Afghanistan

[Fambo Number Mive]

With the US planning to remove troops by 11th September, Johnson has told the House of Commons that all British troops assigned to Nato's mission in Afghanistan are returning home and most have already left.

Labour feel that more can be done:

Labour's deputy leader Angela Rayner said the Taliban were "making gains on the ground" and "serious questions remain about the future stability of Afghanistan".

"A security threat remains to the wider world including to the UK, and nobody wants to see British troops permanently stationed in Afghanistan, but we simply cannot wash our hands or walk away," she said.

There had been "moments of huge difficulty" in the last 20 years, Ms Rayner said, but Afghanistan's current situation "is more concerning than at any other point in many years".

"It's hard to see a future without bloodier conflict and wider Taliban control," she said...

I just don't see what else can be done though. We can't keep troops in Afghanistan for ever and though I doubt many civilians in Afghanistan support the Taliban, how many want to keep US and UK troops stationed there. I don't know what the answer is. I still think the war in Afghanistan was a mistake. I know living under the Taliban must be pretty dreadful.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

You have to conclude that the troop presence has accomplished very little over an extremely long period at almost eye watering cost and so maintaining that would be foolish, regardless of the aftermath. Nothing could be more depressing than a 20 year war in order to find 1 man and topple one regime only to be leaving with the same regime in charge and a series of new trendier Islamic extremist groups that have left al qaida in the rearview mirrors.

A total disaster for which Tony Blair and those involved should be paying for with life in prison.

[Retinend]

Hopefully Afghanistan won't now collapse into sectarian violence in the vacuum left by NATO's authority, as happened when our troops abandoned Iraq to its gory fate. Hopefully everyone in the muslim world is tired of sectarianism and where it leads, but I'm not optimistic - given how quickly and unexpectedly the ISIS threat developed.

[bgmnts]

Fair play the west and Russia have fucked these poor cunts over big time. They fuck over most nations but the poor Afghanis have been dicked proper.

[Fambo Number Mive]

Exactly, without the Russian invasion of Afghanistan the Americans wouldn't have funded the Mujahideen. Although funding the Mujahideen was a mistake I'm not sure that just leaving the Russians to it in Afghanistan would have been morally justified.

[PlanktonSideburns]

Maybe they should spend just one more year seeing if a bunch of insecure bullies with machine guns can bring peace to an area of which they have no understanding or compassion, then knock it on the head. No one could say they didn't have a bloody go on it

[chveik]

.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Hopefully Afghanistan won't now collapse into sectarian violence in the vacuum left by NATO's authority, as happened when our troops abandoned Iraq to its gory fate. Hopefully everyone in the muslim world is tired of sectarianism and where it leads, but I'm not optimistic - given how quickly and unexpectedly the ISIS threat developed.

'Our troops' didn't abandon Iraq. We invaded Iraq and brought about those conditions during our involvement and presence, not by leaving.

History shows that nations without a succession of peaceful transitions (including the external attempts from the US, Nato, Russia, whoever) will have no basis on which to start a democracy, both because of the extremism external intervention inevitably produces but the implicit understanding that if they choose badly, the West will come back to destroy their basic infrastructure again because they haven't chosen properly.

[Retinend]

That was badly worded. I meant that the countries that invaded Iraq abandoned it to its fate in leaving. I don't agree with the reasons for being there in the first place.

[Alberon]

I don't think that Afghanistan will collapse like Iraq has, largely as the Taliban is going to end up running most or all of it again.

A twenty year long war launched to catch a guy who wasn't even in the fucking country.

[Sebastian Cobb]

You have to conclude that the troop presence has accomplished very little over an extremely long period.

Nah, they did loads of fighting and murdering in local civil wars by blindly believing all the bullshit local 'allied groups' were telling them.

[Retinend]

It's been in the news a lot recently. Everything has gone to complete shit, very fast. Really scary stuff. Women in prominent roles (judges, journalists) being assassinated in front of their children for the crime of being women rising above their station. Those who are known to have provided services to the Americans are now scrambling to get visas to flee their country before the inevitable Taliban takeover. The government forces have military might, but no strong allegiance from the people in the South (bordering Pakistan) and South-West, or anywhere outside of the cities, really.

We can blame this all on America, but the fact is that the Taliban are sure to win unless America continues to supply the Afghani government with munitions. It's harsh to apathetically say it's merely "lose-lose" for the people, - especially the young people, and young women in particular -when they are facing the return of a brutal theocratic dictatorship.

[Sebastian Cobb]

The Soviet Union fell not long after it withdrew, and it's called 'The Graveyard of Empires', so you know 🤞

[robhug]

so the yanks took twice as long as the ruskies to work out there's absolutely fuck all chance of success in afghanistan

[idunnosomename]

Chief political commentator for Times Radio:

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1426102142142754821

Chocks away boys!

[Retinend]

I'm completely clueless on this: is there any historical precedent for the present-day geography of Pakistan and Afghanistan belonging to the same state/empire? Just a tangential thought, beside the question of whether the Taliban might have a long game plan to unite across existent borders, as ISIS had briefly united parts of Syria and Iraq.

(Googling a bit, I incidentally found this intriguing website resource, which lets you compare any two countries like for like: https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/compare/pakistan.afghanistan (e.g. go to the section "Terrorist groups - home based"))

[Butchers Blind]

never get involved in a land war in Asia

[bgmnts]

Afghanistan historically is hardy as fuck and I'm sure it will persevere despite the complete dicking it's receieved by us and Russia.

I mean this was always going to happen wasnt it? Fucking grim.

But no more negativity please.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I am starting to wonder if the pullout is deliberately bad with each embarrassment of Taliban advances amplified in the media so we all get hyped up for a 'cutting the grass' type bombing campaign and reinvasion.

I was thinking earlier about this strategy on the campaign mode of Total War where if a province gets so mutinous it is better (cynically) to abandon the province, rearm, comeback and reconquer and repeat.

However here the only stake is the arms industry getting more work. Afghanistan is unconquerable and the West would have to install an eyewateringly authoritarian and madly well armed police state, while levelling thousands of hills and caves to even have a chance. Afghanistan would have to be effectively put to the sword. There is no money any state can invest for it to be worthwhile. It is a failed state and the brigands running the ruins will only get more extreme the more arms flood in and the more the West prove over and over again that they are the baddies.

On the plus side it has made many people who originally supported the invasion finally wake up to the catastrophic error and waste.

[Fambo Number Mive]

I really hope we don't invade Afghanistan again. Probably the best way for people like Newton Dunn to help the people of Afghanistan would be to campaign for Britain to treat refugees and asylum seekers better. I imagine that quite a few of the desperate people on small unseaworthy boats who Farage and his ilk hate so much are fleeing Afghanistan.

[chveik]

The Soviet Union fell not long after it withdrew, and it's called 'The Graveyard of Empires', so you know 🤞

here's hoping

[Fambo Number Mive]

According to the BBC food shortages are an issue. Why doesn't the UK help out with food distribution rather than sabre rattling.

At least one Labour councillor agreed with Newton-Dunn's "let's go back in" tweet.

[Kankurette]

If Mumsnet is anything to go by, radfems are angry about this because of the consequences for women and girls.

I wish I knew the answer. Afghanistan is screwed whatever happens.

[idunnosomename]

Global military imperialism IS feminism. 👏👏👏👏👏👏

[Retinend]

If Mumsnet is anything to go by, radfems are angry about this because of the consequences for women and girls.

That's not the preserve of Mumsnet.

I'm not saying "go back in", either, but the way you put that was odd.

[chveik]

Global military imperialism IS feminism. 👏👏👏👏👏👏

<some gal gadot gif>

[Pijlstaart]

I think what the afghans forgot to do in all of this is apologise. I'm waiting. Why are mountain people always so handsome, that's what I don't understand, handsome and stoic, "what is that little man doing in that culvert?" they must say of me if they say anything at all, "We do not wish to live like him". Takes one to know one, just because the pong of your shat-in frillies doesn't carry in the thin air up there doesn't mean you're better than me. I have come to realise that even in the bushmeat world I am not in demand, having to crawl out of the miscellanea bucket as the market packs up has humiliated me, and the knowledge those same indignities will never befall the high-cheekboned sky-lords of the taliban fills me with impotent rage. An apology would help, gift token, maybe a charity bake sale, because we can't just leave things like this.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

If Mumsnet is anything to go by, radfems are angry about this because of the consequences for women and girls.

I wish I knew the answer. Afghanistan is screwed whatever happens.

Shows the perils of viewing every single issue through the same lens, I suppose.

Sounds glib but no-one here is asking what the disruption will do for the Afghani stand up circuit.

Alas, you are right about Afghanistan, where leaving it alone is unlikely to produce worse results in the long term, either for women or Aghanis in general. Additionally there are countries where women are treated as badly or worse but no clamour to invade them to save the women. Bomb Saudi? 💣 Nope didn't think so.

[chveik]

they haven't stuck around out of the goodness of their hearts, maybe they like to pretend they didn't lose another war

[Kankurette]

That's not the preserve of Mumsnet.

I'm not saying "go back in", either, but the way you put that was odd.

Would it help if I linked to the thread?

The argument is that if the US et al withdraw, it's going to be a godforsaken fascistic hell, especially for women and girls. Female judges and journalists are being shot dead in front of their families. Girls are pulled out of education once they reach 12. BUT has occupation really made it that much better?

Twenty years to find one man. Who wasn't even there.