Centrism

[gerostock]

Lenin was socially conservative. He held traditional views on sex, art, marriage etc.

Modern British society is neither progressive nor conservative, it's permissive. Pretty much everyone agrees that the government shouldn't be in the business of imposing cultural values.

[Johnny Yesno]

Biggest problem with humanity is its apparent need to join some kind of ism.

Yes, humanity would be better off staying away from jism.

[Goldentony]

my mate dave killed a rat once with a golf club but it was a fuck off rat and a really shit quality type of joke club you used to playing golf in the park where youd twat a ball and whoever got furthest won, anyway when it happened he went

SHIT, LAD, GANGSTER HOMICIDE

which was fair enough but I asked him why it had to happen and he said

WE ALL HAVE ISM

[Shoulders?-Stomach!]

Johnny foreigner trying to stab me in London while presumably quoting from the Koran

Yeah jeez all the damn time, still, I have got lucky so far as they don't have a knife so they are just trying to stab me with the Koran while also reading it at the same time.

[Johnny Yesno]

Johnny foreigner trying to stab me in London while presumably quoting from the Koran (my arabic is seriously rusty)

In future, maybe check what text you're quoting instead of presuming.

[JaDanketies]

The BNP's economic views are more socialisty than the average

[MikeP]

In future, maybe check what text you're quoting instead of presuming.

So I should tell him to hang fire on the attack while we establish which tome is being quoted? Ignoring advice like that is one of the reasons I'm still alive. In the heat of the moment it is tricky to perform simultaneous translation from arabic then identify its origin.

[Buelligan]

Must we really have this?

[MikeP]

Must we really have this?

Probably not, but it depends which 'we' we belong to.

[Buelligan]

Humans. 

[Jockice]

I'll just say here that one bloke on my politics degree course claimed to be a Marxist and made some very points during discussions (he got a first) but in private conversation (ie, when there were no black or Asian students around) he was horribly racist. Like the kid I knew as a teenager who was a massive Jam fan but also a Tory I can't see how he could combine the two things. But that's just me.

[Paul Calf]

Like the kid I knew as a teenager who was a massive Jam fan but also a Tory...

David Cameron?

[Jockice]

David Cameron?

Nope. But he does share a surname with a well-known former Conservative MP. Don't know if they were related. Don't care either. He was a tosser.

[TrenterPercenter]

I'll just say here that one bloke on my politics degree course claimed to be a Marxist and made some very points during discussions (he got a first) but in private conversation (ie, when there were no black or Asian students around) he was horribly racist. Like the kid I knew as a teenager who was a massive Jam fan but also a Tory I can't see how he could combine the two things. But that's just me.

I think we've spoken about this lad before but I've highlighted what is important.  The rightwing claim that Marxists are the same as hitler and want to usher in feminism and destroy the West and it's traditional christian values.  Meanwhile centrists call Marxists violent nationalists and sleeper cell authoritarians and leftwing identity politics driven individuals call Marxists racist, anti-feminists who use socialism as a code for lets only help the whiteys.

To be a Marxist has historically been to invoke the role of the misrepresented, abused, oppressed and murdered (it's completely lost on all these groups that it was immigrant, jewish, black, female and 'white-male' Marxists that have been murdered over the centuries for the crime of trying to progress a fairer society for the majority).  I mean we've just allowed the re-writing of Niermollers famous poem "first they came for the socialists" because it is just convenient for each of these groups in their own ways to see Marxists as somekind of negative force in the world.

Largely this down to these groups self-interest and a reliance on people never bothering to read anything much about what someone like Marx (or the lots of people before him) said; or even understand simple things like.

Marx = a person.
Marxism = a method of analysis.
Socialism = an economic model.
Communism = a form (or not as the case maybe) of government.

It's all pretty fucked and depressingly being further fucked not just by the usual right-wingers that have a vested interest in lying about Marxists.  The only solution I can think of here is that we try and formulate a way in which to identify individuals that are not helpful to leftwing causes and manage them (no not gulag them but address their concerns or highlight how destructive their behaviour is to causes people claim to want to pursue).

[Jockice]

I think we've spoken about this lad before but I've highlighted what is important.  The rightwing claim that Marxists are the same as hitler and want to feminism and destroy the West and it's traditional christian values.  Meanwhile centrists call Marxists violent nationalists and sleeper cell authoritarian and leftwing identity politics driven individuals call Marxists racist, anti-feminists who use socialism as a code for lets only help the whiteys.

To be a Marxist has historically been to in role of the misrepresented, abused, oppressed and murdered (it's completely lost on all these groups that it was immigrant, jewish, black, female and 'white-male' Marxists that have been murdered over the centuries for the crime of trying a progress a fairer society for the majority).  I mean we've just allowed the re-writing of Niermollers famous poem "first they came for the socialists" because it is just convenient for each of these groups in their own ways to see Marxists as somekind of negative force in the world.

Largely this down to these groups self-interest and a reliance on people never bothering to read anything much about what someone like Marx (or the lots of people before him) said; or even understand simple things like.

Marx = a person.
Marxism = a method of analysis.
Socialism = an economic model.
Communism = a form (or not as the case maybe) of government.

It's all pretty fucked and depressingly begin fucked not just by the usual right-wingers that have a vested interest in lying about Marxists.  The only solution I can think of here is that we try and formulate a way in which to identify individuals that are not helpful to leftwing causes and manage them (no not gulag them but address their concerns or highlight how destructive their behaviour is to causes people claim to want to pursue).

We have yeah, that's why I put the 'claimed to be' prefix this time. He was a tosser too. And looked like Shaun Ryder at his very worst. Glad I've never seen him since the course ended.I wouldn't call him a lad though. It was a lifelong learning degree and he was well into his 30s at the time. Old enough to have known better anyway.

[Johnny Yesno]

So I should tell him to hang fire on the attack while we establish which tome is being quoted? Ignoring advice like that is one of the reasons I'm still alive. In the heat of the moment it is tricky to perform simultaneous translation from arabic then identify its origin.

Some people don't deserve jokes.

[jamiefairlie]

Marx = a person.
Marxism = a method of analysis.
Socialism = an economic model.
Communism = a form (or not as the case maybe) of government.

Excellent summary. I wish eedjits banging on about socialism without mentioning the economic structure would get this.

[canadagoose]

I think we've spoken about this lad before but I've highlighted what is important.  The rightwing claim that Marxists are the same as hitler and want to usher in feminism and destroy the West and it's traditional christian values.  Meanwhile centrists call Marxists violent nationalists and sleeper cell authoritarians and leftwing identity politics driven individuals call Marxists racist, anti-feminists who use socialism as a code for lets only help the whiteys.

To be a Marxist has historically been to invoke the role of the misrepresented, abused, oppressed and murdered (it's completely lost on all these groups that it was immigrant, jewish, black, female and 'white-male' Marxists that have been murdered over the centuries for the crime of trying to progress a fairer society for the majority).  I mean we've just allowed the re-writing of Niermollers famous poem "first they came for the socialists" because it is just convenient for each of these groups in their own ways to see Marxists as somekind of negative force in the world.

Largely this down to these groups self-interest and a reliance on people never bothering to read anything much about what someone like Marx (or the lots of people before him) said; or even understand simple things like.

Marx = a person.
Marxism = a method of analysis.
Socialism = an economic model.
Communism = a form (or not as the case maybe) of government.

It's all pretty fucked and depressingly being further fucked not just by the usual right-wingers that have a vested interest in lying about Marxists.  The only solution I can think of here is that we try and formulate a way in which to identify individuals that are not helpful to leftwing causes and manage them (no not gulag them but address their concerns or highlight how destructive their behaviour is to causes people claim to want to pursue).

I don't know how you've not come across loads of people who claim to be "Marxists" and "socialists" but hate minorities of various sorts. They are everywhere and keep getting away with it "because they're the good guys on everything else". I'm personally sick of them.

[servese43]

Bob Katter is another example of someone who's right-wing socially and left-wing fiscally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Katter#Political_views

[TrenterPercenter]

I don't know how you've not come across loads of people who claim to be "Marxists" and "socialists" but hate minorities of various sorts. They are everywhere and keep getting away with it "because they're the good guys on everything else". I'm personally sick of them.

I don't doubt they exist but I can't think of a single person I've met that would claim to be a Marxist and hate minorities.  If I did meet such a person then I would love to have a chat with them about how they think Marxism informs their hatred of minorities.

It's really easy to to say I met someone with X political views and they were racist but what do think is informing that; Marxism? Socialism? Probably the method of analysis and economic theory that has involved itself in and of the lives of minorities more than any other.

This is the real problem; the complete disinterest in what these things are about on all fronts; if you claim to Marxist but are deleting the incredible world changing history of black Marxism of Marxist feminism then I think your Marxist credentials are very much in question.

What you appear to be working on is, like Jockice, people that are primarily cunts that claim to be Marxists or Socialists, still I've not seen many; that Paul Embry keeps being referenced as if he is a Marxist when he just, like fascists, Farage and other plonkers promotes some (and it is only some) aspects of socialism because of it's a collective theory.  Paul Embry is just a bloke with a gob and is not representative of Marxism or Socialism in anyway; I really don't know who these phantom Marxist-racists are other than this plonker that you seem to think are out there.  Blue Labour isn't Marxist either it's probably more close to some kind of civic nationalism than anything else.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

I don't think you can understand Marxism without understand that because its offering up a theoretical model or critique rather than a philosophy of everything it 100% has to be focused upon particular struggles. While it describes a universal history which has a single subject, the revolutionary proletariat, its view of human life always begins with a particular conflict or contradiction. Both the diagnosis and the call to action begins there.

Both vulgar marxists and anti-marxists have held to the view that Marxism talks about class conflict as coming from everywhere at once, which is wrong. This is how Marxism is taught institutionally - Marx wrote about one universal global conflict between workers and capitalists, but now we're smart liberals who understand that there are many oppressions... its just wrong. Whether you like the idea of a single global conflict or not.

[TrenterPercenter]

Bob Katter is another example of someone who's right-wing socially and left-wing fiscally: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Katter#Political_views

You do realise this is just the same drivel that right-wingers throw out against lefties arguing that hitler was a "socialist".  I'm genuinely interested in how people cannot see this as the same rubbish.

Even the bit in that wiki page after this chaps alleged leftism (opposing privatisation and deregulation) says "citation needed"; presuming it is true; there is this quite important thing about Marxism and Socialism in that it has to be "international" hence why you have the "international movements" the reason why it became international is because to attend to its essentially humanist foundations it does not see nationality as a positive segregating force in the world.

Hence way national socialism is something very different and in opposition to Marxism despite it using in part the economic model.

I thought we all knew this.

Ash Sarkar is a Marxist, Jeremy Corbyn is a Socialist, The Black Panthers were Marxist and so was Martin Luther King, Ana Mendieta was a feminist-cuban-Marxist, Franz Fanon was a Marxist, There is literally thousands and thousands of dead Jewish people that were minorites murdered for being Marxists, the communist party of Britain was founded by a Marxist-feminist (Dora Monteflore).  There are literally Marxist groups in the Middle East being murdered right now for trying to fight against nationalist regimes.....but for some reason Paul Embry is the embodiment of Socialism.

[Buelligan]

I don't want to be mean or hurt any feelings and I'm not directing this at any particular person but, IMO, Marxism is something that really does belong to the people.  Individuals who want to twirl their erudition to exclude others, gatekeep and complicate a thing like fucking Marxism should think on't.  It's a pure and natural thing, as obvious as breathing.  No fucking offence.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

t's a pure and natural thing, as obvious as breathing. 

Its not a fucking religion.

The idea that labour is a worthwhile subject for intellectual consideration is something too hard fought for to give up. Its too much of a mammoth achievement of thought to just call 'obvious'

Its good that dialectical thought is difficult because its subject matter deserves it. Saying people should just know things from direct experience and don't need thought or learning is degrading of working or disenfranchised people and the opposite of the Marxist spirit, which is just as much about emancipation of the intellectual world as it is about factories. The most involved, radical and effective marxists of the 20th century were intellectuals for a reason.

[TrenterPercenter]

I don't want to be mean or hurt any feelings and I'm not directing this at any particular person but, IMO, Marxism is something that really does belong to the people.  Individuals who want to twirl their erudition to exclude others, gatekeep and complicate a thing like fucking Marxism should think on't.  It's a pure and natural thing, as obvious as breathing.  No fucking offence.

I have lot of sympathy for this notion but goodness and kindness does not just emerge from telling people "it's like breathing".  It isn't complicated though and it is unnecessary and definitely counterproductive to be overly academic about things as it reduces access.  This however needs to be pitched against the amount of people projecting stuff onto these movements that don't actually understand them.

That isn't "gatekeeping" though, that is much more what goes on in your Labour misery threads.

[Video Game Fan 2000]

If something makes huge, sweeping claims about the world and tells people to act and think in ways radically different to how they usually act and think... probably good if its very complicated and difficult to learn, because at that point justification is going to be a wee bit more important than intuition.

People are inspired by Marx, and amused by the literary pretentions of his work. If he didn't have that and was just Hegel II: Correct Hegel people wouldn't be getting hyped generation over generation. Seeing someone treat issues like labour and alienation with the seriousness they deserve still feels like someone opening a window a century and a half later. If it was just "you already know this basically, lived experience and that. i'm just giving you a face to put on the flag" what would be the point

[TrenterPercenter]

You can get comics on it all now if you don't want to spend 10 weeks reading Das Kapital
https://existentialcomics.com/comic/203

[Video Game Fan 2000]

If that comic was accurate Karl when the door was knocked Karl would've gone "christ, the balliff!" and hid under the table while getting his wife to open to door

[TrenterPercenter]

Hehe that is quite funny that existential comics site.

There is an actual graphic novel of the communist manifesto though if people are interested; created by our very own Martin Rowson http://www.multiversitycomics.com/reviews/the-communist-manifesto/

[Buelligan]

Its not a fucking religion.

The idea that labour is a worthwhile subject for intellectual consideration is something too hard fought for to give up. Its too much of a mammoth achievement of thought to just call 'obvious'

Its good that dialectical thought is difficult because its subject matter deserves it. Saying people should just know things from direct experience and don't need thought or learning is degrading of working or disenfranchised people and the opposite of the Marxist spirit, which is just as much about emancipation of the intellectual world as it is about factories. The most involved, radical and effective marxists of the 20th century were intellectuals for a reason.

I have lot of sympathy for this notion but goodness and kindness does not just emerge from telling people "it's like breathing".  It isn't complicated though and it is unnecessary and definitely counterproductive to be overly academic about things as it reduces access.  This however needs to be pitched against the amount of people projecting stuff onto these movements that don't actually understand them.

That isn't "gatekeeping" though, that is much more what goes on in your Labour misery threads.

As I said, no fucking offence intended.  I think you should both maybe, read what I wrote again, in the context of the conversation in this thread.