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Zang Tumb Tuum

Started by The Mumbler, August 02, 2005, 12:18:52 PM

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The Mumbler

I'll start.  Who plays trumpet on Propaganda's Dream Within A Dream?  I've wanted to know for 20 years.  The "A Secret Wish" album has a list of session players that runs: Andrew Richards, Steve Howe, David Sylvian, Glenn Gregory, Trevor Horn, Ian Mosely, Jonathan Sorrell, A(ndreas) Thein, Stuart (sic) Copeland, Allen L. Kirkendale, S.J. Lipson.

Now, Richards was a Fairlight ace, Howe's from Yes and almost certainly plays the guitar solos on The Murder of Love and The Chase, that sounds like Gregory screaming along with Claudia Brucken on Jewel, Thein was a founding member of the band who left after Dr. Mabuse and Copeland *probably* plays the drum solo on Dream Within A Dream (CD version only).  Which leaves Sylvian, Horn, Mosely, Sorrell (who later became a composer for TV), Kirkendale and Lipson.  Any ideas?

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

I really wish they'd release a comprehensive Propaganda boxset, featuring all the alternate mixes and rare bits. Plus lyrics too, of course, and - to answer The Mumbler's queries - proper session info. I still haven't bought that CD of mixes that came out a year or so back - I should be interested, but I'm put off by the fact that it only seems to muddy the 'so hang on, which version is that again?' waters.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

We've probably had this conversation before, Mumbler, but was A Secret Wish issued on CD twice? I know it differed from the vinyl version anyway, but I forget how.

My CD copy acknowledges that there are drop-outs on some of the tracks - even though they appear to give the timings for when these occur, I've never been able to identify them. I've always wondered whether it's a gag. I mean, surely they could fix them? If they're going around remixing stuff anyway, they could presumably paste over the glitches.

alan strang

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"My CD copy acknowledges that there are drop-outs on some of the tracks - even though they appear to give the timings for when these occur, I've never been able to identify them. I've always wondered whether it's a gag. I mean, surely they could fix them? If they're going around remixing stuff anyway, they could presumably paste over the glitches.

Didn't the first CD release of 'Welcome To The Pleasuredome' include such glitch-timings too?

The Mumbler

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"We've probably had this conversation before, Mumbler, but was A Secret Wish issued on CD twice? I know it differed from the vinyl version anyway, but I forget how.

The original CD issue in September 1985 (two months after the LP and cassette) has several differences from the standard issue.  This was replaced in 1994 by a replica of the LP (with an extra track, Frozen Faces), and a second reissue arrived in 2000.  An SACD version came out last year.

The differences on the original CD version (CID 126) are as follows:

Track 1: Dream Within A Dream
At 9'12", it's about a minute longer than the LP version.  Contains a different intro, a drum solo that replaces a guitar solo, extra trumpeting.  Annie Nightingale alerted Radio 1 listeners to this new version when she played it on Radio 1 in early 1986.

Track 3: Jewel
The LP version (3'11") is largely instrumental.  This is a full vocal mix and lasts 6'22".  It is similar to the Jewel (Cut Rough) version on the 12" of Duel, but has a different intro - instead of Claudia's anguished relating of the chorus lyrics, she simply shouts "1, 2, 3, 4!" and we're off.

Track 5: Frozen Faces
Not on the original LP, this was the B-side to the p:Machinery single, issued in August 1985, and unlike all the other differences on the original CD, has survived on all the subsequent reissues.

Track 6: p:Machinery
Replacing the original LP version, this is the 7" single remix.

Track 9: Dr. Mabuse
Has been moved from the LP sequence (Side 2 Track 3) to the end of the album.  This is identical to the LP version until 5'05", when instead of fading out, some eerie string work and industrial clanking backdrop acts as a linking passage to 7'02" when it segues into Strength To Dream.

jutl

Fuck I thought this was a thread about Futurism.

Peking O

Does anyone remember Das Psych-oh Rangers? I can't remember anything about them, but they had a lot of hype at the time didn't they? I'm not even sure whether they got around to releasing an album, but their single on ZTT was called "The Essential Art of Communication."

The Mumbler

Here's the 2002 compilation Outside World explained.  It's very good, and contains two tracks which, while not essential, presumably were intended for the LP.  Several mixes and rarities make their debut on CD.

1. DAS TESTAMENT DES DR MABUSE [13TH LIFE MIX] [6'34"]
The original 12" version of Dr. Mabuse, issued in February 1984.  First time on CD.

2. LIED [2'48"]
The first of two previously unreleased tracks.

3. p.MACHINERY [Beta Mix] [9'33"]
A shorter (7'50") version was included on the Sampled compilation in 1985.  This was issued as a 12" single in November 1985 when ZTT tried to get p,Machinery into the charts for a second time.  First time on CD.

4. DUEL (BITTER SWEET) [7'38"]
The original 12" version, issued in April 1985.  (The long instrumental intro was used for the sports news on Radio 1's News 90!)  Not the first time on CD - it had previously been included on ZTT's 10th anniversary compilation Zance.

5. THE LESSON [4'18"]
The second unreleased track.

6. FROZEN FACES [12" VERSION] [5'30"]
Originally the B-side of the 12" of the first p,Machinery release (August 1985).  Lasts about a minute longer than the version on A Secret Wish.  First time on CD.

7. JEWEL [6'54"]
The Cut-Rough mix from the Duel 12".  First time on CD.

8. COMPLETE MACHINERY [10'56"]
An extended version (longer instrumental intro) of the 9'19" "Polish" mix of p,Machinery, issued August 1985.   First time on CD, although I suspect this was included on the cassette single at the time.  (The Polish mix made its CD debut in 1995 on a CD single when it was accompanied by a horrible 90s remix.)

9. DAS TESTAMENT DES DR MABUSE [DJ PROMO VERSION] [9'52"]
Almost the same as the Secret Wish CD extended version of Dr. Mabuse/Strength to Dream, this has a shorter outro and has been remixed slightly.  (Although this was issued before the album, so that description should be the other way round...).

10. FEMME FATALE (THE WOMAN WITH THE ORCHID) [3'24"]
The B-side of the Dr. Mabuse 12", released February 1984.  Appeared on the Sampled compilation in 1985, but this is its debut on CD.

11. ECHO OF FROZEN FACES [10'28"]
Remix of Frozen Faces, which formed the B-side for the Nov 85 second release of p.Machinery.

Ambient Sheep

Before I get carried away on this thread, are those notes re. Outside World your own, or from another source?

I haven't got the album, you see, didn't even know of it until now, but there's already at least a couple of things to take issue with there as far as I can see. :-) but I also concede that my memory might be a bit rusty after 20 years.

The Mumbler

They're mine.  The sleevenotes on the CD are hopeless.  I gather that there's a European import with the Mabuse and Duel videos on as well.

difbrook

Quote from: "The Mumbler"I'll start.  Who plays trumpet on Propaganda's Dream Within A Dream?  I've wanted to know for 20 years.  The "A Secret Wish" album has a list of session players that runs: Andrew Richards, Steve Howe, David Sylvian, Glenn Gregory, Trevor Horn, Ian Mosely, Jonathan Sorrell, A(ndreas) Thein, Stuart (sic) Copeland, Allen L. Kirkendale, S.J. Lipson.

Now, Richards was a Fairlight ace, Howe's from Yes and almost certainly plays the guitar solos on The Murder of Love and The Chase, that sounds like Gregory screaming along with Claudia Brucken on Jewel, Thein was a founding member of the band who left after Dr. Mabuse and Copeland *probably* plays the drum solo on Dream Within A Dream (CD version only).  Which leaves Sylvian, Horn, Mosely, Sorrell (who later became a composer for TV), Kirkendale and Lipson.  Any ideas?

I can help narrow it down a little, by telling you that Ian Mosely is a drummer - worked extensively with Steve Hackett, and is (and has been for going on 21 years now) the drummer with Marillion. Unlikely to be him. So that's another one off the list...

dust

Nevermind the change of mixes on "A Secret Wish".  The CD of Frankie Goes To Hollywood's "Welcome To The Pleasuredome" has seen a big change in the past, involving completely different mixes AND tracks!  My mate leant me his CD back in 1988 and I loved it.  Three years later I bought my own copy and was mega-p'd-off to find it wasn't even remotely as good as the CD I'd fallen in love with.  No "Happy Hi".  No extended mix of "Two Tribes".  A crap version of "San Jose".  The strange thing was, this "newer" CD had the old (and now wrong) tracklisting on it!?

The Mumbler

Happy Hi! and the Annihilation mix of Two Tribes weren't on the original LP.  Happy Hi! was the B-side to the single of Welcome to the Pleasuredome, and they put one of the 7" mixes of Two Tribes (can't remember which one - there were several of those alone) on it as well.

I have the original CD release, also issued in September 1985.

dust

Quote from: "The Mumbler"I have the original CD release, also issued in
September 1985.
what was on this?  is it the one I'm describing or was it different again???  ;)

The Mumbler

Quote from: "dust"
Quote from: "The Mumbler"I have the original CD release, also issued in
September 1985.
what was on this?  is it the one I'm describing or was it different again???  ;)

I suspect it's the one you were describing.

The World is My Oyster - snatch of fury (stay) [1'57"]
Welcome to the Pleasure Dome [13'39"]
Relax (come fighting) [3'55"]
War (and hide) [6'12"]
Two Tribes (for the victims of ravishment) [9'05"]
including the last voice [1'14"]
Born To Run [4'04"]
Happy Hi [4'09"]
Wish (The Lads Were Here) [3'00"]
(including the ballad of 32) [4'47"]
Krisco Kisses [2'57"]
Black Night White Light [4'05"]
The Only Star In Heaven [4'16"]
The Power Of Love [5'29"]
bang [1'07"]

Quote from: "Peking O"Does anyone remember Das Psych-oh Rangers? I can't remember anything about them, but they had a lot of hype at the time didn't they? I'm not even sure whether they got around to releasing an album, but their single on ZTT was called "The Essential Art of Communication."


I remember seeing Das Psycho Rangers on the Tube, thinking, they're interesting, they'll go far

They promptly disappeared from view.

Singer looked like Martin Gore's younger, healthier, albeit severly mentally ill brother.


Someone mentioned a Propaganda box set - they only did two albums didn't they, and only one with ZTT (the other with only one of the original line-up)

Remember the singer from Propaganda went on to form Act and was married to Paul Morley.

Ambient Sheep

I can't stop now but there were actually at least THREE different CDs of Pleasuredome, although possibly only two different track line-ups.  I also have lots of stuff to post about Propaganda - was going to do it last night but I couldn't get on here for some reason.

Laters.

The Mumbler

Quote from: "Tom Pynchon's PhotoSomeone mentioned a Propaganda box set - they only did two albums didn't they, and only one with ZTT (the other with only one of the original line-up)

Remember the singer from Propaganda went on to form Act and was married to Paul Morley.

A Secret Wish was followed by a downright peculiar remix LP called Wishful Thinking in late 85, which most of the band weren't keen on.  (The remix of Duel/Jewel, called Jewelled, was later used as the theme music to BBC2's rally report coverage.)  The Brucken/Morley relationship seemingly ruined relations within the band, and it split in mid-86 (the marriage in turn floundered in the early 90s).  The second Propaganda LP, 1-2-3-4 (Virgin, 1990) had Michael Mertens from the original line-up, but no-one else (although Susanne did some vocals on a couple of tracks), and some tracks co-written with Howard Jones.  The first single, Heaven Give Me Words, scraped into the top 40.  It's not a bad LP, really, but it's not really Propaganda.  

Act released a few singles including the outstanding Snobbery & Decay, appeared on Tomorrow's World to demonstrate some state-of-the-art technology (forgotten what it was now) and finally released an album called Laughter, Tears & Rage in 1988, which for some reason I've never got round to buying.  Contained a demented reading of Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now.  Bizarrely, this *is* available as a 3-CD box set with all the outtakes and rarities you could possibly want.  Came out last year.  I keep meaning to buy it, but financial paucity keeps intervening.

dust

Quote from: "The Mumbler"
Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"Track 1: Dream Within A Dream
At 9'12", it's about a minute longer than the LP version.  Contains a different intro, a drum solo that replaces a guitar solo, extra trumpeting.  Annie Nightingale alerted Radio 1 listeners to this new version when she played it on Radio 1 in early 1986.

Track 3: Jewel
The LP version (3'11") is largely instrumental.  This is a full vocal mix and lasts 6'22".  It is similar to the Jewel (Cut Rough) version on the 12" of Duel, but has a different intro - instead of Claudia's anguished relating of the chorus lyrics, she simply shouts "1, 2, 3, 4!" and we're off.

Track 5: Frozen Faces
Not on the original LP, this was the B-side to the p:Machinery single, issued in August 1985, and unlike all the other differences on the original CD, has survived on all the subsequent reissues.

Track 6: p:Machinery
Replacing the original LP version, this is the 7" single remix.

Track 9: Dr. Mabuse
Has been moved from the LP sequence (Side 2 Track 3) to the end of the album.  This is identical to the LP version until 5'05", when instead of fading out, some eerie string work and industrial clanking backdrop acts as a linking passage to 7'02" when it segues into Strength To Dream.
I just, in the post today, got a copy of the German "20th Anniversary Edition" of this CD and it has the above (9 track) listing on it - sounds remastered too.  It also has a bonus DVD with surround sound mixes on it (which I haven't listened to yet).  A very nice package - and not bad for just under a tenner!!

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

Where can you get it from?

dust

Got it from Amazon UK:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000942QM/qid=1123611839

I gave it another quick spin and compared it with the original CD.  To be honest, I can't really tell if it's been remastered or not - need to spend a bit more time listening to it methinks...

dust

also, there's a Japanese version of "A Secret Wish" with the following tracklisting:

   8:04 Dream Within a Dream
   5:16 The Murder of Love
   3:09 Jewel
   4:47 Duel
   4:22 Frozen Faces
   3:50 P-Machinery
   3:27 Sorry for Laughing
   5:03 Dr. Mabuse (first life)
   4:05 The Chase
   3:00 Strength To Dream
   3:21 Femme Fatale (The Woman With The Orchid)
   6:36 Dr. Mabuse (13th Life)
   7:36 Duel (bitter-sweet)
   10:47 p:Machinery (the beta wraparound of)

this was taken from a fan site - http://www.p-fan.de (credit where credit's due..)

The Mumbler

Quote from: "dust"also, there's a Japanese version of "A Secret Wish" with the following tracklisting:

   8:04 Dream Within a Dream
   5:16 The Murder of Love
   3:09 Jewel
   4:47 Duel
   4:22 Frozen Faces
   3:50 P-Machinery
   3:27 Sorry for Laughing
   5:03 Dr. Mabuse (first life)
   4:05 The Chase
   3:00 Strength To Dream
   3:21 Femme Fatale (The Woman With The Orchid)
   6:36 Dr. Mabuse (13th Life)
   7:36 Duel (bitter-sweet)
   10:47 p:Machinery (the beta wraparound of)

this was taken from a fan site - http://www.p-fan.de (credit where credit's due..)

Just to clarify - this is the same track listing and mixes as the original LP (except with Frozen Faces added).   Femme Fatale was on the B-side of the 12" of Dr. Mabuse, 13th Life of Dr. Mabuse was the first 12" mix (on 12 ZTAS 2), Duel (bitter-sweet)'s the original 12" (on 12 ZTAS 8), and the last track is the same as Complete Machinery on the Outside World compilation.

The Mumbler

Oh, and forgot to mention: Lied and The Lesson on Outside World were *not* previously unreleased as I had imagined.  They were issued as the second disc on a 7" vinyl double pack of Duel in May 1985.  Which somehow I missed.  That's how it was with ZTT back then - you couldn't help miss the odd format.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten



Catalogue Trousers

Quick query - where can one find the "Into Battle" mix of "Welcome To The Pleasuredome" (as used in the toys' battle scene of the Barry Levinson film, Toys)? Because I blummen love that mix, me.

Ray Le Otter

It's on the "Toys" soundtrack album.

EDIT: ... which is obvious really. Sorry. I could have actually sworn it was on the "12 inches" album but I wuz wrong.

Ciarán2

Cheers, ELW10! Propaganda really are ridiculously underrated. "Dr Mabuse" is terrific, I was listening to the 12" mix earlier. It's on the "12"/80s" compilation.

TOCMFIC

Ah, the heady days of the 12". I wish more compilations like that had been put out.

Whenever I hear "Duel" I always think of BBC's Lombard RAC Rally coverage. They used the intro for the titles. They were a bloody good band. It's amazing the amount of utter shit that is remembered with fondness, and bands like this are largely forgotten.