Tony though, didn't seem half as bright

With the administration gone, the Soprano family really is a glorified crew after all. I'd say it would cease to be an independent family, and end up being subsumed into the Lupertazzis, or at least being the weak junior partner, sort of like the Lib Dems in the Coalition.

[Chollis]

wasn't it still known as the DiMeo crime family throughout the series? genuinely can't remember.

[Fishfinger]

Saw this today and I'm with those who found it mediocre, despite some standout performances. The

Spoiler alert

framing device

[close]

[nb]This is probably a dumb use of the spoiler tag. What I mean is, if you have any intention of watching the TV show, don't watch this film, you'll be spoiled in the first minute and the series is an utterly superior experience.[/nb] really is needless and ruins a powerful moment in the TV show for anyone who might see this then give the the show a punt for the first time. I guess they know their demographic, but I think it's a shame.

[Fishfinger]

Edit bug never heard it comin'.

[badaids]

I saw this last night. My expectation was low and so didn't find it too bad but it was very slow and the focus of the film was quite fractured. It really did feel like there are hours and hours of important bits on the cutting room floor, and Dickie was just a nasty piece of work so by the end you don't really care what happens to him, and the ending was just cheap. Agree with others that the Chris voiceover is both pointless and detracts from the time and place of the film.  Lots of good performances but some bad ones too - Junior failed to capture the vocal mannerisms and poise, and Paulie was no good either. But the most annoying thing was the horrible teal colour grading that saturates the whole thing. Disappointing but nowhere near as bad as I feared.

[McChesney Duntz]

One detail in the last scene of the series no one seems to notice: the b-side of the Journey song in the jukebox. What song is that?

"Any Way You Want It.[nb](and I checked - that song is not the flip of "DSB" on any version of that single. And the font on the jukebox card is different than all the others, implying it was made specifically for that scene. So there's no way it wasn't deliberate.)[/nb]"

So, all of you are right and none of you are right. Mic drop. Bada boom. Your sister's c

[jake thunder]

Everyone noticed that u berk

[McChesney Duntz]

Sez you, greenhorn.

[McChesney Duntz]

Actually, now that I think of it, Chase's choice of "Any Way You Want It" is clearly meant to be a reference to the other American masterpiece that song appeared in, Caddyshack, and more specifically its ending, which is as iconic as the one in question here. So, therefore, immediately after the cut to black, everyone got laid. QED.