Doctor Who Series 13: Goodbye, Mr. Chibs

[Huxleys Babkins]

Honestly I don't know.  It's not the line delivery.  Somehow in the Fugutive Doctor episode I just felt she had a lot more 'presence' and just felt very 'Doctor-y'.  Is she the best ever, no of course not, but I definitely feel that she upstages JW to a degree that by comparison she seems pretty good.

Maybe it's just that her calm demeanor is so refreshing against Jodie's constant breathless mad professor routine.  DW has always had that "I've got all of space and time but HURRY" sense of urgency, but she takes it to a whole new level that is actually painful to watch.

But that's just how their characters are written. Swap the actors and you'd be saying how much better Whitaker was than Martin. One gets to stand around with a big gun and give it all the "I'm the Doctor" spiel and the other gets to be a hapless passenger in her own story.

Of course you're going to prefer the actor who actually gets to play the Doctor as the Doctor.

[Alberon]

I think we've said before that it seems Chibnall was going for a Doctor similar to Peter Davison, but just ended up with a strangely passive one. Having the Doctor stuck in prison for years only to saved by a man is about the lowest point he's managed.

So far.

[Mister Six]

SO WHO ELSE IS EXCITED FOR DOCTOR WHO: FLUX????

"The Flux", fucking hell. Was watching The End of the World the other day, and RTD really has an ear for a good space name.

"Representing the Forest of Cheam, we have trees, namely, Jabe, Lute and Coffa ... from the solicitors Jolco and Jolco, we have the Moxx of Balhoon ... from Financial Family Seven, we have the Adherents of the Repeated Meme ... The inventors of Hypo-slip Travel Systems, the brothers Hop Pyleen ... Cal Spark Plug ... Mister and Mrs Pakoo ... The Ambassadors from the City State of Binding Light."

Some of those are clearly deliberately daft, but "The Adherents of the Repeated Meme" and "The City State of Binding Light" are lovely and evocative, and several of the others hint at a much wider world and older history - what is Financial Family Seven? And doesn't it say a lot about the society they emerged from that they hold that name (and, clearly, position of esteem)? What's a "Hypo-Slip Travel System"? Why are Mr and Mrs Pakoo so notable that they don't even have a preamble?

Really lovely stuff, and really just a couple of seconds of set dressing for the story itself.

Meanwhile, Chibnall has central characters and places with such ugly and charmless names as Ranskoor Av Kolos, Ux and Ko Sharmus. I had to look all those up, too - couldn't remember a single one.

Fuck off, Chris, you're fucking shit at everything.

[frajer]

I think we've said before that it seems Chibnall was going for a Doctor similar to Peter Davison, but just ended up with a strangely passive one. Having the Doctor stuck in prison for years only to saved by a man is about the lowest point he's managed.

So far.

Yeah I think he was aiming for the Davison-era Doctor and TARDIS family but just didn't have the chops to pull it off at all.

I've mentioned it before but when his initial ideas for Series 11 were mooted (larger regular TARDIS crew, a focus on original foes over returning ones, a clean break from the Davies and Moffat era Gallifrey/Lonely God plotlines) I thought they all sounded great. It's his execution of those ideas that's been completely and utterly lacking. He really is just a frustratingly bad writer and showrunner.

I know Big Finish gets a roasting sometimes (and sometimes they deserve it!) but stuff like their Eighth Doctor 'Stranded' box sets which are being released concurrent with the Whittaker telly era really do knock Chibnall's stuff into a cocked hat.

[lipsink]

Yeah, I didn't think Jo Martin was great as The Doctor either. Though she is pretty damn good in Back To Life so it's probably just the writing/direction.

[olliebean]

I wouldn't have minded as much if the Doctor wasn't apparently blown away by it.  If she'd pointedly said "that is the crappest switcheroo ever" we'd have known that this version of the Master is supposed to be a screeching maniac who can't see how pathetic his own schemes are.  It would have defined the Doctor and Master somewhat and moved the characters forwards.  Instead, just like when the Fugitive Doctor appeared and all gullibility broke loose, all we have is the Doctor being mystified and astonished at the very slightest hint of nothing.

Something just occurred to me about that. That sort of reaction from the Doctor, that's the same reaction as Chibnall is hoping to get from the viewer. But this goes to the heart of what's wrong with how he writes the Doctor. The Doctor isn't supposed to be a proxy for the viewer; that's the companions' job.

[mothman]

Meanwhile, Chibnall has central characters and places with such ugly and charmless names as Ranskoor Av Kolos, Ux and Ko Sharmus. I had to look all those up, too - couldn't remember a single one.

I do occasionally have a chuckle at the idea of an alien (mistakenly) called Tim Shaw though. I'm not proud of it.

[Ambient Sheep]

"Representing the Forest of Cheam, we have trees, namely, Jabe, Lute and Coffa ... from the solicitors Jolco and Jolco, we have the Moxx of Balhoon ... from Financial Family Seven, we have the Adherents of the Repeated Meme ... The inventors of Hypo-slip Travel Systems, the brothers Hop Pyleen ... Cal Spark Plug ... Mister and Mrs Pakoo ... The Ambassadors from the City State of Binding Light."

Some of those are clearly deliberately daft, but "The Adherents of the Repeated Meme" and "The City State of Binding Light" are lovely and evocative, and several of the others hint at a much wider world and older history - what is Financial Family Seven?

It only just occurred to me, as I read the transcript above, that it could be a riff on Final Fantasy VII?  Being one of the few people in the universe to have never seen it, let alone played it, I wouldn't know if being an Adherent of a Repeated Meme would be fitting for it.

By the way, at the time I assumed The Adherents of the Repeated Meme was just an amusing dig at a certain kind of internet user, especially as IIRC they were faceless in the show.

And yes, I thought then and still think now that RTD was superb on space names.  Sounding strange and exotic without sounding unlikely and silly.  One of his many strengths.

[Mister Six]

I too found the Tim Shaw joke amusing.

It only just occurred to me, as I read the transcript above, that it could be a riff on Final Fantasy VII?  Being one of the few people in the universe to have never seen it, let alone played it, I wouldn't know if being an Adherent of a Repeated Meme would be fitting for it.

Played FFVII back in the day, but I can't figure out what you think it might be referencing. Can you elaborate?

[Cloud]

Played FFVII countless times, "Financial Family Seven" does sound like something I'd have picked up as a reference but the others seem like they could be references to other FFs from VII onwards.  "Adherents of the Repeated Meme" - Tomb of the Unknown King (FFVIII)?, "hypo slip travel systems"?  Some sort of reference to Esthar in VIII? .. "City State of Blinding Light", well FFXIII's battle theme is called "Blinded by Light".... maybe a little tenuous... I'm not sure what to make of the rest of them.  Brothers could be a vague spoiler-y reference to IX I suppose.

[Ambient Sheep]

Played FFVII back in the day, but I can't figure out what you think it might be referencing. Can you elaborate?

Only the initials, nothing more.  I've just seen "FF7" mentioned all over the place on the internet for years, and as soon as I read "Financial Family 7" in the transcript my stupid connection-making brain went "Hah, FF7, funny!"

As I said up there, never seen the game itself, know nothing about it, had to Google just to check that it did indeed come out before Nu-Who.

It's just my brain being silly, don't read too much into it, sorry.

[Mister Six]

D'oh! Gotcha.

[Norton Canes]

Was watching The End of the World the other day, and RTD really has an ear for a good space name.

"Representing the Forest of Cheam, we have trees, namely, Jabe, Lute and Coffa ... from the solicitors Jolco and Jolco, we have the Moxx of Balhoon ... from Financial Family Seven, we have the Adherents of the Repeated Meme ... The inventors of Hypo-slip Travel Systems, the brothers Hop Pyleen ... Cal Spark Plug ... Mister and Mrs Pakoo ... The Ambassadors from the City State of Binding Light."

Yeah, the only trouble was, these throwaway names for races and places were often the most evocative things he came up with - the stories he wrote rarely took those concepts and built anything around them.

[Replies From View]

I too found the Tim Shaw joke amusing.

Well you had no reason to

[Norton Canes]

I too found the Tim Shaw joke amusing

So did I. But then I think I laughed at one of the lines in Derek.

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

Well you had no reason to

you had NO right to do that

[purlieu]

It's not new, it's Jo Martin's Doctor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fugitive_Doctor

Ah, that shows how much I remember about that story then.

Tim Shaw was funny, partially helped by The Woman Who Fell to Earth being a fairly decent episode that set up a version of the show that never really followed.

[Replies From View]

It doesn't work because Chibnall came up with the alien's real name as well.  It's not a brilliant twist on something established or recognisable, it's Chibnall coming up with an alien name specifically to twist it into "Tim Shaw".


State what is good about it or forever accept that it is shit, thank you

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

Tim Shaw was funny, partially helped by The Woman Who Fell to Earth being a fairly decent episode that set up a version of the show that never really followed.

just want to get a word in at this juncture to say capaldi's outfit really suited her and i fucking loathe her adult baby's outfit she's gone with without variation for the entire run

[Tikwid]

SO WHO ELSE IS EXCITED FOR DOCTOR WHO: FLUX????

"The Flux", fucking hell. Was watching The End of the World the other day, and RTD really has an ear for a good space name.

"Representing the Forest of Cheam, we have trees, namely, Jabe, Lute and Coffa ... from the solicitors Jolco and Jolco, we have the Moxx of Balhoon ... from Financial Family Seven, we have the Adherents of the Repeated Meme ... The inventors of Hypo-slip Travel Systems, the brothers Hop Pyleen ... Cal Spark Plug ... Mister and Mrs Pakoo ... The Ambassadors from the City State of Binding Light."

Some of those are clearly deliberately daft, but "The Adherents of the Repeated Meme" and "The City State of Binding Light" are lovely and evocative, and several of the others hint at a much wider world and older history - what is Financial Family Seven? And doesn't it say a lot about the society they emerged from that they hold that name (and, clearly, position of esteem)? What's a "Hypo-Slip Travel System"? Why are Mr and Mrs Pakoo so notable that they don't even have a preamble?

Really lovely stuff, and really just a couple of seconds of set dressing for the story itself.

Meanwhile, Chibnall has central characters and places with such ugly and charmless names as Ranskoor Av Kolos, Ux and Ko Sharmus. I had to look all those up, too - couldn't remember a single one.

Fuck off, Chris, you're fucking shit at everything.

In the idle moments where I've found myself wondering what it'd be like if I had my own Doctor Who series or spinoff, one change that I've considered is getting rid of the TARDIS translation circuit - see how the Doctor and the companions (and the viewers!) have to manage without everything translated into English for them. But it's only just occured to me that that's what makes RTD's alien names so strangely compelling and Chibnalls' so graceless - the latter are obviously supposed to be the original alien languages, but with nothing else to go on beyond vague bouba/kiki-type assocations they may as well be just random syllables. By contrast, because RTD's names and titles are often in the language of the audience, we understand the meaning behind the words but we're still left to draw our own conclusions about their contexts and origins, as you've so artfully explored with the Platform One guests and the wider worlds they hint at. (Not even going to dignify Chibs' Meringue Galaxy with any commentary)

[purlieu]

It doesn't work because Chibnall came up with the alien's real name as well.  It's not a brilliant twist on something established or recognisable, it's Chibnall coming up with an alien name specifically to twist it into "Tim Shaw".

It's not meant to be a brilliant twist, it's just an alien whose name sounds amusingly like a mundane human name, and the Doctor uses that as a way to try and knock his confidence in a silly way.

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

By contrast, because RTD's names and titles are often in the language of the audience, we understand the meaning behind the words but we're still left to draw our own conclusions about their contexts and origins

remembering how the 'jaws of the nightmare child' was such a fun bizarre thing to imagine. cribnels would deffo call it something incomprehensible, meaningless and without anything for the audience to do anything with

[Norton Canes]

It's not meant to be a brilliant twist, it's just an alien whose name sounds amusingly like a mundane human name, and the Doctor uses that as a way to try and knock his confidence in a silly way

Yeah, it works as a throwaway gag. The only other time I can remember laughing at anything Chris Chibnall has written (yes, I know) was in The Ghost Monument when Ryan (who has vertigo, remember? Keep up!) opens a hatchway to discover a ladder and says "Ladders? Why does it always have to be ladders?"

[Mister Six]

I'll also grant Chibnall the gag in Resolution about UNIT being shelved because Donald Trump withdrew funding. Actual satirical content, a funny surprise and relevant to the plot. Of course, he fucked it up with the tautological "we're going to have to talk?" cutaway to the family after Graham had already made a joke about how painful it was going to be to not have telly or the internet on New Year's Day[.nb]They would have been spared watching Resolution, at least.[/nb]

Fuck off Chris, fuck off Chris, fuck off Chris.

just want to get a word in at this juncture to say capaldi's outfit really suited her and i fucking loathe her adult baby's outfit she's gone with without variation for the entire run

I absolutely second this motion.

with nothing else to go on beyond vague bouba/kiki-type assocations

Coo, I'd never heard of that before! Fascinating.

[GoblinAhFuckScary]

graham has made me laugh a few times. i actively like graham and i do so wish he was in a better run

barrowman has fucked everything up, but the scene where jack mistakes him for the doctor is some fab comedy acting on walsh's part



"ah"

[Mister Six]

Yeah, Walsh's performance is an object lesson in talent transcending the material. And before we go back to litigating Jodie's performance, I think it's appropriate to point out that Graham did at least have a consistent character, traits and a solid backstory. Possibly because he's closer to Chibnall's actual life as a middle-aged man than any of the others.

Who made the observation that one of the problems is that The Doctor is the audience identification point rather than the companions? It's very true, and exacerbates the problem of Ryan and (especially, of course) Yaz being so thinly written.

[pigamus]

It's not meant to be a brilliant twist, it's just an alien whose name sounds amusingly like a mundane human name, and the Doctor uses that as a way to try and knock his confidence in a silly way.

Yes, it's a good joke, but the fact that's the only decent joke he's ever come up with only proves he's every bit the dullard that Replies always says he is.

[frajer]

Yes, it's a good joke, but the fact that's the only decent joke he's ever come up with only proves he's every bit the dullard that Replies always says he is.

It's also in the same episode where a comedy drunkard throws his takeaway salad at an alien while yelling "Eat my salad, Halloween." Terrible. Even in a half-decent episode, that whole bit reeks of Torchwood, and is an early sign Chibnall doesn't have a fucking clue how to judge tone or write good dialogue.

[Alberon]

Yes, it's a good joke, but the fact that's the only decent joke he's ever come up with only proves he's every bit the dullard that Replies always says he is.

It's not an original joke anyway. In DC comics the Martian Manhunter is called J'onn J'onzz and first appeared in 1955. Stuck on Earth he takes the human name John Jones.

[Mister Six]

Alien taking a conveniently similar Earth name as a cover identity isn't the same as alien being irritated because its enemies keep calling it by a mundane-but-similar Earth name.

Chibnall is incompetent to an unbelievable degree for a professional (indeed, career) television writer, but there's no need to stretch this far to undercut one of the few half-decent things he managed to squeeze out.