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March 28, 2024, 01:49:25 PM

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Labour Party: Kieth Stalin: The Gammon Panderer (and Blackpool Cock)

Started by Fambo Number Mive, July 17, 2021, 12:21:42 PM

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idunnosomename

what agents are running this? seriously. surely it's not just Mandy et al. the Tory party is guided by its plutocrat donors and thus supported by print media and the BBC. Labour should be guided by its members and unions. but who is pushing it towards the zero-policy strategy? I mean it doesn't need to be a smoke-filled room conspiracy, just colliding interests: I'm just not sure what they are


BlodwynPig

Labour has GONE hasn't it. Infested with vermin to the point of no return.

pancreas

Yes, it's difficult to see how there's any hope for it. I agree with the twitter thread linked above that they have given up on 2024 and are now only interested in witch hunting the left, since it's what the establishment is telling them to do and the only thing place they have achieve any sort of victory. The loss at the high court will just have emboldened them to say that they can now fabricate secret policies by which to judge members in camera. And yes, all failure must be blamed on the left: you noticed the focus group had a younger guy in specifically chosen to talk about how toxic Corbyn was. The whole thing a performace by and for gammons.

The key test will be the next conference. If they manage to gerrymander that, then I'm not sure I've got the stomach to stay.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Moving the party to the left through membership and internal reform is still by far the most likely route for success for the left in this country. It is also what our enemy least wants us to do. It is also what most recently worked.

The attempts to remove certain factions is already ugly and will become uglier, but ultimately we will be doing precisely what they want if we leave.

If you allow your own principles to rule you then you'll have the sanctity and comfort of knowing you have a clean conscience, while the country itself which you claim to care about drifts further away from what you want it to look like, all the while having abdicated from the only vaguely realistic struggle to improve it. This isn't a guilt trip, just a pragmatic look at the pluses and minuses.

When some leftwingers with nouse and solid financial backing use technology to render Westminster an obsolete entity I'll be there.

buttgammon

It's just some kind of self-induced Pasokification at this point, where they're going to fade into obscurity.

I'm reminded of Irish Labour, who were the second biggest party in the Dáil ten years ago and have now been reduced to six seats after participating in a coalition that cut public services to ribbons. Admittedly, it's much harder for that dramatic a decline to happen under FPTP, not least because some people will feel obliged to keep voting Labour as the lesser of two evils, but if they keep incinerating all of the policies and principles they once had, they're heading there. Courting the votes of people who will never vote for your party is not a good strategy.

Quote from: Bobloblawslawbomb on March 11, 2021, 10:51:38 AM
So fucking stupid. Looking forward to when the tories inevitably u-turn and offer a 2.2% pay increase. They can then attack Labour for hating nurses. Just great politics once again from the grown ups!

Quote| NEW: The government is to give NHS workers a 3% pay rise instead of the 1%

Via @POLITICOEurope

Called it.

NoSleep

Quote from: Leo2112 on July 19, 2021, 12:04:00 AM
Thread on Labour's next 10 years - https://twitter.com/SteveNickSmith/status/1416763052435906564

This is why it's so important to remain in the party right now. Things will get even worse for the centrists as the younger left-oriented generation take their place.

pancreas

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on July 19, 2021, 09:21:45 AM
Moving the party to the left through membership and internal reform is still by far the most likely route for success for the left in this country. It is also what our enemy least wants us to do. It is also what most recently worked.

The attempts to remove certain factions is already ugly and will become uglier, but ultimately we will be doing precisely what they want if we leave.

If you allow your own principles to rule you then you'll have the sanctity and comfort of knowing you have a clean conscience, while the country itself which you claim to care about drifts further away from what you want it to look like, all the while having abdicated from the only vaguely realistic struggle to improve it. This isn't a guilt trip, just a pragmatic look at the pluses and minuses.

When some leftwingers with nouse and solid financial backing use technology to render Westminster an obsolete entity I'll be there.

The above is so devoid of detail as to be barely recognisable as a lofty goal. I don't think you'd recognise pragmatism if it were coming round the corner. It's also a boring reiteration of the sort of thing that gets trotted out on every fucking Labour whatsapp organising group I'm still a member of, but with added patronisation.

What is a path to reform, when it's all going in the wrong direction? I'm talking about: 'if a) happens, then b); if not a) then we try c) [...].' I accept there is an argument for 'just wait and see', but that's an article of faith, not of strategy. And the value of it as an article of faith seems to devalue by the day. In short, I'm not sure even the pittance they get from me is worth it for the minuscule probabilities of improvement.

Paul Calf

Quote from: NoSleep on July 19, 2021, 09:42:05 AM
This is why it's so important to remain in the party right now. Things will get even worse for the centrists as the younger left-oriented generation take their place.

Younger left-oriented people are not going to be attracted to Labour.

pancreas

No, and they shouldn't be. Revolution seems more likely to me than the LP getting into power and changing anything meaningful. It would be more sensible to prepare for the former.

NoSleep

Quote from: Paul Calf on July 19, 2021, 09:47:36 AM
Younger left-oriented people are not going to be attracted to Labour.

The alternative is to be sidelined.

EDIT: or Pancreas' revolution. The former much more likely, without Labour.

pancreas

Unforunately, it will have to be their revolution. The cost of catering for mine would be prohibitive.

Buelligan

Very happy to provide vegan bonne bouche and as much ricin as you can eat.  Also a pretty decent shot.  Let me know.

peanutbutter

Quote from: Leo2112 on July 19, 2021, 12:04:00 AM
Thread on Labour's next 10 years - https://twitter.com/SteveNickSmith/status/1416763052435906564
I think it'd be optimistic to even view it as some kind of masterplan, it's shit people who expected everyone to just adore Starmer and sensible centrist policies, they've realise now they've shat the bed and are just desperately trying to figure out a reframing that lets them still be right without changing anything.

I do have to wonder who on earth on the right or even centre of the party would want to be leader at this point. Much easier to just leave  Starmer repeatedly humiliating himself while you figure out  some bonus roles on the side. It'll just be the remnants of the Blair era taking a turn at wearing the captains band.

Quote from: Bobloblawslawbomb on July 19, 2021, 09:32:34 AM
Called it.
It's wild how shit they are at this, repeatedly making policies that try to offer some kind of supposed balanced point that the tories can instantly skew by making a minor adjustment.

Mr_Simnock

Labour now are at the sort of nadir that the tories were under ids, well actually they are worse

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: pancreas on July 19, 2021, 09:45:18 AM
The above is so devoid of detail as to be barely recognisable as a lofty goal. I don't think you'd recognise pragmatism if it were coming round the corner. It's also a boring reiteration of the sort of thing that gets trotted out on every fucking Labour whatsapp organising group I'm still a member of, but with added patronisation.

What is a path to reform, when it's all going in the wrong direction? I'm talking about: 'if a) happens, then b); if not a) then we try c) [...].' I accept there is an argument for 'just wait and see', but that's an article of faith, not of strategy. And the value of it as an article of faith seems to devalue by the day. In short, I'm not sure even the pittance they get from me is worth it for the minuscule probabilities of improvement.

This isn't really tackling the central logic which is that what you do with your money and time if you are interested in furthering social justice politically (as opposed to charity work etc) has to either already be superior to trying to reform Labour through the membership or be so rapidly advancing as a prospect and a threat to our enemies as to be preferable.

We have neither, which leaves us with the shitty situation we at least still get a vote on, or doing something from near scratch, which doesn't even necessarily require you to leave.

I'm not sure what more detail is required here.

You are emphasising the miniscule prospect of change but we have already witnessed it not long ago in our lifetimes and the fact energy is being poured into preventing it happening again is already tacit acknowledgement by the right wing that they remain vulnerable. The only way they remain vulnerable is if people like us continue to refuse to leave. Do what they least want you to do.


Buelligan

If you feel like that, why not join any extant party (whether you agree with them or not), provided they have a reasonably democratic method of running things?  Just buy a stake in any shitty crock of grifters that look like they could get elected.  Heal it with your vote.


NoSleep

Quote from: Buelligan on July 19, 2021, 11:50:10 AM
If you feel like that, why not join any extant party (whether you agree with them or not), provided they have a reasonably democratic method of running things?

What other option than the party in opposition is a more viable investment?

ZoyzaSorris

Whilst there remains/remained even the remote possibility of reforming Labour from within I'd agree there is/was some merit to S&S and Nosleep's takes - however I think the overwhelming evidence is that we are rapidly approaching or have already passed the point of that no longer being the case, to taste depending on optimism. We've seen that these people won't let rules or regulations stand in the way - they will simply retroactviely change them. And there is nothing I can see now that will stop them continue doing that to lock the left out of any input into the party forever (with full support of the entire levers of power of the establishment). We need to start thinking of a plan B and soon. What the hell that is is anyone's guess, but sadly it's the only option that will soon be left to us.

For those of you convinced some chance of a fightback remains inside the party, I'd like you to explain the route to doing so. As it's definitely the preferable option if it has a non-zero chance of success. But I can't see it, thanks to the gullible fuckwits that voted for Starmer and the cretins who allowed the NEC by election left vote to be split at the same time. I think that double whammy enabled by an array of useful idiots was it sadly - if the left had held on to the NEC then there might have been a chance.

MoreauVasz

Quote from: NoSleep on July 19, 2021, 09:42:05 AM
This is why it's so important to remain in the party right now. Things will get even worse for the centrists as the younger left-oriented generation take their place.

And that would make things different... How?

It's not just that Labour are an absolute joke of a party, it's that the left if the Labour Party are a bunch of incompetent headless chickens who are just passively getting removed from the party. As weak as the leadership have been, the left have been absolutely incapable of either articulating an alternative or organising any kind of resistance.

Buelligan

The Left is not a joke, fellow.  I'm not fucking laughing.  The Left stood and nearly won in 2017 - without the ROW pile-on, including and starring those on the right of the Labour Party, Murdoch, the whole MSM, fuck me, any dull cunt who they could energise, we would have won.  That loss, won with lies, is not a fucking joke.  Not on your nelly, old chum.  And repeating that empty catechism helps what?  There was resistance, that's why they're purging.

Quote from: NoSleep on July 19, 2021, 12:30:24 PM
What other option than the party in opposition is a more viable investment?

That's the horror of it, that's the bet that utter cunts like Mandelson have been profiting on for years.  And countless people have suffered, died even, because of it.

Personally, the idea of ones political philosophy being commodified is anathema to my political philosophy, so what I laid out there, as I'm sure you know, disgusts me.  But I feel like that's what Shoulders is saying - buy yourself a voice, even if it means paying the mafia because we can't get rid of them any other way.  I feel like we've been round this one more than once already.  But, even if we hadn't, if we're going to just say the smart ones buy a vote, why limit our purchase to Labour?  Why not put our money where the biggest chance of power is?

It's moot anyway, my wallet is now closed to viewers.

Zetetic

The last year and a half should make it clear that the existence of any part of the Anglo-British state is incompatible with serious improvement, let alone UK Labour.

Bernice

Quote from: Zetetic on July 19, 2021, 02:13:36 PM
The last year and a half should make it clear that the existence of any part of the Anglo-British state is incompatible with serious improvement, let alone UK Labour.

I don't think you can make quite so sweeping an assertion. And I'm definitely unconvinced that an Anglo-British state on the precipice of splintering and an anaemic neo-liberalism on its last legs are quite the hegemonic opposition to transformation that your pessimism would suggest.

Zetetic

There is no hint of splintering. Minor outlying regions leaving the UK will support it to more firmly entrench its identity.

greencalx

Momentum statement (can't find on their website, came by email):

Quote from: Dangerous people
At a time when the Tory Government is allowing the pandemic to rip through the country, the Labour leadership has once again turned inwards, creating a vacuum where real opposition is needed and distracting from the task of delivering a Labour Government. The auto-expulsion of members that share this ambition and our Party's values only strengthens the Tories.

We oppose guilt by association. The Labour Party has always been home to a wide range of political traditions and we have a responsibility to work with each other to build support for socialist ideas and policies.

Labour should be the home of all those that do this vital work and are committed to a Labour Government. We must collaborate with each other in the spirit of tolerance and respect, and with the values of socialism and anti-racism. When members fall short of these standards they should be held to account through the Party's disciplinary processes. When members meet these standards, they should not expect to face automatic expulsion.

We have a responsibility to make sure our Party is an anti-racist party and this includes acknowledging that Labour, at all levels, often fails to be so. The burying of the Forde report and the deafening silence from the leadership on anti-Muslim prejudice in Labour indicate deep problems at the top of the Party when it comes to tackling racism, and throws serious doubt on claims that these proscriptions are being done in the name of anti-racism.

There are now some in the media and the Party openly arguing for the proscription of Momentum, and over the coming months we expect the anonymous briefings calling for this to increase. It has long been a belief of some on the right of Labour that the way to win favour with the media establishment is to try to smash the Left.

This is a cynical and desperate politics that offers nothing to the millions of working class people let down by our political system and left behind by our economy. It will also alienate the members we need to win an election. This is a route to failure and will destroy our Party.

We will not sit quietly as a small and detached clique attempts to drive Momentum and the broader Left out of a party that we have helped to rejuvenate. The many crises of the 21st century - from COVID-19 to climate change - demand a socialist response and we will not shrink from campaigning for it, inside Labour and in the country.

Paul Calf

Barring a revolution or a coup, The Tories are going to be in power for the next two decades.

jobotic

Perhaps we should all join the Tory party and try and steer them towards socialism

Buelligan

Exactly.  Let the market decide.

Quote from: greencalx on July 19, 2021, 03:09:25 PM
Momentum statement (can't find on their website, came by email):
Quote from: Dangerous PeopleAt a time when the Tory Government is allowing the pandemic to rip through the country, the Labour leadership has once again turned inwards, creating a vacuum where real opposition is needed and distracting from the task of delivering a Labour Government. The auto-expulsion of members that share this ambition and our Party's values only strengthens the Tories.

We oppose guilt by association. The Labour Party has always been home to a wide range of political traditions and we have a responsibility to work with each other to build support for socialist ideas and policies.

Labour should be the home of all those that do this vital work and are committed to a Labour Government. We must collaborate with each other in the spirit of tolerance and respect, and with the values of socialism and anti-racism. When members fall short of these standards they should be held to account through the Party's disciplinary processes. When members meet these standards, they should not expect to face automatic expulsion.

We have a responsibility to make sure our Party is an anti-racist party and this includes acknowledging that Labour, at all levels, often fails to be so. The burying of the Forde report and the deafening silence from the leadership on anti-Muslim prejudice in Labour indicate deep problems at the top of the Party when it comes to tackling racism, and throws serious doubt on claims that these proscriptions are being done in the name of anti-racism.

There are now some in the media and the Party openly arguing for the proscription of Momentum, and over the coming months we expect the anonymous briefings calling for this to increase. It has long been a belief of some on the right of Labour that the way to win favour with the media establishment is to try to smash the Left.

This is a cynical and desperate politics that offers nothing to the millions of working class people let down by our political system and left behind by our economy. It will also alienate the members we need to win an election. This is a route to failure and will destroy our Party.

We will not sit quietly as a small and detached clique attempts to drive Momentum and the broader Left out of a party that we have helped to rejuvenate. The many crises of the 21st century - from COVID-19 to climate change - demand a socialist response and we will not shrink from campaigning for it, inside Labour and in the country.


They needed to come out unequivocally when we still had a piece of the True Cross.  Everyone knows what's being done, it's been being done for months and months and months in the Regions, in the CLPs, in smug little zoom chats, across the country.  No one's listening now.  Well, not enough to do owt anyway.

I don't even think they believe they're killing the Left to appease the Establishment.  I think they're doing it because they are the Establishment and they can.

Sebastian Cobb

Tory party membership is access to a hobnobbing club innit? The party itself is quite undemocratic, although to be fair to them it seems to be working out for them.