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Considering veganism

Started by Bigfella, August 02, 2021, 07:47:03 PM

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thenoise

Try some vegan meals online, go to some vegan restaurants, etc. Best to learn to cook new things rather than 'substitute', at least, not until you are ready to completely take the plunge.

Best veggie sausages are Cauldron Lincolnshire BTW (the Cumberland are similar but too peppery. Worth a try if you love pepper).

Beagle 2

Quote from: Rizla on August 02, 2021, 11:03:38 PM
Don't just learn to love tofu, become overly friendly with lentils and chickpeas. Get a copy of this - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Eastern-Vegetarian-Cooking-Madhur-Jaffrey/dp/0099777207 for the pancake section alone. Mung dal poora, spicy delicious tofu, thank me later - I even made her chickpeas recipe tonight; I am currently letting off like a baboon.

Thanks for this, just ordered it!

My wife went veggie a couple of months back. I haven't declared myself as so but I'm really not arsed about meat... except for curries. I've tried so many amazing vegetarian curry dishes but if it's a bog standard takeaway you're looking at paneer (okay but let's face it basically just shite) or a "vegetable curry" which I always feel is cooked with contempt as the main spice. We do alright with home cooked stuff but I know there's a whole other world there I'm missing out on.

A world I am about to enter like the fucking lawnmower man.

Kankurette

Cauldron also do some lovely teriyaki marinaded tofu.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: Beagle 2 on August 02, 2021, 11:57:24 PM
"vegetable curry" which I always feel is cooked with contempt as the main spice.

Which is usually little more than the house base "gravy" with some basic herbs and spices and variable heat.  Exactly the same stuff you would get as a side sauce accompanying a tandoori mixed grill.  That's why one of my mates always goes for the veggie option of an actual (takeaway) curry dish like tikka masala or madras or whatever rather than the generic "Vegetable Curry" menu option, because then at least you're getting a proper curry sauce, just with veg instead of meat (although we do regularly say to him that in most places they'll just use the same pots and pans that have just had chicken or lamb cooking in them, but it's up to him innit).

Rizla

Quote from: Beagle 2 on August 02, 2021, 11:57:24 PM
Thanks for this, just ordered it!

Yes! You won't regret it, it's superb. I've used it almost daily for over 25 years. I did her baba ganoush just last week, that never gets old.  And speaking of aubergines, this fucker is the bomb.

Buelligan

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on August 03, 2021, 12:22:55 AM
Which is usually little more than the house base "gravy" with some basic herbs and spices and variable heat.  Exactly the same stuff you would get as a side sauce accompanying a tandoori mixed grill.  That's why one of my mates always goes for the veggie option of an actual (takeaway) curry dish like tikka masala or madras or whatever rather than the generic "Vegetable Curry" menu option, because then at least you're getting a proper curry sauce, just with veg instead of meat (although we do regularly say to him that in most places they'll just use the same pots and pans that have just had chicken or lamb cooking in them, but it's up to him innit).

Can't speak for all vegans or vegetarians - I once knew a complete showboater who, in another person's mother's house, aggressively refused to eat the specially made vegetarian pizza offered because it had been cooked in an oven that had been used for meat in the past - but most vegetarians and vegans (I include myself in this), don't do it for power or even allergy, we do it as a personal thing and we'd like to just eat our meal in peace without having to explain or be made into the focus of group discussion.  Bit like sexual preference or politics, sure, some of us might take it to extremes, want to ram it down your throats, most of us,  though, we just want to speak about it when we choose and be left to get on with it the rest of the time, like everyone else.

I do it because I realised that, to me anyway, there's an animal genocide going on that makes the Shoah look like a blip, I'm not just following orders.  Compassion is the bedrock of socialism and civilisation.  Felt like that for many decades.

I'd also add, certainly in the restaurant where I work, we would never, ever, reuse a cooking pan like that.  Each dish is cooked in its own pan and that pan is then washed thoroughly.  But I am fully aware that many might not be as scrupulous.

SpiderChrist

There comes a point where, inevitably, one has to explain one's dietary choices (usually when eating at someone else's house).

What really makes my piss itch is that I've had loads of friends and relatives make a point of the fact that I choose not to eat meat, fish or dairy and will do their best to point out any perceived contradictions I might exhibit (like wearing a Quint's Shark Fishing hoodie or admitting that langoustines taste fucking amazing, pour example).

For every vegan who goes out of their way to tell everyone how righteous they are, there are loads of heartless carnivorous bastards non-vegans who feel it is their mission to criticise an activity that does not harm them in any way at all. So it goes with many other practices.

There are some vegans who will go out of their way to criticise others for what they eat. That's up to them. I don't give a fuck what other people eat and I expect the same courtesy to be extended to me.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

QuoteIt's an absolute piece of piss nowadays*

*in a large city in the West when self-catering

Even then, here are things we still regularly encounter while eating out or at breakfasts. Bear in mind we don't just turn up to any place demanding vegan food, we check in advance:

- Fundamentally not knowing what a vegan is even when working every day in hospitality, and not even investing the 10 minutes necessary to check (sometimes even after stating in advance it would be ok)

- Not realising about contamination. Eg. placing products like cheese and egg next to or on vegan things on the same plate or in the same pan is not okay. Sometimes resulting in the same mistake being made twice, occasionally 3 times.

- Making the vegan person (or should that be paying customer?) feel guilty when it is them who have fucked up.

- The vegetarian section of a menu with dishes literally containing meat.

- Dishes marked vegan being served alongside non-vegan sides not properly labelled

- Vegan alternatives/adjustments being something quintessential to the dish being removed while being charged the same price for half a meal

- So many specialist vegan places having cafe licenses and so being closed by 5pm.

- Vegan food being served lukewarm at best at specialist vegan places. (What is with that, btw?)

- More I will probably remember later.

Apart from the fact the thought of eating meat completely grosses my partner out, she is fully lactose intolerant and so eating anything containing that results in a 2 minute window to find somewhere to puke it all up and be in pain for the next 24 hours while her stomach resets. So there is quite an incentive to ensure the stuff is edible and uncontaminated.

Honestly, I wish it wasn't the case, but the chain brands who do big table bookings are better than independents for vegan compliance. They lose a lot of money if they don't cater to the 1 person in 8 with specific requirements and they have a corporate structure to train this out.

It is all getting rapidly better and better though.

SpiderChrist

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on August 03, 2021, 09:55:02 AM
Apart from the fact the thought of eating meat completely grosses my partner out, she is fully lactose intolerant and so eating anything containing that results in a 2 minute window to find somewhere to puke it all up and be in pain for the next 24 hours while her stomach resets. So there is quite an incentive to ensure the stuff is edible and uncontaminated.

I am mildly lactose intolerant, but my brother is allergic - we went to a place where we were promised that vegan options were available for everything and ended up driving him to A&E when he scoffed some veggies (a side dish for his sea bass) that had been cooked in butter. This was after making it crystal clear to the waiter that my brother couldn't eat anything that contained dairy.

I think for a lot of people that don't have any food intolerances or allergies, the idea of something with butter in putting someone in hospital just doesn't enter the equation - they seem to think it's just a bunch of poncey hairdressers making a fuss.

notjosh

Haven't eaten meat or dairy in 13 years. Eat free range eggs but only if I've bought them myself so only have vegan when eating out.

I've definitely encountered a lot of the stuff Shoulders lists over the years but it has changed dramatically in the last 3-4 years particularly. Very rarely now do I go somewhere with no vegan option at all, and most cities in the UK now have two or three vegan joints. There are also enough people going 'flexitarian' and all that sort of thing that I rarely get annoying questions about it anymore.

To be honest, I don't recommend going full vegan to anyone who isn't genuinely committed to a reducing their contribution towards animal cruelty. Cutting out meat is a piece of piss but the amount of delicious snacks that have skimmed milk powder in them will do your nut in. I strongly suspect that a lot of people who claim to have gone vegan for non-animal-related reasons are not standing in Tesco squinting at the ingredients on a packet of Monster Munch.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Bad reviews are increasingly harmful to any business and one of that sort where the chef has basically poisoned a diner make people reading wonder firstly if it has been addressed but also surrounding aspects like the overall sanitation of the cooking area, because if that level of basic neglect is on show it casts the mind around more widely.

As I say, larger more corporate chains have the time and resources to devise a process, distribute and train it out. They don't want to but they have to because they'd be toast if they didn't. For the time being they have stolen a march on smaller businesses where it is almost the luck of the draw if both waiter and chef know what all this means.

Pijlstaart

When I went herbivore I changed physically, I had more energy, I took to chirruping, my penis became harp-like and a joy to strum. I no longer have to wash. Was hoping grateful woodland friends would run up to me gurgling to braid wildflowers into my hair, nothing yet but I'm resolute, Grandmother had a sort of blood mushroom sprout out the top of her head in her final months, at the time I was disgusted but animals loved her and it seemed to signify a oneness with nature, been spooning readybrek into a sore on my ankle and walking through floodwater to make  helminth friends.

Quorn mince isn't remotely mince, it's some kind of spongy nugget, got meatless farms to work but it took some experimenting and it turned to mush if I didn't brown it off first. Linda McCartney rosemary and red onion sausages are a staple and the only meat-substitute that I find can be eaten straight, the rest have to be buried in mustard or spice. Much better not to look for meat replacements and focus on 70s lentil gruels.

The Mollusk

Quote from: Beagle 2 on August 02, 2021, 11:57:24 PM
I haven't declared myself as so but I'm really not arsed about meat... except for curries. I've tried so many amazing vegetarian curry dishes but if it's a bog standard takeaway you're looking at paneer (okay but let's face it basically just shite) or a "vegetable curry" which I always feel is cooked with contempt as the main spice.

u wot

A lot of Indian meals including curries are vegetarian by default. If you're getting a bad vegetarian option from your curry house then you should be ordering elsewhere because they're betraying their roots and should be cast out of civilised society.

Our local place has a veggie/vegan menu which is bafflingly extensive, it's incredible. Never ordered a meat or paneer dish from there as I've been vegan the whole time I've lived in this area and they've always been fuckin delicious. Find a place that has options like ceylon (my favourite), karahi, shatkora or anything that varies from the usual "honky" curries and you'll be on to a winner.

Seriously man, curry is 100% the best meal a vegan can get if you're into that sorta food. Similar dishes from other parts of the world - stews, tagines etc - are all well and good but they're relatively quite limited and dominated by tomato. Curry on the other hand is a whole galaxy of fragrant concoctions waiting to be hoovered up.

Zetetic

The worst thing is that fish curry is better than any meat curry.

Buelligan

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on August 03, 2021, 10:11:21 AM
Bad reviews are increasingly harmful to any business and one of that sort where the chef has basically poisoned a diner make people reading wonder firstly if it has been addressed but also surrounding aspects like the overall sanitation of the cooking area, because if that level of basic neglect is on show it casts the mind around more widely.

As I say, larger more corporate chains have the time and resources to devise a process, distribute and train it out. They don't want to but they have to because they'd be toast if they didn't. For the time being they have stolen a march on smaller businesses where it is almost the luck of the draw if both waiter and chef know what all this means.

This is partly true but you forgot to add that a lot of people working in restaurants actually really care about the Art and the people enjoying it.  It isn't simply a capitalist process and they absolutely do go the extra (often unpaid) hundred miles to make sure all those systems and attitudes of care are expressed every single day. 

I think, personally, it's a big problem, this idea of demanding service and the financial imperative of domination, serve or die.  Not at all what producing great food is about.  Imagine the art you'd get or the music or any other creative expression if it was all or even mostly, about serving the power of the wallet and tripadvisor.

Also agree completely on Indian (and Thai food - in Thailand, at least) food and 70s gruels.  I never eat meat replacements and I only ever think about them when others talk about them, like alcopops or something, just retired into the mist of history and not missed at all.

pancreas

Quote from: Zetetic on August 03, 2021, 11:41:30 AM
The worst thing is that fish curry is better than any meat curry.

On what spectrum is this the worst thing? I find it sort of neutral, by instinct.

Buelligan

I've always pretty much loathed dead fish.  I don't find them neutral at all.  Sorry fish.

pancreas

Have you heard that joke:

How do you know if someone's a Buelligan?

Spoiler alert
They tell you all their opinions about literally everything.
[close]

flotemysost

Quote from: The Mollusk on August 03, 2021, 11:15:33 AM
u wot

A lot of Indian meals including curries are vegetarian by default. If you're getting a bad vegetarian option from your curry house then you should be ordering elsewhere because they're betraying their roots and should be cast out of civilised society.

Second this. There are multiple cultures in the Indian subcontinent that espouse veganism, resulting in loads of delicious vegan curries. My Bengali great-grandparents were (apparently) strict vegans to the point of making guests wash their mouths out if they mentioned meat or dairy, which is probably a tad extreme tbf.

Anyway, yeah there's a whole plethora of great recipes to try. I'm really not a prolific chef but I did recently make a very nice chickpea, lentil and ginger curry, really hearty and comforting and completely vegan. I've yet to find a decent vegan paneer - ordered a paneer tikka masala from a vegan place near me called Holy Cow last weekend as a Pfizer comedown treat, the texture was a bit meh but the sauce was so good it made up for it. However I'd like to try making the Dishoom recipe but as a vegan version, I'll think on it.

One thing to bear in mind is that ghee isn't vegan, I'm not sure how many restaurants which have both vegan and non-vegan options on the menu might be likely to just cook everything in ghee anyway, in case that's a problem.

Buelligan

Quote from: pancreas on August 03, 2021, 11:59:58 AM
Have you heard that joke:

How do you know if someone's a Buelligan?

Spoiler alert
They tell you all their opinions about literally everything.
[close]

No.

It's a good joke though.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

QuoteThis is partly true but you forgot to add that a lot of people working in restaurants actually really care about the Art and the people enjoying it.  It isn't simply a capitalist process and they absolutely do go the extra (often unpaid) hundred miles to make sure all those systems and attitudes of care are expressed every single day.

I didn't need to add this actually, but either way it can already be gathered from my post I wasn't arguing otherwise.


bgmnts

I'd assume most people in most poor countries are mostly vegetarian or vegan due to meat being a bit expensive.

When I was in Nepal having a bit of goat was so important it was ritualised.

So I think the idea that we are incredibly lucky to be vegetarian or vegan due to our opportunities a bit weird.

Buelligan

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on August 03, 2021, 12:12:11 PM
I didn't need to add this actually, but either way it can already be gathered from my post I wasn't arguing otherwise.



Yeah, sorry, I forgot to write the advisory - THIS IS NOT AN ARGUMENT, I'M JUST POINTING THIS OUT BECAUSE I SEE IT AS RELEVANT, HAVING SOME EXPERIENCE IN THIS PARTICULAR SPHERE AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IT HERE, TODAY.  NEVERTHELESS, SHOULDERS GETS ABSOLUTE TOP MARKS FOR HIS POST, AS ALWAYS.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

Quote from: bgmnts on August 03, 2021, 12:12:42 PM
I'd assume most people in most poor countries are mostly vegetarian or vegan due to meat being a bit expensive.

When I was in Nepal having a bit of goat was so important it was ritualised.

So I think the idea that we are incredibly lucky to be vegetarian or vegan due to our opportunities a bit weird.

In countries where they aren't prosperous or populous enough to be able to trade a huge amount of high value goods at scale, diet depends more on what the land locally can yield. Sometimes that is meat and fish over vegetables, the variation in staple diet is huge if you take a look at the lowest GDP countries.

There is also cultural practice. Northern Italy has a polenta fetish despite it being the most tasteless cheap shit going and that region being the most prosperous in the country. Bosnian men eat so much meat they are the tallest in Europe (and also cane booze and fegs) so it isn't entirely drawn logically.

I think the idea of pejoratively calling veganism middle class has traceable logic, even if I don't agree with it personally, because there were day to day barriers to people accessing alternatives and it was for a while a niche and very conscious act that required one to take extra steps and negate the usual convenient routes to do groceries and cook. This is relevant because poorer people in the UK are the most starved of time and therefore the most likely to hunt down convenience food, which in turn is much more likely to be takeaways and ready meals. This is so far beyond contention as to scarcely be worth pointing out, but I am doing because there will no doubt be someone poorly comprehending this that will jump in to shout 'But preparing vegan food is simple and cheap'.

This is also why environmentalism was seen as middle class, because more often people who can afford to sacrifice time and energy have the social status and economic privilege to be able to do so. If in the UK it was all sorted by conscious self-interest then XR would be fronted largely by white and Asian working classes rather than being disrportionately comprised of students and 40-somethings who own a Prius and get organic food delivered from Waitrose for our two children and looked into solar panels but they were too expensive but we have a composter.

Shoulders?-Stomach!


Buelligan

Quote from: Shoulders?-Stomach! on August 03, 2021, 12:27:33 PM
This is also why environmentalism was seen as middle class, because more often people who can afford to sacrifice time and energy have the social status and economic privilege to be able to do so. If in the UK it was all sorted by conscious self-interest then XR would be fronted largely by white and Asian working classes rather than being disrportionately comprised of students and 40-somethings who own a Prius and get organic food delivered from Waitrose for our two children and looked into solar panels but they were too expensive but we have a composter.

It will be interesting to see how climate change, with its flooding and drought, will affect the attitudes of property owners in all of this.  Maybe too late to mean anything, nevertheless, interesting.

imitationleather

When I was in Cuba I met a cow farmer who had only ever eaten beef twice in his life, because he could never afford it.

St_Eddie

I once went for a meal at a (possibly independent) fast food joint, before going to see a film at the cinema.  I was with my parents and my Mum went up to order.  I asked her to see if they did any bean burgers or anything for vegetarians.  My Mum came back and handed me some fries and a 'burger'.  Turns out the cashier had said they didn't have any specifically vegetarian options on the menu, other than fries but that she would see what the kitchen could rustle up for me.  I opened up the burger bun to find two large pieces of lettuce, a slice of tomato and a slice of cucumber within.  Shockingly, this was in 2018.  I'm a vegetarian, not a fucking rabbit.

Shit Good Nose

Quote from: St_Eddie on August 03, 2021, 01:43:58 PM
I once went for a meal at a (possibly independent) fast food joint, before going to see a film at the cinema.  I was with my parents and my Mum went up to order.  I asked her to see if they did any bean burgers or anything for vegetarians.  My Mum came back and handed me some fries and a 'burger'.  Turns out the cashier had said they didn't have any specifically vegetarian options on the menu, other than fries but that she would see what the kitchen could rustle up for me.  I opened up the burger bun to find two large pieces of lettuce, a slice of tomato and a slice of cucumber within.  Shockingly, this was in 2018.  I'm a vegetarian, not a fucking rabbit.

Bet you love rabbit food though, right?  RIGHT??????

pancreas

Quote from: Shit Good Nose on August 03, 2021, 02:01:25 PM
Bet you love rabbit food though, right?  RIGHT??????

Our childhood rabbit was onto kale before any of today's woke lib-tard crew. Dead now, of course.