Vicar sews his lips up in anti-Murdoch protest

[Chedney Honks]

Guy is going to feel like a mug this morning when it's time for breakfast and he's starving and he remembers ohhhh I sewed my lips up in anti-Murdoch protest because of course I did.

[Replies From View]

It would be interesting for him to sew his lips to a fray bentos and then slurp really hard

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Sorry to be a downer but shouldn't this be considered alongside self-harm? In the sense that the act of doing that to yourself regardless of context shows you are not a well person and need help.

Fine line between bravery and madness, so they say. I can't help thinking that if a teenager did this rather than a white middle aged man with a dog collar they would get sectioned, even if it was also claimed as a protest.

[Cuellar]

Loads of cunts have sewn their mouths shut without getting sectioned, calm down.

[Zetetic]

Sorry to be a downer but shouldn't this be considered alongside self-harm? In the sense that the act of doing that to yourself regardless of context shows you are not a well person and need help.

I don't think that's an entirely sensible response to classical forms of self-injury, per se, let alone something with a clear extrinsic purpose.

Would you put self-tattoing in to this bucket? Piercing your own ears? Playing rugby?

I can't help thinking that if a teenager did this rather than a white middle aged man with a dog collar they would get sectioned

That would be a gross abuse of detention under the Mental Health Act, likely causing a great deal of harm to the person involved. (Granted the second of these isn't generally a bar to the state's use of force.)

[Replies From View]

Fine line between bravery and madness, so they say. I can't help thinking that if a teenager did this rather than a white middle aged man with a dog collar they would get sectioned, even if it was also claimed as a protest.

It seems more remarkable (potentially senile, but being a vicar means he can get away with the "God's spunk is up my anus and this is the side effect" excuse) for an older person to do it.  Teenagers get up to all kinds of wacky shit - no one would bat an eyelid if one of them did this.  It wouldn't stand out amongst all the other tiktoks out there, and certainly wouldn't make the news.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

That would be a gross abuse of detention under the Mental Health Act, likely causing a great deal of harm to the person involved. (Granted the second of these isn't generally a bar to the state's use of force.)

Ok, well whatever would normally be done, not specifically and definitely that.

I don't think that's an entirely sensible response to classical forms of self-injury, per se, let alone something with a clear extrinsic purpose.

Would you put self-tattoing in to this bucket? Piercing your own ears? Playing rugby?

Depends what the tattoo/piercing was, what it was for, where, and the level of skill possessed and the mental and physical state of the person doing it. Too many vagaries to give a clear answer.

Regarding playing rugby, there is no reasonable expectation of certainly sustaining anywhere close to that level of injury and pain during a rugby game, only a risk of doing so, which makes that unviable as a comparison.

We are looking at self-harm as a political protest which is probably the only safe category within examples can be compared. Each is vastly different. Something like hunger strike in prison is usually, though not always, about achieving a specific narrow objective in the short term. Setting yourself on fire is straightforward martyrdom.

Not sure where this one fits but the particularly macabre nature of it seems irrational, both in that it is deeply insufficient (even on a personal level, this will be forgotten about by next week) and yet equally over the top in what he has chosen to do. It flags up health and safeguarding issues basically.

[chveik]

world is fucked

[Buelligan]

I don't see it as irrational at all.  His point is that Murdoch has a stranglehold on free speech. Murdoch is sewing our mouths shut. 

If his acts were Art, rather than political, would that be more rational?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_performance_art

[chveik]

It seems more remarkable (potentially senile, but being a vicar means he can get away with the "God's spunk is up my anus and this is the side effect" excuse) for an older person to do it.

truly not the actions of a 'senile' person

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

I don't see it as irrational at all.  His point is that Murdoch has a stranglehold on free speech. Murdoch is sewing our mouths shut. 

If his acts were Art, rather than political, would that be more rational?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_performance_art

I appreciate through reading the news stories what the stated purpose of this was. The question of rationality is not whether the artistic effect matches the original idea (it does) but whether the actions to bring that about (mutilation, self-harm) are rational and proportionate. I at least think that is contentious and should be subject to debate, in that debate I  start off inclined to think it is irrational.

Given his Christian faith, he feels suffering is redemptive, and following Jesus' teachings. I suppose I agree with many of those teachings but not individual body mutilation as a protest about a macro scale/nebulous subject, art or otherwise. I think that is deeply irrational and a terrible example to set to others. When people act deeply irrationally, set a bad example to others and harm themselves in the process they are a concern and a risk, there should be steps taken to ensure their immediate health and rehabilitation.

I am also inclined to believe performance art is always political in the sense that any point being made in whatever way adds to a cultural discussion and human development. That doesn't make it alright to unilaterally fuck your face up, whether you're an adult or not. It can be both a pithy protest and a concerning act of self-harm.

[Buelligan]

It doesn't matter whether you believe extreme performance art to be political or not.  The point is, it's a recognised "normal" thing that humans engage in and therefore evidence that people who are not out of their minds can choose to mutilate themselves and still be regarded as sane.  Whether you or I, personally, think that's nice or not.

If we're going to lock up people because we have quibbles about whether their choices are wholly positive, we're gonna need a bigger boat. 

[Elderly Sumo Prophecy]

Won't he have scars from this? It'll look like he's got acne round his mouth.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

It doesn't matter whether you believe performance art to be political or not.  The point is, it's a recognised "normal" thing that humans engage in and therefore evidence that people who are not out of their minds can choose to mutilate themselves and still be regarded as sane.  Whether you or I, personally, think that's nice or not.

If we're going to lock up people because we have quibbles about whether their choices are wholly positive, we're gonna need a bigger boat.

I don't think that self-harm as part of performance art is something a significant number of people engage in.

If the argument is that their presence alone justifies the act, I find the logic incomprehensible. A culture exists and so it is automatically justified whether we like it or not? Is a culture that keeps human chattels sane?

I simply think if people profoundly mutilate and hurt themselves as a performative statement there should be at a minimum the opportunity through a critical moment being reached where that act can breakthrough and achieve lasting results, for them or others or the cause they care about, or some scenario where it would be a last resort. In other words, in order to leave the lasting impression that the individual is acting rationally. It is clear to any bystander that was not the case with this man and that can be acknowledged without trampling over his noble intentions.

[steve98]

Won't he have scars from this? It'll look like he's got acne round his mouth.

If Jesus could take bein' nailed to a cross surely the Vic can take a few needle-marks on his lips? Fuck's sake.

[darby o chill]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_performance_art

In 1993, Flanagan appeared in the video for the Danzig song "It's Coming Down". In the uncensored version of the video (near the ending), Flanagan pierces his upper and lower lips together and then he hammers a nail through the head of his penis before bleeding on the lens of the camera recording him.

Oh right.

[Buelligan]

I don't think that self-harm as part of performance art is something a significant number of people engage in.

If the argument is that their presence alone justifies the act, I find the logic incomprehensible. A culture exists and so it is automatically justified whether we like it or not? Is a culture that keeps human chattels sane?

I simply think if people profoundly mutilate and hurt themselves as a performative statement there should be at a minimum the opportunity through a critical moment being reached where that act can breakthrough and achieve lasting results, for them or others or the cause they care about, or some scenario where it would be a last resort. In other words, in order to leave the lasting impression that the individual is acting rationally. It is clear to any bystander that was not the case with this man and that can be acknowledged without trampling over his noble intentions.

A significant enough number for it to be its own art form with its own history.  A significant enough group with a significant enough audience to indicate that it is not the sole province of lunatics.

This has nothing at all to do with saying if enough people do a thing, it's justified.  It has to do with saying - if a significant number of people accepted as sane do a thing, one cannot reasonably use that thing as an indicator of insanity and automatically lock them away.

That's the kind of trick evil authoritarian states use to suppress dissent.

Our society if full of people who do things that we don't like or we feel are dangerous (as Z already mentioned) or cause harm themselves, what kind of society locks people up for drinking too much, having "too many" piercings, not eating their veg?

[Shit Good Nose]

If Jesus could take bein' nailed to a cross surely the Vic can take a few needle-marks on his lips? Fuck's sake.

Plus his lips will be resurrected of course.

[Replies From View]

truly not the actions of a 'senile' person

I am merely referring to the 'older' vs 'younger' binary on this more generally.  It would be less remarkable for a younger person to sew their mouth shut; we've all seen enough Jackass to know it would be a fairly mundane procedure for people of a certain type, even if it's still shocking.

[All Surrogate]

I simply think if people profoundly mutilate and hurt themselves as a performative statement there should be at a minimum the opportunity through a critical moment being reached where that act can breakthrough and achieve lasting results, for them or others or the cause they care about, or some scenario where it would be a last resort. In other words, in order to leave the lasting impression that the individual is acting rationally. It is clear to any bystander that was not the case with this man and that can be acknowledged without trampling over his noble intentions.

I'm not sure I understand quite what you're saying, but I think I disagree. You seem to be arguing that this kind of activity can only be countenanced if there's "lasting results", by which I think you mean unambiguous and identifiable results.

But I think that's much too strict a test. If this guy thought that doing this would suddenly wake everyone up and cause a revolution, then yes, he would be irrational. But it's entirely possible he recognised that it would not have such a dramatic effect, would not even have a signficant or "lasting result", but that the result, as minor as it would likely be, was sufficient to warrant this act. As has been pointed out, would a stiff letter have garnered this much attention?

I'm aware this event is already old news, and that the ostensible effect will be small, but these things accrete. If I look at the 'climate movement', I see a history of small pushes which have built up to create a significant force. There's a long way to go, of course, and a range of antagonistic forces to be dealt with, but I find it hard to discount the importance of 'publicity' like this, in the aggregate and over time.

On a somewhat tangential point, in terms of the limits of personal autonomy, I see a relation to sado-masochism. I take a very 'liberal' position on this: if adults want to experience pain or indeed physical damage, then the legal point of departure should be 'let them do it'. From there, you can add in limitations and caveats, but I would be hesitant to immediately label it irrational simply because it's something most people wouldn't like to indulge in themselves.

[thenoise]

Won't he have scars from this? It'll look like he's got acne round his mouth.

More likely infection, since he seems to have used his wife's darning needle and some thread he found in a box under the stairs.

[falafel]

Said?

I've sewn my lips shut as a protest

No you haven't

Yes I have

Take your hand away from your mouth

No

[Replies From View]

Not being able to eat or drink would be a bit of an annoying side effect of this.


Also a student make-up artist could have created the same effect without hurting him or leaving him with permanent scars.  He strikes me as an impulsive man who doesn't consider multiple options before diving in.

[Chedney Honks]

This old cunt dead yet?

[thenoise]

Not being able to eat or drink would be a bit of an annoying side effect of this.

His Sunday sermon will be even more boring than usual too.  Good job nobody listens to them!

[Buelligan]

Yeah.  Well, they don't let vicars use sexual images of young women or salacious lies to get people interested. 

[steve98]

His Sunday sermon will be even more boring than usual too.  Good job nobody listens to them!

He could hum All Things Bright And Beautiful, through his nose? Try it, it's really very pleasant. Do it jauntily.

[Paul Calf]

Yeah.  Well, they don't let vicars use sexual images of young women or salacious lies to get people interested. 

I would go to church if there were sexual images of salacious lies, just to see them. I admit that.

[Replies From View]

He could hum All Things Bright And Beautiful, through his nose? Try it, it's really very pleasant. Do it jauntily.

What if he hits the natural frequency of the threads in his lips?

[idunnosomename]

Consider how annoying i find a single mouth ulcer, I certainly won't be doing this anytime soon!