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"Lipstick On Your Collar" and other Dennis Potter related discussion

Started by weekender, August 05, 2005, 09:48:53 PM

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weekender

The first couple of episodes of 'Lipstick On Your Collar' are now being torrented from the usual place.  I thought it would be nice to see what everyone's opinions of this television series are, along with other Dennis Potter-related thoughts if anyone so wishes.  Here's a quick Googled summary thing for those who want a refresh:

Quote from: "some web page or other"From one of the most creative, daring, and provocative British writers, "Lipstick on Your Collar" was the last work by television writer, playwright, and screenwriter Dennis Potter, to be produced during his life. Part musical, part romantic comedy, part male fantasy, the story revolves around Private Francis Francis who has just been assigned to the British War Office, as an Army Intelligence clerk, in 1956. Private Francis begins an amorous fantasy life with blonde bombshell Sylvia Berry, who's already married... and their secret meeting leads to a shocking tragedy. Meanwhile, the War Office buzzes with rumors of a Suez Canal invasion, but the daydreaming soldiers Francis and Hopper are preoccupied with their visions of singing, dancing and beautiful women. As the British Army marches forward, a dramatic twist of fate gives the lovelorn clerks a pleasant surprise.

Now I've got only brief memories of this series, as it was broadcast twelve years ago.  For some reason, my memories are quite warm, and without going into specifics this may have been in part due to Louise Germaine.  OK, let's come clean, she was wank fodder.

With the wonderful gift of hindsight though, there's something else about this series.

The daydreaming scenes are magnificent, and when set to the fantastic 50s rock and roll music that accompanies them, seem to sum up the sheer banality of everyday life and the daydreaming nature of the characters.  As far as I can tell so far, the original 50s songs were used, and the actors were miming to those songs with such apparent ease that I can only assume that they either loved the songs or were really fucking good at what they do.

When you realise that all the scenes are all going on at the same time as the apparent collapse of the so-called 'British Empire', and with the Suez canal crisis looming in the background, it becomes more real somehow, and yet somehow the whole incredulous nature of human interaction shines through.

Now, from what I've heard about Dennis Potter, I'm never quite sure what I should make of his work.  I'm aware that he seemed to have numerous hang-ups - most notably about sexuality.  I remember billboards at the time of LOYC which showed one of the characters groping another one, which I think caused quite a bit of controversy at the time (that would be when Channel 4 was nice and daring I suppose).

Now that I'm a bit older though, and am watching the LOYC series back, it seems utterly wonderful.  On these rewatches, I was expecting a shit show with some dodgy teenage wankfoddery.  I couldn't have been more wrong, it's the second most enjoyable thing I've watched in weeks*, and I really look forward to watching each 'new' episode.  I can't recommend it enough, and I would especially recommend it to people who are better at explaining why they enjoy things so much, as I am not very good at it.

So, does anyone else have any thoughts about LOYC or Dennis Potter in general?  I've noticed there's a few other Potter works available at the moment -I think 'The Singing Detective' is available on DVD for example - worth getting hold of?

*Absolutely has been the first, one episode shy of a complete set now.  I'm sure you wanted to know that.

jutl

His popularity totally mystifies me. Apart from Blue Remembered Hills - which was about as good as a decent Play For Today - everything else I've ever seen of his is just uninvolving crap centring around wanking and easy listening classics. I can see how, in the context of the 70s and 80s its taboo-busting seemed vaguely inventive. What I can't understand is why anyone still watches the cunt.

Cerys


imitationleather

Christ on a bike, I've been desperate to rewatch this for ages!

I can barely remember anything about it from when it was originally on because I was seven at the time and the only things that really stuck in my memory was all of the sex (particuarly one bit where Roy Hudd is burying his face into Louise Germain's bosom). Ah well, what do you expect?

Like weekender I was expecting just loads of wanking opportunities but on evidence of these two episodes it's clearly far more than that. I watched The Singing Detective for the first time a while ago and to be honest it underwhelmed me a little. The storylines and songs didn't really seem to gel together as well as they do in Lipstick on your Collar and by the end I was just relieved it was finally all over. That's not to say I thought it was bad, I just found it really hard work.

Again, we need someone who knows how to explain things to post to this thread. Right now I'm absolutely gagging for the third episode to appear, hopefully it'll turn up tomorrow.

Mr. Analytical

I went through a Potter phase about a year ago and bought a looad of stuff on DVD.

Singing detective's okay but it's a bit flabby, could have been half the length and been more focussed and effective but Gambon's reputation in it is entirely justified and it's rather good drama.  Not genius but pretty good, I imagine by the standards of the day it must have been amazing.

I also watched his Cassanova which was poor.  It had its moments but it so completely failed to capture the essence of Cassanova...  he's less of a heroically perverted cad and more of a slightly lecherous university professor.

I don't think his work has aged well simply because the mainstream form of expression nowadays is genre transcendence.  His themes are repetitive and far from universal (paralysis and sexual frustration) and I don't think he stacks up well against stuff like The Sopranos or even the first season of the new Battlestar Galactica.

 It's a bit like Baddiel's spiel about Are You Being Served.  In those days you couldn't say 'pussy' on TV so it was daring and full of double entendres but now TV shows Kinga fucking herself with a wine bottle so Mrs. Slowcombe informing everyone that her pussy's all wet is not so much daring and a bone-chillingly graphic example of being given way too much information.

 Similarly in the 70's and 80's you didn't try and say intelligent things in a detective story and nobody talked about sex and violence but nowadays even Sci-Fi transcends genre and tries to be solid intelligent drama before it blows stuff up and EVERYONE talks about sex and violence so it seems rather quaint.  Like visitng a village that boasts the world's largest steam engine.

didgeripoo

Fuck. Lipstick On Your Collar was going to be my first experience of Bit Torrent ever. So I got it from UKNova. And the first 10 seconds plays and then the picture sticks and the audio carries on.

Is my file corrupt or something annoying like that? I have a cap on my broadband so can't really download it again. Why does everything go wrong? WHY?

weekender

What media player are you using?  Try VLC if you're not using it, it's never failed to play any video file I've downloaded.

didgeripoo

Quote from: "weekender"What media player are you using?  Try VLC if you're not using it, it's never failed to play any video file I've downloaded.

Ta very much weekender! Had trid evil Windows Media Player and then Winamp, but VLC seems to have done the trick.

imitationleather

Boo! This thread isn't going to sink before someone who knows how to say things about stuff comes along, is it?

I remember a while ago someone saying that Lipstick... is their favourite Potter series. Who was that? I think it may have been Jemble Fred but he's not around much anymore. Bah!

dot

TJ's a big fan, he can run his mouth, someone give him a shout. I've never checked potter out and have been meaning to for ages. I'm afraid jutl has turned me right off but if something pops up on telly I'll give it a go.

Raspberry Jam

Quote from: "dot"TJ's a big fan, he can run his mouth, someone give him a shout. I've never checked potter out and have been meaning to for ages. I'm afraid jutl has turned me right off but if something pops up on telly I'll give it a go.

Brimstone and Treacle the original one with Michael Kitchen in is a horribly good one to watch. Dark and very disturbing too.

Pennies from Heaven gets my vote also.

Lipstick on Your Collar was great. Having a google about for Louise Germaine brings up some very interesting pics indeed :)

For more Dennis Potter with Louise Germaine in try out Midnight Movie.

I'd really like to see more of his stuff on terrestrial TV. Not having digital means I missed the repeat of Blackeyes and Blue Remembered Hills.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

Quote from: "Mr. Analytical"I imagine by the standards of the day it must have been amazing.

But standards were higher back then.

oceanthroats

I love lipstick on your collar, probably enjoy it more than the singing detective. Might be something to do with my age when I first saw it, but I still enjoy it whenever I get to see it.
Something to do with the music and the fantasy moments fitting together with that period, the boredom of the foreign office, Hedges 'Bumholes!' pronouncements, the news reels at the top of every episode, that 50's street, and the various other sets and how they sort of flash in and out of each other every episode.
Francis Francis' aunt and uncle's flat, the foreign office, and the cinema, seem to be the primary locations, and then inbetween there are lovely moments such as when Hopper is at the window of his flat looking down at the street in the darkness to Unchained Melody, or when Francis is in a bookshop, trying to get a discount. 'But i'll give it a good home,' he says. 'But books are not orphans' the bookshop owner tells him.

The fantasy imaginative dance numbers always seem to explode and tear the dull moments apart. Often the music sounds as exciting as I've ever heard it. Some combination of the sound and the visuals seem to make it all as colourful and surreal as anything. Blueberry Hill sounds as exciting as any song could ever sound, as exciting as it probably sounded at the time. I don't think I'd ever really got music from that period until I saw Lipstick on your collar. Somehow the music feels deeper and richer than anything else. I don't know if it's partly the images Hopper conjures up, or if it's something to do with seeing a version of the 50's which somehow gives the music more power, but at any rate the music sparkles. Blueberry hill is more colourful than See Emily Play, and even more exciting in this.

Maybe it's the end too. The way the end just sort of ties everything up, momentarily anyway. In spite of the Suez crises and the way the older people are all worrying themselves about it, and how there's a sense that it's finally the end of the British Empire, and change is in the air, it feels like there are things to be optimistic about, or there's music and dreams and life and nude ladies with strange looking pythons and so on about the place.

My favorite part is the end of episode 2. The Platters 'My Prayer' begins, and Francis and Sylvia in biscuit tin pastoral merrie england dress by gorgeous green and pleasant house, Francis as shepherd with black dog, and all is good and well and happy, and the lyrics to my prayer are acted out, or illustrated. The combination of a very american song and a very treacley english scene seems to work in a way you'd never ever think it could work.
My Prayer is still my favorite Platters songs. Maybe one of my favorite songs.
And as corny or absurd as that scene might be, and as unimportant as it might be, I'll always remember it. For me it's somehow at the centre of the whole thing.
I actually think the series lagged as it neared the end, at least I remember thinking that, but the last episode rounded it all off nicely.
I've never understood why it's considered to be weak by so many people. It's always seemed to rich to me.

Jemble Fred

Quote from: "That Jemble Fred cunt"My opinion may not be 100% worthwhile here, because I'm an avid Potter fan, but I was very impressed with The Singing Detective movie. It's the last piece of work Potter ever did, finally realised exactly how he meant ti to be, and every single cast member gives the performance of their career. Even Mel Gibson, who I can't help but despise, is amazing in it. Plus, of course, the whole project was down to him, so this movie forced me to finally turn a blind eye to his endless offensive Anglophobia. It's fascinating to see such an enormous engorged plot cut down to the absolute basics.

I finished watching my Lipstick on Your Collar DVD last night, and although the end was as disappointing as I remember, it has so many skin-tingling moments, great performances and, of course, the best soundtrack ever, that I enjoyed it hugely – having not seen it since the last terrestrial airing. It's unbelievable that it hasn't had a proper DVD release yet, I can imagine the EWAN McGREGOR IN... covers in HMV now. The musical numbers are probably the best he achieved, brilliantly directed by Renny Rye. Although I love Pennies and TSD, in the former especially, the songs seem too muted to really come to life in the fantasy segments.

Another vote for Karaoke here, and I also thought Cold Lazarus had the most interesting vision of the future any writer has created, with the whole genetically enhanced plant chairs thingies...

Come on, Jem, say something bad about Potter....

Oh yeah, the Secret Friends film (adapted from his much better novel, Ticket To Ride) is rather boring, and misses lots of opportunities to show Frances Barber naked.

Here: http://www.cookdandbombd.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3852&highlight=lipstick

Basically, I've never disagreed with jutl more, bless him. That's a more than reasonable opinion he's got there, of course, but for fuck's sake don't let it put you off enjoying the work of the greatest screenwriter of the last century (and that's my O).

Duffy

Quote from: "Emergency Lalla Ward Ten"
Quote from: "Mr. Analytical"I imagine by the standards of the day it must have been amazing.

But standards were higher back then.
Couldn't agree more. I bought The Singing Detective DVD the week it was released, and I found it as fresh and brilliant as when it was first broadcast. I'm in the exact opposite corner to those who think it was overrated, or "alright in its day". In fact, I struggle to think of any recent British-made TV drama in its class.

Not all Potter's work was so great, of course; his dirty-old-man misogyny ruined a lot of his later stuff. I pretty much gave up on him halfway through Blackeyes, but I'll be downloading Lipstick, Lazarus and Karaoke to see what I missed.

[Edited for spelling]

jutl

Quote from: "Jemble Fred"
Basically, I've never disagreed with jutl more, bless him. That's a more than reasonable opinion he's got there, of course, but for fuck's sake don't let it put you off enjoying the work of the greatest screenwriter of the last century (and that's my O).

Well, I wish I enjoyed him more. It's not even as though I feel that I'm missing something - which frequently happens when I find something to be dreary and inconsequential which others have lauded as riveting and significant. It's all there to be seen (which is a virtue I suppose). He's not an esoteric or snobbish writer. You either accept that his various stocks-in-trade  combine to form great art, or you don't. In the latter case they really do seem like a set of sweaty tedious gimmicks.

Egged on by your praise I looked him up on imdb. I realise that I have only seen a small fraction of his works (about six TV dramas and a couple of movies) so perhaps there's a load of stuff Jem's seen and I haven't...

Quote from: "Duffy"I bought The Singing Detective DVD the week it was released, and I found it as fresh and brilliant as when it was first broadcast.

I agree entirely.

Nick

Recently read Humphrey Carpenter's biography of DP, and it becomes moderately apparent that the man spent many years effectively dealing with the same themes over and over, sometimes even rewriting the story in different forms (Singing 'Tec, Pennies, Blackeyes). But the man's control of language and pacing is staggering, and the Singing Detective is an incredible piece of work – didn't it go out on Sunday nights on BBC1 when first broadcast ? Impossible to imagine that now.

I like Lipstick (...), but think that Potter's 'musical trilogy' (Pennies, Singing D, and LOYC) peaks with the middle bit. I've never really rated Pennies (film or TV version) as the characters are pretty unsympathetic sometimes, and felt that Lipstick resolved a bit too neatly with 'the old switcheroo' element.

Think his final two works – Karaoke and Cold Lazarus – have some interesting elements, especially the multilayered aspects, though both suffer from slightly speedy conclusions, and perhaps too great an autobiographical leaning, though given their place in his life I think it's fair he should play Prospero a bit.

The Singing Detective film I thought was like a reader's digest version of the TV show, and lost a lot of depth as a result. The TV one I can re-watch and always spot something new, but one viewing of the film made me suspect that would do.
(Sudden flashback: the moment when Marlow's father stops in the woods, having lost his wife and son (to varying degrees) and lets out a howl of frustration. Makes my spine tingle every time, so well written, acted, directed, everything.)

Potter's stuff may look dated in places, and misogynist in others (can't help but think he was as scared of women as he was revolted by and contemptuous of them), but he knew how to wield words, and I defy anyone to watch his final interview with Melvyn Bragg and not be moved, if not by his passion about the power of television as a medium, then by the fact that he swigs morphine from a flask to keep the pain at bay, and that he talks frankly of his cancer and impending death

Just my little contribution. I think the man was bordering on genius, though wildly flawed in many ways.

jutl

Quote from: "Nick"but he knew how to wield words, and I defy anyone to watch his final interview with Melvyn Bragg and not be moved, if not by his passion about the power of television as a medium,

I agree wholeheartedly there too. His interviews were always extraordinary. I found very little of that fire and originality in his written work though.

Blumf


bithez

Quote from: "Nick"I like Lipstick (...), but think that Potter's 'musical trilogy' (Pennies, Singing D, and LOYC) peaks with the middle bit. I've never really rated Pennies (film or TV version) as the characters are pretty unsympathetic sometimes, and felt that Lipstick resolved a bit too neatly with 'the old switcheroo' element.

pennies is probably my favourite potter, for pretty much the same reason - it's obvious that arthur is a total prick, but watching it i can't help but love him. an awful lot of potter's work revolves around making horrible men come off as sympathetic. also i'm a sucker for anything borderline supernatural, so the accordian man struck just the right chord with me.

the dvd commentaries for PFH are interesting. kenith trodd seems to be pretty unimpressed with cheryl campbell as both an actor and a person, but very pleased with gemma craven. my opinion is the exact opposite, i thought that campbell was brilliant and that craven was a bit weak except in the dance numbers.

Nick

I haven't heard the commentaries, but I share your surprise; I think Campbell's very good generally – saw her and Derek Jacobi in Macbeth about a decade ago, and it was great stuff.

Mr. Analytical

I still think that Singing Detective's overly flabby.  The first episode's excellent and it then kind of fades and the ending's better.  It has a feel of unfocussed self-indulgeance to it... Potter being allowed to go off down a number of quasi-autobiographical alleyways that are played with for a bit and then abandonned without advancing plot, being particularly interesting or clever.

The film's interesting because I tend to agree with a lot of the stuff they cut out.  All the endless shots of the boy sitting in a tree and the father singing and the relationship of the parents.

What I didn't like was getting rid of the other patients, the desire for the therapy to "make sense" of him which is a very American trait... you can't have an anti-hero in US film or TV anymore without his eccentricities being catalogued and explained away (not just the Sopranos but also Batman Begins) and the fact that they made it about sex... which I think is a bit of betrayal given how autobiographical SD was.

As for TV being better at the time, I refer the honourable gentlemen to well... everything.  TV's way better now than it was in those days, there's way more shit but there's also way more good stuff simply because of the huge amount of content that's out there.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten

Quote from: "Mr. Analytical"I still think that Singing Detective's overly flabby.  The first episode's excellent and it then kind of fades and the ending's better.  It has a feel of unfocussed self-indulgeance to it... Potter being allowed to go off down a number of quasi-autobiographical alleyways that are played with for a bit and then abandonned without advancing plot, being particularly interesting or clever.

The meandering is what I liked about it, though. I hate the idea of it being 'stripped down' and made 'punchier' (or - ulp - 'relevant') for 'modern audiences'. As The Mumbler mentioned once, why is so much drama dialogue entirely functional these days? What happened to weird detours?

I haven't the energy for a 'Was TV better in the past?' debate, but something like Shameless wouldn't have been elevated to Potter-esque status 20 years ago. It would have been seen as a throwaway comedy drama. Nowadays, everything has to be seen as worthy of Potter, even when the content isn't remotely on the same level. People call Russell T Davies a Potter-esque genius figure, rather than someone who's simply above average ('considering what else is on'). That's what I mean by standards being higher back then.

Interesting that you should mention Shameless as this was a show that I deliberately avoided for ages; I usually detest those kind of working class, kitchen sink dramas, but the other day a friend of mine showed me an episode and I really liked it. Unlike most shows/films of their ilk (Mike Leigh and Ken Loach, I'm looking at you), this wasn't boring crap but actually a quirky and strangely life-affirming show.

Anyway- back on topic. I absolutely loved "Brimstone and Treacle" when I saw it. "Pennies From Heaven" is one of those shows that I think everyone should see once- I'm not a major fan of it really but I'd always recommend it to people. Have yet to catch "The Singing Detectibe" but obviously its reputation precedes it. I remember watching "Cold Lazarus" on transmission and really liking it but I haven't seen it since- is a DVD release forthcoming? By far my favourite piece of Potter's writing is "Blue Remembered Hills", though- I remember seeing Steve Coogan in a performance of this years ago at the Barbican and nearly being brought to tears by the end.

What does everyone think of Potter's other forays into Hollywood? I have a real soft spot for the Steve Martin "Pennies From Heaven". I haven't seen the Sting version of "Brimstone and Treacle" but I gather it's not as good as the BBC TV original? Checking the IMDB I was surprised to learn that Potter adapted his own teleplays into film scripts, so I guess no-one can accuse those Hollywood hacks of butchering his masterpieces. And also that he wrote the screenplay for "Gorky Park". You learn something new everyday.

Mr. Analytical

ELW10 - Meandering's one thing... I'm a big fan of meandering dialogues and plots but SD meanders to the point of self-indulgeance, by which I mean that numerous scenes and sections don't serve plot, character construction, backstory and aren't even necessarily that entertaining but they're in there because well... Potter wanted them in there.  It's still brilliant telly but it's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination.

Obviously everything nowadays is shite when you compare it to just the work of Dennis Potter.  When you compare it to other 80's fare like the 3 hours of 3-2-1 on saturday nights and Surprise Surprise then it looks brilliant.

Davies is a solid mainstream dramatist, he's broken some taboos and produced some memorable popular drama.  He's no modern day Potter but then it's not as if anyone in the 80's apart from Potter was either.

The Mumbler

Quote from: "Mr. Analytical"He's no modern day Potter but then it's not as if anyone in the 80's apart from Potter was either.

Alan Bleasdale, Alan Plater, Alan Bennett - and those are just the Alans.

Emergency Lalla Ward Ten