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March 28, 2024, 09:03:33 AM

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The Matrix films (or how/why did the Wachowskis muck up the sequels so badly?)

Started by Blinder Data, August 09, 2021, 05:17:53 PM

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Quote from: popcorn on August 10, 2021, 11:37:42 AM
This is unkind of me but I don't really believe they intended this at the time, even if they say they did.

I don't think that's necessarily an unkind view - after all, they argued when they were producing the sequels that three films were always intended from the very beginning, which as I've already addressed doesn't ring true.  They formed that narrative when they wanted to communicate the value of their new position.

On the above basis, my feeling is that the fourth film will be a much more overt trans allegory, and framing the first three Matrix films in this way will help to knock back any criticisms (from predictable idiots) that this approach is intrusive and flown in from nowhere. 

And there's nothing wrong with this, however I do think the value of the first film, at least, comes from the way that Neo seems to find or perceive himself as an outsider generally rather than specifically.  Neo's journey appeals very broadly to anyone who feels different or outside social, cultural or political norms, and also quite naturally to a teenage mindset of feeling more 'awake' than everyone else.  This made the film accessible and appealing in a general sense, and while filmmakers can always have their own personal interpretation of the themes they have set in motion, the interpretations of audience members become equally valid once that film has been released to the public.

I am reminded of how annoying the directors' cut of Donnie Darko was, precisely because it took Richard Kelly's very personal understanding of the film and narrowed its possible interpretations down to his own reading.  I can see the artistic merit of doing this, and when it comes to trans allegory I can absolutely appreciate the value of raising awareness of specific themes that writers and directors wish to make forefront, but I suppose the skill lies in keeping allegories open and ambiguous so that more general audiences can still read what they want in any final film.

popcorn

Yes I think that is all reasonable. Good Work Replies From View!!

Quote from: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 12:12:36 PM
Neo's journey appeals very broadly to anyone who feels different or outside social, cultural or political norms, and also quite naturally to a teenage mindset of feeling more 'awake' than everyone else.

There were loads of films like that in the 90s.

GoblinAhFuckScary

Quote from: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 08:30:24 AM
The Wachowskis revealed fairly recently that the Matrix was intended as trans allegory.  I didn't know until I watched this video, which I am only part-way through:

https://youtu.be/M0VnYcMHuDc

i've been told this for years but always been highly doubtful this was their actual intention or wether it actually works without huuuuuuge leaps of faith

edit: ah popcorn beat me to it. good points tho, replies

idunnosomename

Marketing was good for the first one was good in that somehow I saw it in the cinema without having a clue what it was about.

Just watched that highway chase and it's like a spoof/cartoon/watching somebody else play a boring video game

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

I can't be bothered watching a nearly two hour long video about it right now, but it being a trans allegory doesn't seem like much of a stretch. The end product could be read as a metaphor for any number of marginalised groups - the "Mr Anderson" "My name... is Neil!" bit works as easily for slave names as it does for trans identity - but with the Wachowskis both being trans women it makes sense for that to be their inspiration. I once heard that the blonde woman in the first film was supposed to have been played by a man in the real world scenes.

Anyway. The sequels. I agree with whomever said the main problem was that they were one film's worth of actual story, padded out with whatever crap the Wachowskis wanted to include. I'm not sure you could even say they do much in the way of world building. I think the most we really get (aside from that embarrassing rave scene) is that the Verymingian's henchmen are supernatural creatures, but that just translates into more blokes for Neo to fight - they just wear douchier suits than the agents.

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Quote from: Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth on August 10, 2021, 04:34:36 PM
I can't be bothered watching a nearly two hour long video about it right now, but it being a trans allegory doesn't seem like much of a stretch. The end product could be read as a metaphor for any number of marginalised groups - the "Mr Anderson" "My name... is Neil!" bit works as easily for slave names as it does for trans identity - but with the Wachowskis both being trans women it makes sense for that to be their inspiration. I once heard that the blonde woman in the first film was supposed to have been played by a man in the real world scenes.

Apparently also Switch was originally planned to change gender between being in and out of the Matrix, which is a nice idea.

Anyway, it's:


"Neil...."

"My name.... is Barry Admin!"

Replies From View

One sad thing about the sequels is how the Oracle is suddenly spouting all the same pseudo-intellectual pretentious sixth-form essay bullshit as all the other characters.  "You will choose a choice that you will have chosen and why you came here to find out why you came here."  Why don't you fucking talk properly.  In the first film she was comparably relatable and down to earth, and especially welcome for that reason.

Claude the Racecar Driving Rockstar Super Sleuth

One fun thing about the sequels is how Hugo Weaving just goes for broke. He was already the best character in the first film, like a Terminator who's gone insane. Along come the sequels and he's hamming it up for all he's worth.

Quote from: Replies From View on August 10, 2021, 06:29:44 PM
Apparently also Switch was originally planned to change gender between being in and out of the Matrix, which is a nice idea.
Switch. That was her name. I forgot because of how dull the supporting cast were. Even the name plays into the transgender interpretation.

Quote from: surreal on August 09, 2021, 06:35:28 PM
Re-watching Blade... after watching The Matrix also highlights how many things occur in all those movies, Blade especially is similar in many ways.  Not saying rip-off as it's all Sci-Fi but it does make for interesting viewing in hindsight
I think it's just that both of them were riffing on/ripping off the same set of influences - anime, Hong Kong movies, that one very '90s style of sunglasses. There is a (possibly guff) story about the Wachowskis pitching The Matrix by showing the producers a clip from Ghost in the Shell and saying "We want to do that in live action."

thugler

The animatrix was good in bits though eh?

I was so disappointed by the 2 sequels, I watched them several times to try and get something out of them.

I was very invested in the original film and remember reading endlessly about it after seeing it, and was even interested in what they did with the plot following the films in the MMO game they made (which I never even set eyes on). The CGI/Effects aint half dodgy for the real world tentacle robot bits though, always took me out of it a bit after the practical effects were so great when he comes out of the pod.

Really don't rate them as directors though, think it was a bit of a fluke.

popcorn

The new Matrix film is being co-written with David Mitchell, who has written some of my favourite novels, but I thought his more recent books were schlock. The Wachowskis did the adaption of Cloud Atlas, which is terrible. I do not anticipate great things.

greenman

Quote from: popcorn on August 10, 2021, 11:37:42 AM
This is unkind of me but I don't really believe they intended this at the time, even if they say they did.

The Switch character being originally intended to change gender in and out of the Matrix is something I can buy into being true but the film as a whole whilst I can see the creatures being trans playing a part in its nature doesnt seem like its intended to be that specific.

Honestly I think with the sequel/s that might have been a more worthwhile direction to go and more within the creators abilties. A high concept sci fi story beyond a heroes journey that had some substance to it was really something they didnt seem equipped for yet I think Bound did actually manage to have some substance to the lesbian story beyond just being just a titillating setup. Using the pull they had from the originals sucess to make a sequel with a new lead character in that position seems like a much more interesting prospect to me, albeit one I'm sure much of the fanbase would have loathed.

mothman

I wonder whether taking four years to make a sequel (two, in fact, and there's that problem once more with back-to-back sequels) didn't help. When I saw The Matrix almost blind in 1999[nb]As in knowing virtually nothing about it, shut up[/nb], I was single and had just moved to the big city[nb]London[/nb]. By the time I went to see Reloaded, I had fallen in love, gotten married and moved back out of the big city. And taking MrsMoth to see it was so embarrassing I never even thought about broaching the subject of going to see Revolutions the next year. The fact that it took four to five years to make such disappointing sequels... that are more like a pair rushed out in a hurry. Maybe it's impossible to ever make a good sequel to this, because it depended so much on the mystery and the bullet-timey spectacle first time round. And yet - The Matrix itself stands up to repeated views. Well it does for me anyway.

evilcommiedictator

Ehh you all need to watch the film with the Philosophers' commentary with Cornell West and another guy in it - they made me appreciate a lot more of the nuance in it, for example, Morpheus goes from a blind zealot into a doubter to having his faith rewarded.

The Matrix - revolutionary graphical effects and a cool green setting with the standard journey of the hero
Matrix Reloaded - We've setup this hero, but he's not going to win. We're going to reveal him "winning" was part of a bigger plan, where he loses. Also the Animatrix helps understand what is at stake. New revolutionary* graphical effects give us a substandard CGI Neo
Matrix Revolutions - Now we have big set piece action sequences to resolve the story but except it's going to be a yin/yang ending instead of the heroes winning and therefore everyone will hate it.

The best explainer of the above from the directors in the game Path Of Neo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgg7FdznyQg

idunnosomename


olliebean

Quote from: popcorn on August 10, 2021, 09:11:35 PM
The new Matrix film is being co-written with David Mitchell, who has written some of my favourite novels, but I thought his more recent books were schlock. The Wachowskis did the adaption of Cloud Atlas, which is terrible. I do not anticipate great things.

Cloud Atlas was great. Probably my favourite thing the Wachowskis have done.

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Mr Trumpet

Never saw Cloud Atlas but I very much enjoyed Lana Wachowski's ridiculous Sense8, which had a great international cast (including Sylvester McCoy!). If they draw on some of those actors for the new film then i'd be interested.

Custard

There is a very good fan-edit of the two sequels mashed into one, called De-Zionized, which if you can seek it out is well worth a watch. Disposes of most of the bollocks, though it's nearly three hours long, and Morpheus just kinda disappears towards the end

I didn't mind Reloaded at the time, but nearly 20 years on it clearly is a massive flabby stupid mess. Revolutions is just standard action bollocks. Both are a joke compared to the still fantastic first one

Animatrix I remember being genuinely decent, with interesting ideas.

Does anyone know why there's only one Wachowski sister working on the new one?


greenman

Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 11, 2021, 10:33:28 AM
There is a very good fan-edit of the two sequels mashed into one, called De-Zionized, which if you can seek it out is well worth a watch. Disposes of most of the bollocks, though it's nearly three hours long, and Morpheus just kinda disappears towards the end

I didn't mind Reloaded at the time, but nearly 20 years on it clearly is a massive flabby stupid mess. Revolutions is just standard action bollocks. Both are a joke compared to the still fantastic first one

Animatrix I remember being genuinely decent, with interesting ideas.

Does anyone know why there's only one Wachowski sister working on the new one?

Really I think most of the Zion plot could have been some off screen countdown of the machines drilling a giant bomb down to them.

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Quote from: Shameless Custard on August 11, 2021, 10:33:28 AM
There is a very good fan-edit of the two sequels mashed into one, called De-Zionized, which if you can seek it out is well worth a watch. Disposes of most of the bollocks, though it's nearly three hours long, and Morpheus just kinda disappears towards the end

But to be fair, he does in the original version of the sequels anyway.



The most ludicrous addition to the main cast is that wiener kid who shrieks wanton sycophancy at Neo whenever he sees him.  At the end of the third film space is inexplicably given to him rather than Morpheus:  "Neo has achieved it!  He's managed to stop the machines and now the war is over!!" or whatever he says when the squids stop whizzing around for three seconds.

At this point in the critics commentary someone drily adds "He seems quite sure about it."



Best thing about the sequels is that commentary.  You should check it out.

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Quote from: greenman on August 11, 2021, 11:24:09 AM
Really I think most of the Zion plot could have been some off screen countdown of the machines drilling a giant bomb down to them.

A countdown is more than we got in the sequels themselves, which gave us no sense at all of how much closer the drill was getting, or how long it was until doomsday.  On that basis alone it's fundamentally stupid storytelling.

Start of the second film:  the machines are coming to get us

Start of the third film:  the machines are coming to get us


In terms of what supposedly matters to Zion, you could skip the second film.  On a narrative level what does Matrix Reloaded actually achieve?  Neo is no less clueless after the whole of the second film, either.


This is the thing when it comes to cutting out useless stuff from the sequels - once you pick at the loose threads there's nothing you can't unravel.  Everyone talks about removing the leaden Zion stuff, but none of the fight/dance sequences or the car chase or interminably static conversations mean or achieve anything either.  They are the very definition of a waste of time.

"Hmm, upgrades."

Never have two words so utterly, thoroughly and irreveocably torpedoed a film/franchise/cinematic universe.

I've never really bought into the "depth" it supposedly has, either.

"This is shit."

"Ah, but don't you get it? This bit references a key piece of 5th century philosophy!"

"Oh, OK. I like it now."

13 schoolyards

The thing that sticks with me after repeated rewatches of the sequels hoping they'll magically somehow become decent films is that so much of the stuff that is puzzling or pointless within the story (whether the story itself is pointless is another matter) is actually explained - just in a tossed-off way that seems intentionally obtuse. It's like they totally forgot how to tell a story between the first and second (and third) films and just assumed as long as the information was in the film somewhere people would pick up on it.

Or maybe I'm just thick. Either way it took me multiple viewings to realise that most of the sentinel action early in the third film takes place in a dock that's miles above where everyone lives, which is why there's two separate "oh no, the drills are almost through to where we are!" sequences.


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Quote from: ErnestTakadichi on August 11, 2021, 01:10:05 PM
"Hmm, upgrades."

Never have two words so utterly, thoroughly and irreveocably torpedoed a film/franchise/cinematic universe.

YOU BLOCKED MY ATTACK, WOAH.  BETTER GET THE OTHER HAND OUT FROM BEHIND MY BACK THEN.  Not torpedoing anything, but it feels clunkingly part of a contrived effort to reset Neo back to his pre-enlightened state so the sequels can be about his journey.

It's a way of countering the fact that Neo should be able to obliterate these agents immediately but isn't able to.  They have been upgraded (in some unspecified and indeterminate way), so he is regressed to fisticuffs that we thought he'd grown out of by the end of the first film.

They've been upgraded, yet Morpheus is able to dance cheek-to-cheek with them as well.  It was established in the first film that Neo's ability to fight back against agents was part of what made him The One.


Gulftastic

The films would have been more interesting if instead of Neo being the One, it turned out to be Brian Eno.

SteveDave

I remember seeing the second one in a near empty cinema (an early bird £3 special) one morning and laughing my head off (doing a derisive snort) at the "DUN DUN DUN!!!" ending when they wheeled Neo and the disguised evil fellow next to each other.

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Quote from: SteveDave on August 11, 2021, 04:02:05 PM
I remember seeing the second one in a near empty cinema (an early bird £3 special) one morning and laughing my head off (doing a derisive snort) at the "DUN DUN DUN!!!" ending when they wheeled Neo and the disguised evil fellow next to each other.

Yes that was a groan-inducer.  No effort to create a substantial cliffhanger because they expected their audience would return automatically.


It was immensely presumptuous that viewers would remember that character from his one scene earlier in the film, especially since he was now upside down.  I remember the first time I saw Reloaded, I was already fatigued by the film and I couldn't grasp that final moment at all.  I didn't recognise that upside down face and couldn't ascertain whether we were meant to know, whether it was just me failing to follow it because I was so tired.  And the music sting absolutely conveyed that we were meant to know what was going on.

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One thing I never really understood about the Matrix sequels was why multiple Smiths were no more of a threat than just the one of them.  It seemed that every time Smith copied himself the total number of them didn't grow in power, yet in the third film only one Smith fought Neo and they were evenly matched again. 

Conceptually it seems so confused within itself, like it doesn't know what it wants to be, yet I can't believe the Wachowskis failed to think this through on some level.