Extinction Rebellion London protests begin

[Sebastian Cobb]

Unfortunately, it's hard to view western consumer efforts at greening society - separating recycling, flying less, buying a hybrid car or using bikes or public transport - as anything other than a very elaborate set of 21st Century religious ceremonies. The biggest polluters in the world by far are still very large corporations. Rather than bullying people into wearing entirely ineffective hair shirts, it might be better to turn public attention to that. This is a thing being done to all of us, not a thing we are doing.

Shaming people into doing things is rarely successful, and in this case it's pretty much immoral as the sacrifices that they'll make are almost entirely pointless.

This isn't related to ER, given they're going after corps, however the flying one is intriguing... air travel makes up less than 3% of global co2[nb]https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-aviation[/nb], and is also barely used in food transportation[nb]https://ourworldindata.org/food-transport-by-mode[/nb] (where method of transportation rarely makes much difference[nb]https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-emissions-supply-chain?country=Beef+%28beef+herd%29~Cheese~Poultry+Meat~Milk~Eggs~Rice~Pig+Meat~Peas~Bananas~Wheat+%26+Rye~Fish+%28farmed%29~Lamb+%26+Mutton~Beef+%28dairy+herd%29~Shrimps+%28farmed%29~Tofu~Maize[/nb]), contrary to popular belief.

What this would suggest is that it's not exactly efficient going after normal citizens/tourist flights given the little gains to be made there, and the fact there are other industries that can be de-carbonised comparatively easy. That does mean extra expansion should be contested to stop the numbers rising further, and I'd argue businesses have a duty to not ferry staff around if they can bore them via conference calls instead (and conferences are pointless jollies too), but I feel it also does point to the attention air travel gets as being disproportionate compared to other sectors (we even see people on here trying to pillory people for taking a relatively modest number of getaways occasionally).

[The Mollusk]

Huge march going through central London at the moment. Been working there all day so had the pleasure of wading through the thick of it to get to the tube earlier. I couldn't help but have a chekky sigh and an eye roll to myself over the futility of the whole thing. It is kind of lame.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Even by your own reaction they are sort of proving it isn't. It would be futile if it got no attention at all, but instead it has loads of attention. There are layers of objectives and while the final objective hasn't been achieved by pratting about on some roads, loads of smaller ones have been.

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

Huge march going through central London at the moment. Been working there all day so had the pleasure of wading through the thick of it to get to the tube earlier. I couldn't help but have a chekky sigh and an eye roll to myself over the futility of the whole thing. It is kind of lame.

I don't think inconveniencing commuters is the way to go on this.  Better of rioting. 

[Mrs Wogans lemon drizzle]

When I am on the bus on the Cowley Road stuck in a long line of car traffic I do wonder if some of those people could have walked, cycled (although dangerous on Oxford's roads) or taken a bus.

Yeah, I tend to cycle most places in Oxford, given how small it is.  Cowley road can be a bid dicey though. 

[greenman]

Unfortunately, it's hard to view western consumer efforts at greening society - separating recycling, flying less, buying a hybrid car or using bikes or public transport - as anything other than a very elaborate set of 21st Century religious ceremonies. The biggest polluters in the world by far are still very large corporations. Rather than bullying people into wearing entirely ineffective hair shirts, it might be better to turn public attention to that. This is a thing being done to all of us, not a thing we are doing.

Shaming people into doing things is rarely successful, and in this case it's pretty much immoral as the sacrifices that they'll make are almost entirely pointless.

I do tend to think that sadly as with Corbyn the reception XR has gotten really reveals just how little support fhere is for enviromentalism in the establishment.

That a lot of liberal environmentalism pushed in the media/politics isnt just mistakenly focused its actually cynical manipulation to distract from the role of larger polluters and make sure the public feels guilty enough that they don't push for tougher measures against them.

[Dusty Substance]

Seriously, they *have* to change tactics. Going by the reaction on social media, these recent protests have massively backfired. Even more than last time. Gail Bradbrook came across terribly on that TalkRadio interview and then proceeded to get ratioed to fuck on Twitter.

XR need to re-think their entire strategy. They need to look to at how someone like Farage was able to appeal to a large portion of the population.

I dearly want XR to get their message across to corporations, politicians and the general public, but they're never going to the way they're acting now.

I'm old enough to remember when The Green Party was considered something of a fringe joke - Hippies, lentils and all that. But I've spoken to people in recent years who voted for them in recent elections who never would have done so in the 90s.

I don't care how it sounds, but all the dressing up, disco dancing in front of Buckingham Palace a couple of years back, disruption of ordinary people's already difficult commute, is utterly counterproductive.

[Dex Sawash]

Ordered myself one of those cool as fuck giant pink tables so I can help the environment

[The Mollusk]

Even by your own reaction they are sort of proving it isn't. It would be futile if it got no attention at all, but instead it has loads of attention. There are layers of objectives and while the final objective hasn't been achieved by pratting about on some roads, loads of smaller ones have been.

Yeah I'd like to retract my above cynicism and chalk it up to ROIDS which did my emotions in a fair bit yesterday. As my fiancée pointed out it's super important that we take note of the positives here too, such as the fact that we have the freedom to do things like this and should absolutely continue to do so with all of the little power we have.

Still though I say give it a week and if nothing changes people need to start slashing faces and digging up dead relatives and stuff.

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

A surprising amount of progress is made by pester power, finding ways to make an issue constantly front page so even some Tories go 'oh ffs jesus.. fine'. I think XR has filled in the gaps between the media's obsession with 'weather events' and the gradually increasing extremes and frequency of those weather events to the extent that it is occupying most people's consciousness even if on a low level, and makes it less likely people will look at the protestors and think : ASS CLOWNS

Renewable energy is massively viable for the UK, as is wide scape transition from plastics.

XR will always be gatekeeped as they recognise mass migration from a global climate crisis will lead to resource scarcity which will lead to war and devastation, which will lead to further mass migration, the only possible answer to which is a form of international socialism, constraining waste, forcing equitable distribution of wealth and resources and scaling down emissions and effectively demilitarising our growth based economy and inverting it so abundance is enjoyed by all in a totally different way.

Right now the entire corporate world is armed to protect that happening at all costs. But the fun thing is, it can no longer be denied, they can now see a future they are terrified of on the horizon.

Capitalisms answer to Covid was temporary socialism for the West. Capitalisms answer to its own debt crisis in 2008 was temporary socialism, bailing out all the money investors had lost and nationalising failing banks. Turn on the money machines so our governments aren't overthrown as they all deserved to be. Will be interesting to see how far they are prepared to take this to save themselves in the future.

[Paul Calf]

Faously, this cartoon tells the story:



But the response to the 2008 crisis: I find it hard to call that socialism. From another perspective, it was gangster capitalists saving each others' arses with the money of the proletariat while throwing the proletariat under a bus.

[Paul Calf]

Sadly, leftycartoons.com hasn't implemented ssl and is now unavailable to people unprepared to go through a series of terrifying warnings from their AV and browser.

[Greg Torso]

eh nevermind

[Zetetic]

If 2008 and 2020 sketch the future of state intervention...

Anyway, more signs that the HS2 eastern branch will be scrapped. A victory for XR activists?

Welsh Gov continues to press forward on mini-nuclear. A defeat for XR activists?

[Fambo Number Mive]

The HS2 eastern branch sounds to me more useful than the London-Birmingham part. Were XR protesting about the whole project or just the effects on areas like Jones Hill Wood which appear to be all along the London-Birmingham section?

[Paul Calf]

None of it is really useful though, is it, in terms of a crumbling rail infrastructure starved of spending on an island where all the major cities are all within 4 1/12 hours' rail journey already?

[Zetetic]

Yeah, it is to alleviate competition for track-capacity on existing lines.

[Paul Calf]

Do the new lines have to be high-speed though? Wouldn't just building some more standard lines be more cost-effective?

[Zetetic]

If you mean that it might be cheaper up-front, I guess you could 1) make the track bed shitter and 2) maybe save some tunnelling costs, so you can regret both in a few years for centuries to come.

[Zetetic]

Would fit more pleasingly with other parts of our railway infrastructure, I guess[nb]Like the tunnel that's been repeatedly destroying all the rails and other equipment in it for the last 135 years and is 26 minutes away from flooding completely at any time, because the Victorians fucked up. [/nb].

[Sebastian Cobb]

Is it true that this is the sacred land that they're trying to stop HS2 for?


Worth noting:

[Sebastian Cobb]

Do the new lines have to be high-speed though? Wouldn't just building some more standard lines be more cost-effective?

I think the idea is to shove passengers onto the HS2 line to free up the WCML for freight, to reduce all this:


Generally building inadequate infrastructure costs money in the long run.

[idunnosomename]

Can someone please explain why these protestors arrest a head of broccoli

https://twitter.com/Lordie__/status/1430262591968980994

(Almost certainly from a couple years ago)

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Faously, this cartoon tells the story:



But the response to the 2008 crisis: I find it hard to call that socialism. From another perspective, it was gangster capitalists saving each others' arses with the money of the proletariat while throwing the proletariat under a bus.

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor. They got a safety net, and they were nationalised (regardless of what happened after that). I didn't call the whole post-crash project socialist, just pointing out, as the above that they are quick to dip into the old debunked textbooks when it suits them as none of them have the courage to actually sit through the democratic consequences of living through the consequences of their own ideology as that would mean seeing their psychopathic vampiric system collapse in front of them.

[Butchers Blind]

Can someone please explain why these protestors arrest a head of broccoli

https://twitter.com/Lordie__/status/1430262591968980994

(Almost certainly from a couple years ago)

Bunch of soapy twats.

[Paul Calf]

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor. They got a safety net, and they were nationalised (regardless of what happened after that). I didn't call the whole post-crash project socialist, just pointing out, as the above that they are quick to dip into the old debunked textbooks when it suits them as none of them have the courage to actually sit through the democratic consequences of living through tue consequences of their own ideology as that would mean seeing their psychopathic vampiric system collapse in front of them.

It wasn't aimed solely or directly at you. What happened after 2008 - and at other times in history - is often called 'socialism for the rich', but I'm not sure that socialism for the rich can really be called socialism. It doesn't really detract from the unassailable point that the wealthy display solidarity with each other when the going gets tough and strenuously discourage everyone else from doing so, but I do wonder what the result of conjuring with terms like 'socialism for the rich' might be

[Fambo Number Mive]

Can someone please explain why these protestors arrest a head of broccoli

https://twitter.com/Lordie__/status/1430262591968980994

(Almost certainly from a couple years ago)

I imagine it's a satire on the way the police and justice system treat environmental protesters.

[GMTV]

This isn't related to ER, given they're going after corps, however the flying one is intriguing... air travel makes up less than 3% of global co2[nb]https://ourworldindata.org/co2-emissions-from-aviation[/nb], and is also barely used in food transportation[nb]https://ourworldindata.org/food-transport-by-mode[/nb] (where method of transportation rarely makes much difference[nb]https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-emissions-supply-chain?country=Beef+%28beef+herd%29~Cheese~Poultry+Meat~Milk~Eggs~Rice~Pig+Meat~Peas~Bananas~Wheat+%26+Rye~Fish+%28farmed%29~Lamb+%26+Mutton~Beef+%28dairy+herd%29~Shrimps+%28farmed%29~Tofu~Maize[/nb]), contrary to popular belief.

What this would suggest is that it's not exactly efficient going after normal citizens/tourist flights given the little gains to be made there, and the fact there are other industries that can be de-carbonised comparatively easy. That does mean extra expansion should be contested to stop the numbers rising further, and I'd argue businesses have a duty to not ferry staff around if they can bore them via conference calls instead (and conferences are pointless jollies too), but I feel it also does point to the attention air travel gets as being disproportionate compared to other sectors (we even see people on here trying to pillory people for taking a relatively modest number of getaways occasionally).

3% is a massive amount that can be reduced essentially immediately. No need for any decarbonising talk, just stop it now and it drops off straight away. It's not just the flights now it's the planned expansion in air travel globally. No more foreign holidays sadly, or you can go to the Maldives via horseback and rowing boat if you want.

Same with the Internet, I'm not sure the total % but it was supposed to be roughly there same or higher than air travel. Just make immediate curbs on Internet usage and there's another chunk saved. Again not just what's being done now, globally more and more people are having access which will only drive the emissions up further.

And the bigger obvious ones like restricting car usage and imports etc.

[Sebastian Cobb]

3% is a massive amount that can be reduced essentially immediately. No need for any decarbonising talk, just stop it now and it drops off straight away. It's not just the flights now it's the planned expansion in air travel globally. No more foreign holidays sadly, or you can go to the Maldives via horseback and rowing boat if you want.

Same with the Internet, I'm not sure the total % but it was supposed to be roughly there same or higher than air travel. Just make immediate curbs on Internet usage and there's another chunk saved. Again not just what's being done now, globally more and more people are having access which will only drive the emissions up further.

And the bigger obvious ones like restricting car usage and imports etc.

This is ill-thought out unworkable nonsense, frankly.

[GMTV]

This is ill-thought out unworkable nonsense, frankly.

Sorry, decarbonising existing industries it is then