Sports Clothing Hot Potato Polemic

[Paul Calf]

It was an all-girls school. We'd often get dirty old men hanging about.

Depressingly, a lot of women, myself included, can recall their first experience of street harassment occurring while they were wearing school uniform. Lots of creeps out there.

I'm amazed that they managed to take photos of children without getting their cameras stuffed up into their small intestines.

[Sebastian Cobb]

fond memories of some old duffer leaning out his window shaking a fist at a school bus when we were away somewhere then trying to angrily take a photo when the response he got was a school bus full of teenagers flicking the v's back at him.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I think maybe the governing body's board is mainly made up of people with a penis

Don't forget balls mate

[Blue Jam]

Amazing to think that in the 90's you could take photos of your kids at sports day or take a camcorder to the Nativity play but now those things are (rightly) a total no-no. When we were on school trips we used to get tourists asking if they could get a group photo showing "Typical British school uniforms" and our teachers always agreed and let them, now they'd probably have a legal disclaimer memorised for such occasions.

I think there is still this idea that teenage girls in school uniform are fair game though, the idea that girls grow up faster these days and know men are looking at them and enjoy the attention, and hey, everyone knows school uniforms are sexy, no-one can deny that or stop people having School Disco club nights or whatever. There's also the idea that school dress codes are intended to "prepare girls for the world of work" while they seem to be have a weird emphasis on sexual modesty rather than looking smart and professional and tasteful, and while we don't have the same thing for boys to stop them growing into the sort of men who think it's acceptable to wear novelty ties and those black leather trainers that kind of look like proper shoes to a job interview.

[Norton Canes]

Sport is basically all about humiliation so none of this surprises me

[Pijlstaart]

A long jumper will cover a displayed arse, choirboys have known this since time immemorial, so too have chaste public shitters. Consistency is key. Perhaps some sort of curfew is in order, just until we figure out what the hell is going on.

[TrenterPercenter]

No, you misunderstood in your desire to make your recurring point that women are sexual creatures. I agree with your recurring point. It's self-evident to the extent that nobody else on the forum makes this point!

This is neither true or "self evident".  Female sexuality is often dismissed by omission or directly (which happened on here not too long ago if you care to remember).  It's sounds more like it perhaps makes you uncomfortable (which is weird considering you want to talk about it from your perspective).  There is no end of evidence out there about current and historic omission of female sexuality and even a female poster in this thread reminded us of the abysmal views on female sexuality after a certain age that still exist out there; frankly it's a bizarre stance to take if I'm honest.

I was pointing out that your observation about female sexuality was irrelevant to the point I made in the OP in case you misread in your haste to make this point.

Ahh but you see it was you that made the assertion that female athletes from the perspective of the audience are sexualised more than men; I merely asserted that this might misleading due to vocalisation of male sexual desire.  It was in fact you that brought sexualisation from an audience perspective when this really only has to do with the officials (one that thinks skimpy is bad for business and one that thinks it's good for business).

You took the conversation into the realm of the public for some reason and made a statement that men are more likely to sexualise sports people; when it is typical human behaviour and that shouldn't be confined being a majority "male" thing (you also then mixed this up with sexual abuse in teams which is something that needs the be given a bit more care really).  I'll also point out that as always male and female sexuality from non-heterosexual positions are also omitted so that generally men (generally men and tory women); can tell everyone what their desires are and should be.

While it's comfortable for you and me and Shoulders to say 'they should be able to wear what they want', that isn't the case for these athletes in their respective sports. By contrasting the standards and expectations of dress across these two sports, I'm pointing out that both positions are flawed

Glad we are in agreement on something mini Cheddars.  You've answered your own question though really haven't you.

[Dex Sawash]

cheering 'fucking jummmmp!' and whooping while masturbating our penis and/or prostate and/or clitoris/vagina using a vibrator and/or a dildo until we've reached sexual climax

Not to late to get this event in for Paris 2024, going to need a good name though

[Huxleys Babkins]

Amazing to think that in the 90's you could take photos of your kids at sports day or take a camcorder to the Nativity play but now those things are (rightly) a total no-no. When we were on school trips we used to get tourists asking if they could get a group photo showing "Typical British school uniforms" and our teachers always agreed and let them, now they'd probably have a legal disclaimer memorised for such occasions.

My lad's school let you take photos and videos at sports day (when we still had them pre-pandemic), but ask you not to upload them to social media.

Nativities are a no-no as performances were being utterly ruined by dickheads standing up and calling out to their kids, distracting the kids with camera flashes, etc. so the school put an end to that and film performances themselves to sell on DVD. The venn diagram of parents who think it was just an excuse to make money and the parents who were obliviously fucking it up for everyone is, unsurprisingly, a near-perfect circle.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I think there is still this idea that teenage girls in school uniform are fair game though, the idea that girls grow up faster these days

It's the other way around. Young adults live a more infantilised and coddled existence now by far. There are huge benefits to it being like that. Having a high age of consent and a formal one that applies to everyone across the country is relatively recent. You only have to recall Prince Phillip who "courted" Elizabeth while he was an adult and she was 13. Not something seen as at all abnormal at the time and not currently seen as strange in many cultures who we are informed we must tolerate.

I know you know all this but that was to do with drawing the line by when a girl has begun menstruating and from a time when their purpose in life was predominantly to produce children then care for them. Also from religion who regarded women as being property from the point they became married. Everything happened awfully fast to reach the point where they could spend nearly their entire life subjugated.

I suppose there will be sexual taboos and fetish around school uniform but it is mainly to do with power, making young women know they are being watched and enjoying watching their discomfort. The term creepy is overused but it applies perfectly to that behaviour.

[robhug]

Some German volleyballers boycotted Qatar as they made them wear too much and werent allowed to wear Bikinis

Who's in the wrong there, the women or a highly religious Islamic state?

https://www.dw.com/en/german-beach-volleyball-duo-shun-qatar-over-bikini-ban/a-56658786

everyone just seems very argumentative these days.




I've got a particular interest in this sport

[Attila]

It was an all-girls school. We'd often get dirty old men hanging about.

Depressingly, a lot of women, myself included, can recall their first experience of street harassment occurring while they were wearing school uniform. Lots of creeps out there.

Similiar experience here, except change it to late 70s/early 1980s East Coast of the US. All sorts of stuffy rules about the uniform, but phys ed days,  shorts and cheaply made little shirts, all on display for any passersby. My school was in a downtown area of a major city, and we always had 'interested' spectators watching us during gym class.

[TrenterPercenter]

everyone knows school uniforms are sexy, no-one can deny that or stop people having School Disco club nights or whatever.

I completely agree with what you are saying as in it is obviously out there and troubling but I can honestly say I've never found school uniforms sexy.  I simply don't get it (and furthermore don't want to).

Dunno seems to have connotations of naivety and subservience which before even getting into the problematic issues around this I just find an anathema to sexiness.  I find all that anime and K-pop stuff troubling also if I'm honest.

[chveik]

Slightly bigger things in the world to worry about that someone's choice of gym kit.

don't post in this thread then!

[Blue Jam]

All good points there Shoulders. I'll just expand on this one:

I suppose there will be sexual taboos and fetish around school uniform but it is mainly to do with power, making young women know they are being watched and enjoying watching their discomfort. The term creepy is overused but it applies perfectly to that behaviour.

I'm thinking of that bit in Withnail and I where Withnail shouts "SCRUBBERS!" at a group of schoolgirls and justifies it with "Little tarts, they love it" (when the reply of "UP YOURS GRANDAD!" clearly suggests they don't). I wonder if that attitude comes from the same place as the Daily Mail's "Sidebar of Shame" and headlines like "[female celebrity] flaunts her curves", "[female celebrity] puts on a busty display", "[female celebrity] showcases her burgeoning baby bump" etc. People telling themselves that women are actively seeking this kind of creepy attention as a justification for harassing them. I definitely remember attitudes like that being around when I was wearing school uniform in the 90's, and how harassment didn't make me feel good, but just frightened and confused.

I think people also like to overestimate the maturity of teenage girls, telling themselves they mature earlier than boys and are somehow mentally prepared to be sexualised. There's also that whole "If there's grass on the pitch" attitude that forgets the possibility that someone's body may mature faster than their brain. Then again I don't think that's just a teenage girl thing, I think there is a tendency for adults to treat teenagers like either children or adults when it suits them-  ie, being 17 and a half and being told "You can't go out past 10pm, you're only 17" then "How could you make such a stupid mistake? You're practically an adult". Or not being allowed to see 18-rated films at the cinema when you're 15, but still having to pay adult ticket prices.

[TrenterPercenter]

don't post in this thread then!

must be hot under that rock

[dissolute ocelot]

Beach volleyball is really fucked up. You can't escape the suspicion that it was invented for male titillation, or at least to evoke the atmosphere of the Brazilian beach. It's certainly not the only sport with uniform/costume rules, but one of the only where the uniform seems invented to amuse spectators. At the same time, if you're moving a lot and it's hot, briefs may be practical. As to female athletes, in general they seem to wear whatever enables them to perform well. Wimbledon tries to make women wear skirts, which have no practical value, but generally sportswear is extremely functional.

Swimming costumes are interesting: about 10 years ago everybody started wearing full-body suits that reduced drag and may have increased buoyancy, but now rules require them to be above the knee; for men the upper torso must be bare and for women the arms are bare although women can still wear this. This ban on full suits might have been partly for aesthetics or tradition, but there were also complaints that the suits trapped air and added buoyancy, which would be cheating.

Skintight sportswear is common in almost every sport, for freedom of movement, streamlining, and sometimes for avoiding getting caught up in stuff/being grabbed, and tight base layers are also reputed to improve muscle performance. Even the Swedish beach volleyballers wanted lycra shorts. If anything, you could say male athletes are discriminated against because women wear what they like but men get in trouble if their knob is clearly visible (except in wrestling).

It's a whole other issue with child competitors, which gymnasts tend to be. And with "artistic" disciplines (ice dance, some gymnastics, etc) where costumes aim for aesthetics as well as practicality. But if you've got athletic young adults with toned bodies, it's always going to be kind of sexual.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I'm thinking of that bit in Withnail and I where Withnail shouts "SCRUBBERS!" at a group of schoolgirls and justifies it with "Little tarts, they love it" (when the reply of "UP YOURS GRANDAD!" clearly suggests they don't

I suppose student/dropout life changes so glacially that it's easy to overlook that the racism, sexism and homophobia in Withnail references that it is set in the 60s where all were normalised (though at a push it could equally be set when it was filmed, albeit with a few amendments).

If I was being generous there, I think Withnail is pissed out of his mind, has no interest in them at all other than getting a reaction, like an.... Out of work actor searching for an audience.

[Blue Jam]

I don't know, isn't Marwood in particular supposed to come across as really not very nice? He uses racial slurs and voted Conservative, he's hardly a leftie luvvie.

If I was being generous there, I think Withnail is pissed out of his mind, has no interest in them at all other than getting a reaction, like an.... Out of work actor searching for an audience.

Nice point about him searching for an audience there, but all street harassment is about getting a reaction, whether it's with words or a look of humiliation or frightened silence. It's about power more than sex, men will frequently harass women they have no sexual interest in (the kind they'll abuse for being overweight or allegedly promiscuous or otherwise unattractive in their eyes).

[TrenterPercenter]

Swimming costumes are interesting: about 10 years ago everybody started. This ban on full suits might have been partly for aesthetics or tradition, but there were also complaints that the suits trapped air and added buoyancy, which would be cheating.

I used to swim competitively and can vouch that it is a very sexualised sport; there is a lot of body image problems and competitiveness that goes on that is really unhealthy.

[TrenterPercenter]

Nice point about him searching for an audience there, but all street harassment is about getting a reaction, whether it's with words or a look of humiliation or frightened silence. It's about power more than sex, men will frequently harass women they have no sexual interest in (the kind they'll abuse for being overweight or allegedly promiscuous or otherwise unattractive in their eyes).

This 100%

displaying dominance to their 'mates' via the humiliation of others

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

It's about power more than sex, men will frequently harass anyone they have no sexual interest in (the kind they'll abuse for being overweight or allegedly promiscuous or otherwise unattractive in their eyes).

Amended, and yes, some men find vulnerable people of any gender viable targets (more vulnerable people are women in their eyes so no doubt they get the brunt, but literally every man on this forum will have several first hand experiences of the same) to bully for their pathetic kicks.

Incidentally, I get a lot less random abuse from that group now I am older and balder, I probably stand more chance of getting rinsed by some students these days, who will just go after anyone who happens to be nearby.

I think we are possibly getting sidetracked at this stage though.

[Catalogue of ills]

I suppose there will be sexual taboos and fetish around school uniform but it is mainly to do with power, making young women know they are being watched and enjoying watching their discomfort. The term creepy is overused but it applies perfectly to that behaviour.

I'm sure this is right, I wonder whether the more fetishistic side of it is that school uniforms evoke a time when we were full of hormones and feeling horny all the time. I'm afraid this is the case with me and tennis - I played a lot of tennis when I was 17 and 18 and was full on gagging for it all the time (not getting it obviously though) and I think watching people play tennis with a lot of flesh showing does act as a bit of a trigger for me, as problematic as that probably sounds, in a way that other sports don't.

[Blue Jam]

Skintight sportswear is common in almost every sport, for freedom of movement, streamlining, and sometimes for avoiding getting caught up in stuff/being grabbed, and tight base layers are also reputed to improve muscle performance. Even the Swedish beach volleyballers wanted lycra shorts. If anything, you could say male athletes are discriminated against because women wear what they like but men get in trouble if their knob is clearly visible (except in wrestling).

Also if you want to feel the benefits of modern moisture-wicking fabrics, they have to be close to the skin. And I'm reliably informed that compression tops/leggings make a huge difference in staying warm when running in cold weather.

You also see this with men complaining about women wearing leggings/"yoga pants" and form-fitting tops in gyms, that this is distracting and women should wear loose clothing instead, but leggings really are the most comfortable and practical thing you can wear for exercise.

It is confusing when you're pressured to look sexy one minute then told to cover up the next. It feels like the goalposts are constantly shifting and you can never keep up.

tbh I do feel a bit sorry for the fellas who are denied the freedom and comfort of leggings, though I have known plenty of men who have worn lycra shorts or running tights without giving a fuck and have just learned to avert my eyes. For my benefit more than theirs.

[TrenterPercenter]

tbh I do feel a bit sorry for the fellas who are denied the freedom and comfort of leggings, though I have known plenty of men who have worn lycra shorts or running tights without giving a fuck and have just learned to avert my eyes. For my benefit more than theirs.

Got some leggings for jogging outside last winter as it happens; mainly as a solution to having my heart monitor and tunes available (which requires my phone) and not wanting to pay megabucks for an Apple Watch.  They are very good.  Also got some shorts that are lycra on the inside (with another pocket that holds your phone to your leg) that look like normal shorts from the outside.  Also good.

You also see this with men complaining about women wearing leggings/"yoga pants" and form-fitting tops in gyms, that this is distracting and women should wear loose clothing instead, but leggings really are the most comfortable and practical thing you can wear for exercise.

Sorry if this another truism for Cheddars but these men are idiots; as if they are passively distracted and can't control themselves. 

These women don't realise that we are MEN, with balls, these balls have mutated to have their own sentience and the little brains that developed are Gary Legend brains.  This is all women's fault.

[Chedney Honks]

Trent, you can just say 'OK, I understand' without trying to engineer conflict. We're in agreement on every point, and I'm not interested in your indefatigable pontification.

[TrenterPercenter]

Trent, you can just say 'OK, I understand' without trying to engineer conflict. We're in agreement on every point, and I'm not interested in your indefatigable pontification.

Ok, I understand

[Chedney Honks]

👍

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I'm sure this is right, I wonder whether the more fetishistic side of it is that school uniforms evoke a time when we were full of hormones and feeling horny all the time. I'm afraid this is the case with me and tennis - I played a lot of tennis when I was 17 and 18 and was full on gagging for it all the time (not getting it obviously though) and I think watching people play tennis with a lot of flesh showing does act as a bit of a trigger for me, as problematic as that probably sounds, in a way that other sports don't.

I think there's something in that, yes. Psychosexuality in terms of people's preferences does seem to be heavily influenced by formative experiences of sexual behaviour and desire, some more than others.

At the same time, our school uniform was black trousers and a black jumper. You could wear a skirt but nearly all the girls didn't. Can't say whether it made much difference to the level of underage sex or teenage pregnancy but that dress code doesn't really class as wank fodder for me. Going around with a FUCK OFF RAGING STONK ON was more uni onwards. Never guess who I fancy lads, never guess: adult women, love an adult woman me.

I think the problem is that sexual desire is so tied up with shame that it's impossible to have any genuinely open conversation even regarding socially acceptable forms of it. Liberation sounds fun, empowering even, freedom from stigma, acceptance of reality, then you feel sick and want to cool it with a cold shower, bed of nails and a load of puritans kicking the fuck out of you.

[TrenterPercenter]

👍

Ahhh the thumb of conflict