Author Topic: Afghanistan  (Read 25179 times)

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #600 on: September 08, 2021, 04:54:20 PM »
Given Bitter Lake is largely unnarrated and Drizzle hasn't given an example of what they mean, there isn't much to go on.


Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #601 on: September 08, 2021, 06:55:17 PM »
Given Bitter Lake is largely unnarrated and Drizzle hasn't given an example of what they mean, there isn't much to go on.

At one point he described the US going into Afganistan as a nation building exersise.  Coinsidently, Earlier last week I watched David Petraeus being interviewd on Channel 4 news saying the opposite, in that it was never about nation building when the coaltion first went in. I think alot of the neo cons around Bush just wanted to "kick some ass" after 9/11. 

You could argue it either way of course, but the point im attempting to make is that history is often more nuanced then the kind of binary logic Curtis presents us with, there is no room for an alternative view point in his world. 

Another thing that gets on my tits is his tendancy to generalise and lump demograhics together when he talks about “those in power” “politicians” and “bankers" without any qualiifcation or exlplanation about who these bogeymen are.

Buelligan

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #602 on: September 08, 2021, 08:15:41 PM »
Is that the same David Petraeus who is Senior Vice President of the Royal United Services Institute?  You know, the place where The War Criminal, Blair, gave a big speech about how fine it all is two days ago?


This is a bogeyman

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_United_Services_Institute

And take a fucking look at the man's résumé whilst you're at it, fuck me, it's another bogeyman!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Petraeus

Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #603 on: September 08, 2021, 10:27:23 PM »
Is that the same David Petraeus who is Senior Vice President of the Royal United Services Institute? 
Probably, unless there are two David Petraeuses?

sardines

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #604 on: September 08, 2021, 10:41:59 PM »
Yeah that’s a decent analogy.  It just winds me up how he presents everything, no matter how tenuously connected, as a fact.

Isn't he doing exactly the opposite of this?
A lot of his programs start literally with him stating 'I'm going to tell you a story...' .
He has repeatedly talked about wanting to show people that what popular news presents is often a single narrative and that could easily be formed into many other narratives.
I'd hope/think he would consider anyone who took his programs as gospel as at least slightly missing the point.

Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #605 on: September 08, 2021, 11:53:53 PM »
So, torture doesn't work? Unlucky for David Miliband and Lee Hurst!

Full-on torture never works. People are inclined to admit to anything and everything to get it to stop. But there may always be some gold dust hidden in the outpourings, so interrogators have something to do sorting through it all.
Worst case scenario is the subject dies before they really get going.

AllisonSays

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #606 on: September 09, 2021, 09:08:53 AM »

Another thing that gets on my tits is his tendancy to generalise and lump demograhics together when he talks about “those in power” “politicians” and “bankers" without any qualiifcation or exlplanation about who these bogeymen are.

It's interesting that you say that, because I watched Bitter Lake earlier in the week and had (essentially) the opposite problem with it; he presents financialisation as 'the politicians' handing over power to the 'banks'. I share your sense that these are slightly imprecise blocs but I think that's fair enough for the purposes of narrative polemic. What I found more annoying was the imprecision in how the dynamic was presented - financialisation wasn't a handover of power from politicians to finance, whatever that would even mean in practice, but just a reorganisation of how power was expressed. When you have people like Rees Mogg running Somerset Capital Management and sitting in the HoC it seems to be burying the lede to think of power as passing from one discrete group to the other, in my opinion; finance and politics have never been discrete operations.

There's some great footage, though, and I love the way he sort of lingers on moments immediately after the camera's been rolling - the shots of people turning off the BBC idents or of reporters right after they've done a piece to camera. Something very compelling about seeing behind the production of the spectacle like that. Also, the video of the art historian showing the Afghani women the Duchamp urinal is wonderfully silly and really seemed to capture something about the emptiness of the rhetoric of 'Western values' without him having to be too didactic about it.

Buelligan

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #607 on: September 09, 2021, 10:53:24 AM »
Probably, unless there are two David Petraeuses?

Right, so why would anyone hold up the opinions of Petraeus, an ex four star general in the US Army, venture capitalist and ex Director of the Fucking CIA, who is clearly not a straight arrow, a dangerous spook, if you like, as a guide to any kind of insight or truth whatsoever relating to anything at all?  The man's an obvious and fully out bogeyman.

chveik

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #608 on: September 09, 2021, 01:49:21 PM »
I see that the Taliban have banned woman’s sport.  Can’t say I blame them.

cunt

Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #609 on: September 09, 2021, 04:16:14 PM »
Right, so why would anyone hold up the opinions of Petraeus, an ex four star general in the US Army, venture capitalist and ex Director of the Fucking CIA, who is clearly not a straight arrow, a dangerous spook, if you like, as a guide to any kind of insight or truth whatsoever relating to anything at all?  The man's an obvious and fully out bogeyman.

I don't think anyone's holding up the opinions of Petraeus, it was just that coincidentally i'd seen him on the telly shortly before I watched the Doc, and it struck me how thier are usually mutiple view points, and more nuanced reasons why history unfolds in a certain way, as opposed to X happend, which then led to Y happening.

Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #610 on: September 09, 2021, 04:20:06 PM »
It's interesting that you say that, because I watched Bitter Lake earlier in the week and had (essentially) the opposite problem with it; he presents financialisation as 'the politicians' handing over power to the 'banks'. I share your sense that these are slightly imprecise blocs but I think that's fair enough for the purposes of narrative polemic. What I found more annoying was the imprecision in how the dynamic was presented - financialisation wasn't a handover of power from politicians to finance, whatever that would even mean in practice, but just a reorganisation of how power was expressed. When you have people like Rees Mogg running Somerset Capital Management and sitting in the HoC it seems to be burying the lede to think of power as passing from one discrete group to the other, in my opinion; finance and politics have never been discrete operations.


Intresting, I was just a bit confused by that section on finacialisation, so maybe I misunderstood what Curtis was getting at.  It's a facianting topic in itself though, and I wish he'd of expanded on it a bit more.

Buelligan

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #611 on: September 09, 2021, 05:15:34 PM »
I don't think anyone's holding up the opinions of Petraeus, it was just that coincidentally i'd seen him on the telly shortly before I watched the Doc, and it struck me how thier are usually mutiple view points, and more nuanced reasons why history unfolds in a certain way, as opposed to X happend, which then led to Y happening.

Are you saying that Curtis dominates all discussion on this topic (and others) and we need to make space for suppressed voices like that of the ex-Director of the CIA?

Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #612 on: September 09, 2021, 05:39:42 PM »
Are you saying that Curtis dominates all discussion on this topic (and others) and we need to make space for suppressed voices like that of the ex-Director of the CIA?

No, not quite. What i was trying (and seemginly failing) to get at, was that history tends to be a bit more nuanced then one persons (ie Curtis's) own view of events.

Buelligan

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #613 on: September 09, 2021, 05:55:46 PM »
So what does that mean?  We need to listen to other people too?  Be conscious of the danger that Curtis might drown out the CIA?

Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #614 on: September 09, 2021, 06:23:43 PM »
I see that the Taliban have banned woman’s sport.  Can’t say I blame them.
Hilarious. They didn’t ban it because they think women’s football is slower than the men’s game, put it this way.

Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #615 on: September 09, 2021, 07:28:56 PM »
So what does that mean?  We need to listen to other people too?  Be conscious of the danger that Curtis might drown out the CIA?

No, nothing to do with the CIA. Just that when watching a Curtis doc, I feel he has a tendancy to pronounce his take on events as some kind of ultimate truth, with no room for duel perspectives. 

Buelligan

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #616 on: September 09, 2021, 07:35:02 PM »
Heheh, yeah, you're right, whilst people like Blair or the CIA tend to be more nuanced, more open to the ideas of others. 

Buelligan

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #617 on: September 10, 2021, 11:24:20 AM »
And now this - a new film from DoubleDown News by another Curtis, Mark Curtis this time, pretty sure he's not a bogeyman, goes into a fair bit of detail on exactly who are and the roles they've played in Afghanistan, twelve minutes well spent.  The One Thing NEVER Mentioned When Talking About Islamist Terrorism going to pop it on to the 9/11 thread too, it needs seeing.

Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #618 on: September 10, 2021, 09:51:11 PM »
Strong case presented here that the recent US drone strike that killed civilians, including children, mistakenly targeted a local aid worker who the US had convinced themselves was preparing an airport attack/car bomb.

https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1436422176425578496

Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #619 on: September 14, 2021, 07:50:39 AM »
Sky News report from the abandoned prison area at Bagram air-base. I haven't seen this reported on elsewhere, if the Taliban were more savvy they would organise a huge press conference and walk through there.

It's shocking stuff, equipment and rooms for sensory deprivation, cells with cage roofs so you're always watched like French colonial prisons in Guiana or Vietnam. Sounds like people in there were held without any charges, I guess you shouldn't be surprised by that but how you can keep a straight face going on about nation-building and education etc. while running places like this.... bloody hell

buttgammon

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Re: Afghanistan
« Reply #620 on: September 14, 2021, 08:45:45 AM »
The scale of it is frightening. I have no illusions about the crimes that were committed in the course of that conflict but the almost industrial nature of the place makes it clear that it was designed to facilitate torture.

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