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Deathloop

Started by AngryGazelle, August 02, 2021, 03:52:55 PM

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Inspector Norse

They've said it'll arrive on XBox late next year, which is fine by me because I won't have a next-gen console until next summer at the earliest I reckon.

Timothy

Does Deathloop make good use of the Dualsense?

madhair60

Quote from: Chedney Honks on September 15, 2021, 06:21:57 PM
Looks absolutely crap, but hope you guys enjoy it.

its good mate

Chedney Honks

Just can't imagine a game doing the same thing over and over again being any good.

Zetetic

Most games involve some sort of experiential loop, not least some of the ones you've seemed very enamoured with. For example, Dark Souls gameplay notably has a heavy focus on repetition - albeit of a form and to an end that I don't personally care for.

I think there's a difference with a timeloop as a narrative device, and a very static loop of experience in actually playing the game. Having not played Deathloop, I can't speak to it, but The Outer Wilds is a neat example of changing your experience of a small but varied environment by developing a combination of your gameplay skills, you understanding of how to navigate it, and your understanding of what any of it means.

Zetetic

I guess there's a similarity to the Metroidvania discussion, about whether you can change how someone plays through a place/time by having them bring something new to it - whether that's the sort of explicit additions to mechanics that Metroidvanias emphasise or something about the player themselves (skills, practical understanding, narrative knowledge).

Chedney Honks

Quote from: Zetetic on September 16, 2021, 05:25:31 PM
Most games involve some sort of experiential loop, not least some of the ones you've seemed very enamoured with.

Yeah, basically all the games I play are absurdly repetitive and I usually play them in an absurdly repetitive way. It was a deliberately dumb joke at my own expense.

madhair60

i got the joke :) im clevr

Zetetic

Ah. Sorry.

I would be interested to know if Deathloop mostly relies on developing the player's skills or knowledge, or if there's some mechanical aspect to improving through the loops. (But I'm trying to avoid watching people play it...)

TrenterPercenter

Btw just to say had some vouchers for my bday so I got on this a couple of days after release.  Not had much time to play it but what I have is really good.  There is a reason it is getting 10s and it is because it has tried to do something new and very interesting.   It plays very much like Dishonoured but combine that with The Witness/Hitman and you are close.

There is a mission in the first Dishonoured where you have assassinate someone at a party - if you enjoyed that (and I thought is was highlight of the game) well this is the game of that really.

Quote from: Zetetic on September 16, 2021, 08:09:49 PM
I would be interested to know if Deathloop mostly relies on developing the player's skills or knowledge, or if there's some mechanical aspect to improving through the loops. (But I'm trying to avoid watching people play it...)

Knowledge is the big thing and it's great! you are essentially having to work out what is going on how to track down your enemies which the added twist that this is all happening in one day that you are looping through (that means different things happen at different times of the day in different areas - there are four areas and four times; so really there are 16 "levels").  Its rouge-like but in a different manner to normal as you learn stuff on each run (and there is a lot to learn) a bit like Groundhog Day you learn where traps and enemies are going to be and gather information; but you can also save items if you get enough residuum (think souls) that will stay with you through your loops (and in this some items might give you skills).

It's really good and very clever; I imagine this will be a big hit - the people that are moaning about it basically are upset it isn't a standard FPS it is a FPS puzzler I guess.

bgmnts

Cheers for letting me know how good it is now I have to wait ages for a good game finally.

You bastards!

Chedney Honks

Interesting perspective, Trent.

Most of what I've read says that it's fun enough, great voice work, but entirely fails to live up to the concept they missold. It spoonfeeds you to fuck and is linear as a cunt. Requires zero player creativity, just the ability to do as you're told in sequence, with added patronisation if you dither.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Chedney Honks on September 21, 2021, 08:11:59 PM
Interesting perspective, Trent.

Most of what I've read says that it's fun enough, great voice work, but entirely fails to live up to the concept they missold. It spoonfeeds you to fuck and is linear as a cunt. Requires zero player creativity, just the ability to do as you're told in sequence, with added patronisation if you dither.

I'd say that is complete rubbish.

I've noticed these criticisms and they really do sound like people that either haven't played the game or just don't "get" what the game is trying to do.

First of this linear stuff - complete bullshit; you've got 8 bosses to kill; which you can do in any order you like and in lots of different ways (it's just the same as Dishonoured in this sense that each level has multiple ways to go with things to do/or not do that might assist you in your goals); each area is open-world so again getting across the map has multiple routes  - it's more open world than Dishonoured or Prey but it isn't true sandbox and it shouldn't be (hard to explain why without giving too much away).  I took a gamble on this because I saw 10/10 reviews and then people getting the hump about it; really glad I did because seeing these "linear" comments can't be genuine. 

Also no idea about the spoon-feeding; it was a little bit dull and off for the first 10 minutes but this is explaining the loop; it's basically the tutorial.  After that I barely know what is going on but in a good way as you trying to work out the mysteries in the world.  Basically you have to read and use lateral thinking - I honestly think this has pissed people off (well that plus console wars and the fact the two main characters are black).  It's great.

None of what you have said rings true even slightly and I mean as in they don't seem to match up to this game.

It is also a complete work of art; I've heard some people slagging off the graphics - they are good and it has that Arkane stylisms - it is massively impressive to look at (you can see all parts for island in some views - and it gives you a sense of worldliness like dark souls).  I've got some legitimate criticisms of the game but I'll spoiler them
Spoiler alert
moving between areas via the tunnels - kind of your nexus; could have been better and they could have made a few more abilities etc.. but seriously this isn't a big deal, I also think I prefer the drab dishonoured style rather than eternalist enemies - though they are great characters and quite funny; they should have kept the karma stuff from dishonoured also
[close]
none of them are this linear/zero creativity.....nah seems totally off.  It's a blast.  I'd highly recommend it if puzzling, stealth and exploration are your things - if you want a standard FPS get on the COD shite asap.

Chedney Honks

Cheers for expanding. It's not something I expect will be up my street, but I appreciate the reply. I generally find the Arkane games unsatisfying and I don't tend to enjoy first-person games full stop, besides some Battlefield. I did think about picking it up though because I'm not playing much else at the moment besides revisiting Dark Souls 2, and there are fuck all decent games out.

I was genuinely interested in your perspective because what I read on Resetera was mostly disappointment from people who have finished it. I find Era to be full of wankers, like almost all gaming communities, so it was good to read a counterpoint.

It's something I'll possibly pick up in a sale because I don't really like immersive sims, nor the Arkane aesthetic or writing, but mostly I've not got a lot of interest in games at the moment. That said, it was entertaining to read your experience and it's taken me from no interest to something I'll defo check out in in the sale. Cheers.

TrenterPercenter

I'd say if weren't keen on Dishonoured then definitely pick up later. (have you tried Prey? that might be something to try in the meantime as should be cheap)

I think the contention people have is that it isn't a "perfect" game so why is it getting a "perfect score" I think this is because it is genuinely trying to do something different and it should be encouraged - if people had stuck 9 on it then I don't think there would have been a problem.  I don't think it is better than Returnal fwiw but it's so different it is hard to compare; it is easy to see how this game will bring some people immense joy.  Another thing I'd say is it isn't hard in the normal sense of the word; but like Dishonoured if you are trying to be completionist and carry out assassinations certain ways you are going to have to work for it.  If you play this game like an FPS; running and gunning all the way to the marker you are never going to the get the most out of it.

madhair60

Quote from: Chedney Honks on September 21, 2021, 09:37:26 PMthere are fuck all decent games out.

Cruis'n Blast just came out!

Timothy

Any advice for new players? I started this yesterday and am not sure I'm playing it right.

Spoiler alert
I have killed three visionairs. Apparently there is a book with ways to kill them but I got two of them killed by turrets and with one of them I didn't even know he was in the room because I hacked the turret through a rather small window and suddenly got a trophy.
[close]

Feels like I am not playing this right because as of now it just seems like a stealthy shooter without the creative ways of killing that I enjoyed in Dishonored.

Something isnt clicking and I am not sure what.

TrenterPercenter

Hmmm I've not really been able to play much of it but there
Spoiler alert
is definitely a way of decompressing the whole lab in the complex that will kill everyone in it
[close]
.  I think there might be some issues depending on which order you go about things as I think you can miss information that you need to do different things at different times/places
Spoiler alert
it is a bit disappointing but I'm not sure you can poison people I don't know though not got to far
[close]
.

Thing I would say is just remember you might have killed two visionaries but they are not dead; they are still alive as soon as the next loop starts so killing a boss isn't like killing a boss in a normal game, which is what I was saying about these criticisms of it being linear not making sense.

Chedney Honks

Have you played many roguelikes, Trent? Not a loaded question or gotcha. Just that this does seem quite narrow compared to the pre-release marketing. Having read more and watched some midgame footage, it doesn't appear that there's anything novel about it from a gameplay or structural perspective. I expected something closer to Hitman but it doesn't seem to offer anything like that kind of freedom. Not a problem if it wasn't intended that way, and it's daft when people criticise a game for what was only ever in their head, but the marketing and hype suggested more diverse and creative options than the narrow solutions available.

I will pick it up, anyway. I'm going to give Death Stranding a proper go first but I'll get it next.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: Chedney Honks on September 26, 2021, 09:20:29 PM
Have you played many roguelikes, Trent? Not a loaded question or gotcha. Just that this does seem quite narrow compared to the pre-release marketing. Having read more and watched some midgame footage, it doesn't appear that there's anything novel about it from a gameplay or structural perspective. I expected something closer to Hitman but it doesn't seem to offer anything like that kind of freedom. Not a problem if it wasn't intended that way, and it's daft when people criticise a game for what was only ever in their head, but the marketing and hype suggested more diverse and creative options than the narrow solutions available.

I will pick it up, anyway. I'm going to give Death Stranding a proper go first but I'll get it next.

I don't really get the gaming lingo.  You mean roguelikes i.e. you die and start again (Dark Souls, Hades etc..) if so yes it is my preferred genre I think.   I'm also not sure on the pre-release stuff I'm not someone that follows games (I also don't buy many probably 2-3 a year) so I've probably missed some of the hype.

I think you need to define gameplay or structural perspective if you are talking about how it plays i.e. technically then no their isn't but if we are talking how the game plays i.e. proceeds then it is quiet novel to me.  Ah I think I might have just realised
your roguelike comment is on a misunderstanding from me not explaining things properly.

In Darks Souls you die and the boss and enemies return you go back to the boss.  In Deathloop you have to kill all the bosses in one day (loop); not one life (though if you die you restart the loop) as you go along you collect information which you retain which gives you clues as to how you might be able to kill all 8 in one day/loop as you can't do it all in one go because the bosses are in different places at different times (sometimes unreachable in the same place at the same time) i.e. if there were 2 bosses in different areas at each time point you could kill them all in one day; but this isn't the case some bosses are doing things and are in other areas so you have to do things that change the course of the loop i.e. change what is going to happen in the day to actually complete it.  You can't leave an area without time moving on; you are constrained by this and always moving forward through the day.

That seems quite unique to me as a concept.

Zetetic

I don't think that Dark Souls is generally counted as a "roguelike" - deaths don't really involve a reset of a "run" and the lack of randomisation means that it doesn't treat player knowledge in the same way

But then most timeloop games don't strongly resemble roguelikes either, so perhaps I'm missing the point.

Yeah, sounds like deathloop is more like cruise for a corpse, dead rising, that sort of thing.

It's definitely not a roguelike, they are all turn based.
It's definitely not a rogeulite because it doesn't have procedural generation.

I think it's because if you die, you restart from the beginning, you know, like what used to happen in all games before they became mollycoddling interactive movies for morons? That's what's confusing the dolts.

TrenterPercenter

roguelikes and roguelites - I've no idea.

Anyway I've not played any time-loop games before so perhaps this isn't new and you should all avoid it.  I buy about 3 games a year tops (so far Returnal and now this and I took 6 months to complete Returnal) so don't take my word for anything when it comes to this stuff.

Zetetic

I think it's probably silly to insist on essential characteristics for any kind of "-like". "Like" means a resemblance, and things can resemble each other or family of things in different ways.

But I do think there is a qualitative difference in how player and player-character development happens between timeloop games (which are clearly a genre in themselves, being explored in different ways) and roguelikes.

QuoteI think it's because if you die, you restart from the beginning
Although I think the point with timeloop games is that the "restarting" has a different quality, and are less fundamentally about 'losing'.

Zetetic

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 27, 2021, 11:49:03 AM
Anyway I've not played any time-loop games before so perhaps this isn't new and you should all avoid it.
I think your posts are interesting, as someone who might play the game sooner or later, and I'm glad that you're making them.

I think that Arkane's work is mostly about exploring the interactions of mechanics (unsurprisingly, given the emphasis on immersive sims) rather than novelty.

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 27, 2021, 11:49:03 AM
roguelikes and roguelites - I've no idea.

Anyway I've not played any time-loop games before so perhaps this isn't new and you should all avoid it.  I buy about 3 games a year tops (so far Returnal and now this and I took 6 months to complete Returnal) so don't take my word for anything when it comes to this stuff.

Sorry, Trenter, I wasn't having a go at you, more the sort of gaming forum twat who'll just vomit up buzzwords randomly when describing a game they're playing.
Oh, they'll be pedantic when someone uses a word wrong, but they're allowed to play fast and loose with random genre terms.

"Oh wow, you're gonna love this, it's a lot like *some game they mistakenly think is obscure and will give them kudos*, it's the best moba I've played since darksouls!

Quote from: Zetetic on September 27, 2021, 12:01:10 PMI think it's probably silly to insist on essential characteristics for any kind of "-like". "Like" means a resemblance, and things can resemble each other or family of things in different ways.

No, they're accepted genre terms, they're being used as shorthand to quickly convey the games main mechanics to other people. If you use them incorrectly, you may as well not use them.

Calling this game a roguelike makes exactly the same amount of sense as calling mario a real time strategy game.
"Ah, but I strategically bounce on mushroom heads in real time"

Who's that youtube lad who always sounds like he's whining and asking you lots of questions? I watched random bits of his video at launch and didn't like the sound of any of it. I love a good first person shooter, but this didn't sound worth my time at all.

edit: That's him, gman - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuwVZkgDkmM

HamishMacbeth

Yeah, without being a compares-everything-to-dark-souls guy, the timeloop mechanic is more like Dark Souls's resetting enemies than, say, 12 Minutes where the idea is actually to memorise where everything is going to be at a specific time and exploit it. Your goal is more to find ways to make permanent changes that make your job easier, or find info that unlocks shortcuts, than to just memorise the loop over and over again until you get it perfectly.

I'm liking the game a lot, and I think what I appreciate about it is that you *can* wing it, discover stuff, memorise things, piece it all together, but if you want a more straightforward AAA experience, you can also just follow questlines that will carry you through the important bits of the loop, then store the info for when you're ready to make your final run.

Zetetic

Quote from: ImmaculateClump on September 27, 2021, 12:10:18 PM
Calling this game a roguelike makes exactly the same amount of sense as calling mario a real time strategy game.
I agree - but not because it fails to meet a single condition on a checklist, but because it fails to resemble games that are generally agreed to be roguelikes (and resembles many games that are generally agreed not to be) in many ways that we think are relevant.

Yeah, yeah, it wasn't a photo finish. It's obvious to most of us, but games journalist still find it tricky.
I was just trying to quickly say why, in a guess who sort of way, it clearly didn't belong to either of those genres. He hasn't got a beard and he hasn't got glasses.

I'll tell you what you will like if you DO fancy a roguelite first person shooter, and that's Gunfire Reborn. It's great solo, you don't need to play with other people - https://store.steampowered.com/app/1217060/Gunfire_Reborn/

TrenterPercenter

No offence taken guys - I was just pointing out the limits of my knowledge on these things.  Hopefully I'll get to play a bit more of Deathloop on the weekend if I can get off CAB and get on with my work : )