Has Liverpool Fucked It?

[Paul Calf]

secondly nobody knows where or what Tranmere is

Exactly.

[dothestrand]

Joe Anderson and his pals were just a 21c T Dan Smith. Labour did the right thing cracking down on them (for which they were heavily criticised).

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Joe Anderson and his pals were just a 21c T Dan Smith. Labour did the right thing cracking down on them (for which they were heavily criticised).

They did the right thing cracking down on them because the replacements are *checks* considerably worse.

[Goldentony]

replacements currently trying to privatise land on the docks to stop people gathering there to hang out with each other, its going really great so far, we really launched the rot out when we got rid of Joe 'Joe' Anderson

[Blumf]

secondly nobody knows where or what Tranmere is

Is it a character from Blake's 7?

[JamesTC]

replacements currently trying to privatise land on the docks to stop people gathering there to hang out with each other, its going really great so far, we really launched the rot out when we got rid of Joe 'Chippy Tits' Anderson

[imitationleather]

Since Spurs knocked our historic ground down and became tenants in an NFL stadium everything has been rosey and we've swept away all opponents in our path so I say Everton should definitely go for it.

[Jittlebags]

It's Peel Holdings innit? Them's wot have fucked it up.

[Ted-Maul]

Yep, Everton's new stadium is to be built on a disused dock (next to the sewage works) that nobody would or could visit. It's not even in the UNESCO heritage area anyway so it's more likely Peel's 'liverpool waters' project that's made them shit the bed, although a new waterfront stadium may have been the last straw.

The never-ending stream of student accomodation blocks going up over the last few years, as well as the sudden appearance of a hundred shitty, fake Irish bars are a plague on the city. Just obvious corruption, selling the soul of the place for a quick buck. Then Joe Anderson was deposed only to be replaced by Jo Anderson. You couldn't make it up etc.

But yeah, I think it's wrong to blame Everton, we've been trying to move for 15+ years, there's nowhere else for us to go. Retaining our match atmosphere was (I think) the main thing fans wanted to during the consultation and the architect has done his best to achieve this, that's how it's been sold to us anyway, plus it looks pretty great from the outside. But we won't know until it's too late and Goodison has been bulldozed to create some 'affordable' housing (flats).

[Huxleys Babkins]

secondly nobody knows where or what Tranmere is

Exactly.

Milk Marketing Board consider rewrite.

[buzby]

The area around the Victorian docks is in utter disrepair. Its listed status, derelict warehouses and run-down buildings were always going to be barriers to attracting worthwhile investment.

If the city council had spent more time working on ways to redevelop that part of town sympathetically rather than crookedly chasing the quick bucks from China then it wouldn't have had to give up the title for the sake of a football stadium. And this time it can't even be pinned on the Tories - the city has been fucked sideways by its own corrupt leadership for over a decade.

I also agree with Goldentony that the place has become a soulless party town (whilst the areas surrounding the city centre are long since lost to poverty and squalor)

The development of the Northern Docks is just the straw that's broken the camel's back for UNESCO. They have been disapproving of the council's attitude to the development of the area around the Pier Head for years.

It's not the Chinese who are behind it (though it's mostly money from Far East investors), it's Peel Holdings, who own the land. They originally bought the Manchester Docks and Ship Canal, and built Salford Quays and the Trafford Centre. They then bought the Mersey Docks & Harbour Board and all it's land and have been trying to do the same with it's Wirral Waters and Liverpool Waters schemes (though progress has been very slow since the financial crisis).

The UNESCO World Heritage status was for the waterfront, particularly the area around the Albert Dock and 'Three Graces' (The MDHB Building, Cunard Building and Liver Building) at the Pier Head. Unfortunately, the Council, going back the early 2000s when 'Smiling' Mike Storey's Lib Dems were in power, have basically been bending over and parting their cheeks for any developer that came along in the quest for 'regeneration'. It started in Princes Dock immediately to the north of the Pier Head, where they rubber-stamped some particularly dull and ugly arpartment/office/hotel developments, and the Beetham Tower development at the end of Old Hall St (they granted planning permission for the first tower with an ''unusually large' garden area in front of it, then once it was complete Beetham said we are going to build a second tower on that garden area and the planning committee gave them carte blanche.

Immediately south of the Pier Head and between it and the Albert Dock was Mann Island. The only buildings there was a 1930s art deco car dealership and some small 1900s warehouses that were part of of the Maritime Museum's estate. For the Capital Of Culture the council wanted to build a 'Fourth Grace' on the site, and after a competition Will Alsop's The Cloud won, a controversial choice as it was last placed in both the architects and the public responses:

After two years work and spiralling costs, it was eventually cancelled, and instead a trio of what can only be described as 'horrible black glass lumps' were built in it's place (they are locally known as The Lego Blocks'), which did a fantastic job of destroying the sight lines of the Three Graces from the south.

At the same time, the council built the new ferry terminal and new Museum directly in front of the Three Graces, both of which are in that 'quirky' Gehry-inspired style that eschews right angles and parallel lines and were both Carbuncle Cup nominees (the Ferry Terminal won the 2009 'prize').


The next stage was the Duke Of Westminister/Grosvenor House's Liverpool One development in the Paradise St Triangle area, immediately behind the Pier Head. A large section of the south side of the city centre (including the only green space, Chavasse Park) was effectively given to one of the richest men in the country to do with what he pleased. The result was an ugly shopping mall that moved the centre of gravity of the city centre towards it and resulted in masses of empty buildings and units elsewhere, more ugly apartment buildings and hotels, loss of green space and most importantly (to me, at least) what were publically-owned streets are now private property. At the same time, The Kings Dock area immediately south of the Albert Dock was redeveloped with more soulless apartment blocks and hotels and the Echo Arena and Convention Centre (prior to this, it was the site intended for Everton's stadium before that fell through).

After that, the area immediately south of Liverpool One then came into the developer's Eye Of Sauron for redevelopment, known as the Baltic Triangle. This was largely old warehouses and light industrial units which had been occupied by some of the 'alternative' businesses - nightclubs, bars, cafes, art galleries and performance spaces. Developers started buying the land and buildings and turfing out the tenants, and again it became the home for ugly apartment blocks and wanky bars and restaurants. A lot of the tenants from there moved to the old warehouses in the 'Ten Streets' area next to the Northern Docks, and whenever Liverpool Waters does get going (Peel have been concentrating on developing the 'Wirral Waters' dockland they own on the other side of the river up until now) I can see them getting turfed out again as that area becomes attractive to developers.

What was the World Heritage site is now hemmed in from all sides by nondescript modern developments so it's no surprise that UNESCO have finally pulled the plug.

One other thing - if Everton's new stadium does get built at the proposed site at Bramley Moore Dock, I predict it's going to get some rather unsavoury nicknames as it's right next door to Unted Utilites' massive sewage treatment works at Sandon Dock (it's the terminus for the 29km main sewer along the riverfront that intercepted all the untreated outfalls into the river), and the area constantly honks of shit. I expect that's why Peel want it built there, as any residential/retail/hotel type-development on there is going to be a very hard sell.

[The Culture Bunker]

If it's any consolation to my friends down the other end of the East Lancs Road, Manchester has fallen victim to pretty much the same kind of crap development that seems to be plaguing Liverpool.

When I moved here 17 years ago, the city was in need of change, no doubt, but when I wander round the city centre these days it just seems (for want of a better word) so soulless. Huge glass towers and ugly apartment blocks going up everywhere, the sprawl of which is now spreading out West across the ship canal into Salford.

Not sure if it happened in Liverpool, but here they regenerated the Ancoats area from being a frankly often dangerous place to be after sunset into all modern apartments, bars and whatnot. However, the new residents were perhaps not aware that they'd have to deal with assorted scallies from nearby Miles Platting seeing new ample opportunities to go on the rob and other assorted illegal activities.

[JesusAndYourBush]

Can someone explain how 'city of culture' works?  I was reading something the other day about how a city had decided not to go for it because they couldn't afford the bid.  Then I tried to look into it... and apparently a 'City of culture' title isn't bestowed on a city because of, I dunno, how much culture it has... but on the size of the bid.  So basically whoever puts up the biggest bribe gets to be city of culture.  That's not very cultured is it?

Then it got me thinking about all the cities putting up bids and not getting it because they were outbid.  What happens to the bids of the failed cities.  Is someone trousering the cash or do they get it back.

Then I read something else about a city of culture desperately needing funding.  Don't they at least get the bid money back or is it being squirreled away to buy someone some gold wallpaper?

Does anyone know how it works, because at the moment it seems like a load of S4C.

[imitationleather]

As Coventry won it's fair to say it's a load of made-up bollocks.

[Goldentony]

the main legacy of capital of culture here is detailed in Buzby's excellent post. It's basically just Liverpool ONE. Total, total dogshit.

[sevendaughters]

there's a brilliant documentary called A Northern Soul about when Hull had CoC, an amazing scene where this factory worker who teaches underclass kids rap and gives them a space to record is at the 'opening' in some regeneration space wine bar full of LRB readers like me, someone drops a tray and he's the only one who goes WAAAAAAAY, cut to him looking desolate and alone outside. sorry what was the question?

[Sebastian Cobb]

As Coventry won it's fair to say it's a load of made-up bollocks.

I think Hull got a crack at it as well.

[Goldentony]

Trying to remember what 2008 was even like here, I remember getting a stern talking to at work for saying it'd be good to kick Ringo Starr up the arse and off the roof of St George's Hall when him and the Eurythmics wanker did that awful official single he did but that was 2007. 2008 actually we had a FAB Cafe which put us up there with Leeds and Manchester, and that place allowed you a lot of freedom given the time period, we pushed my mate around like a hoover on a dancefloor that looked like the teleporter from Star Trek, and later on another mate elbow dropped a tray of drinks out of someones hands and the bouncers laughed. Good days, gone.

[Bernice]

Of all the shit crooked developments that happened over the past decade or so, I actually don't mind the waterfront stuff. Don't mind the black blocks, genuinely like the museum of Liverpool, ferry terminal - who gives a fuck?

Bramley Moore Dock is a derelict shithole. They could be building the new stadium out of Farhad Moshiri's discarded cumrags and it wouldn't make it any worse. Heritage my arse. Very cigs about the UNESCO thing in general - like Capital of Culture, it seems to be given to those who can lobby the hardest, I'm not convinced it brings any great benefit and I believe it's been actively harmful to Porto, the centre of which is acres of untouchable derelict housing.

The ridiculous amount of soulless 'luxury' student accomodation, Liverpool One, the inevitable ( and fuck ugly) hollowing out of the Baltic Triangle (which was, for a time, a genuinely fun, seedy underground space reclaimed from dormant warehouses), and the fucking shameless "New Chinatown" development, which never came to fruition and seemed like a way for Joe Anderson and some proper crooks to pocket a bunch of cash - all that's far more disturbing to me.

I'm not sure any of that is to blame for Liverpool being a party town though. It's cheap (including for coke), got a lot of bars and clubs within walking distance, and can be easily got to from various shit towns across the northwest and for Irish lads looking for a big weekend off the ferry. Can't remember a time when it wasn't an absolute bacchanal in town of a weekend, though admittedly I think I'm younger than others posting here.

Also, I do think it was a fucking half-derelict shithole before all this development.

[Goldentony]

Genuinely quite glad parts of Duke St and Seel St got cleaned up given some of it was literal rubble, less so about this shit impression of Manchester both of them are doing

[Gurke and Hare]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/23/we-dont-need-unesco-listing-says-new-liverpool-heritage-chief

"We don't need it. We'd love it. It's a reputation for them; it's a reputation for us. So surely [Unesco] need to have an 11th-hour think about these things," he said.

File with "The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU, we'll be in a strong negotiating position."

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

It's a reputation for them

Yeah that's really not how it works or even close to being true.

[JamesTC]

We'll build our own world heritage status. With blackjack. And hookers.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

It's the sort of thing someone uncultured with no concept of the meaning behind UNESCO would say, so great stuff he is working as a 'Heritage Chief'.

"Once they see these new Premier Inns we've thrown up they'll change their minds"

[bgmnts]

Is all of what buzby mentions classed as 'progress'?

I don't like it.

The main appeal to me about the area I live in is the fact that Chartists stopped at a pub there and there is a nice little victorian cottage unfortunately named Jim Crow (not that Jim crow) Cottage.

Brutalism is bad enough, knowing I'd have to live near these glass monstrosities make me blood run cold. Where's the heart and the love and the community?

[Kankurette]

Of all the shit crooked developments that happened over the past decade or so, I actually don't mind the waterfront stuff. Don't mind the black blocks, genuinely like the museum of Liverpool, ferry terminal - who gives a fuck?

Bramley Moore Dock is a derelict shithole. They could be building the new stadium out of Farhad Moshiri's discarded cumrags and it wouldn't make it any worse. Heritage my arse. Very cigs about the UNESCO thing in general - like Capital of Culture, it seems to be given to those who can lobby the hardest, I'm not convinced it brings any great benefit and I believe it's been actively harmful to Porto, the centre of which is acres of untouchable derelict housing.

The ridiculous amount of soulless 'luxury' student accomodation, Liverpool One, the inevitable ( and fuck ugly) hollowing out of the Baltic Triangle (which was, for a time, a genuinely fun, seedy underground space reclaimed from dormant warehouses), and the fucking shameless "New Chinatown" development, which never came to fruition and seemed like a way for Joe Anderson and some proper crooks to pocket a bunch of cash - all that's far more disturbing to me.

I'm not sure any of that is to blame for Liverpool being a party town though. It's cheap (including for coke), got a lot of bars and clubs within walking distance, and can be easily got to from various shit towns across the northwest and for Irish lads looking for a big weekend off the ferry. Can't remember a time when it wasn't an absolute bacchanal in town of a weekend, though admittedly I think I'm younger than others posting here.

Also, I do think it was a fucking half-derelict shithole before all this development.

We have the same problem in Manchester. Seeing yet another student block of flats depresses me, especially when it's where a nice gig venue used to be.

And yes, there's always something going on - last time I was there, for an Everton Women's game, I spotted at least three hen parties and one stag.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Brutalism is bad enough

Quite effective style in limited situations, of course. Campuses suit the hulking utopian 70s futurism and beigeness more than glass blocks/clad blocks. Love a raised walkway.

To an extent, bus interchanges, theatre complexes, multistoreys.

Not as keen when they try to make people live inside them though.

[Bernice]

I was in Manchester for the first time in a few years the other day, and it struck me for the first time just how fuck ugly it is. There's a lot to be said for it as a place to go/live, but Christ is a lot of it hideous. Turns out untouchable Labour councils will greenlight the building of any old shite in any old location.

Are there any English cities that aren't totally blighted by this? Manchester and Leeds seem to have the worst of it, London's it's own distinct mess (more money and 32 boroughs making the patterns of construction quite different), but I swear everywhere I go I see the same identikit, cheapass developments just dropped all over the place, with seemingly no care for what's already there.

[buzby]

Is all of what buzby mentions classed as 'progress'?

I don't like it.

The main appeal to me about the area I live in is the fact that Chartists stopped at a pub there and there is a nice little victorian cottage unfortunately named Jim Crow (not that Jim crow) Cottage.

Brutalism is bad enough, knowing I'd have to live near these glass monstrosities make me blood run cold. Where's the heart and the love and the community?

It's 'progress' because it's bringing outside revenue in - rent from overseas students or council tax from buy-to-let apartments that will either sit empty as an investment, or be rented out for stag and hen dos or visiting football supporters as airb&bs. What they look like or whether they fit in with the surrounding area doens't matter, it's all albout the amount of units for sale or let.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/sep/23/we-dont-need-unesco-listing-says-new-liverpool-heritage-chief

File with "The EU needs the UK more than the UK needs the EU, we'll be in a strong negotiating position."

Quite funny that for the photo they couldn't find a sightline of the '3 Graces' that didn't have some part of the World Museum encroaching into the picture.

[The Culture Bunker]

It's 'progress' because it's bringing outside revenue in - rent from overseas students or council tax from buy-to-let apartments that will either sit empty as an investment, or be rented out for stag and hen dos or visiting football supporters as airb&bs. What they look like or whether they fit in with the surrounding area doens't matter, it's all albout the amount of units for sale or let.

My other half and I are looking to move to a bigger place in the next year or two, and it's telling that a lot of those horrid looking apartments along the ship canal in Manchester/Salford are marketed as "investment opportunities" and such, rather than places to live.