Author Topic: Centrism  (Read 7145 times)

bgmnts

  • Depressed to the point of poisonous toxicity.
Centrism
« on: August 26, 2021, 07:32:16 PM »
This is a random thought, but obviously there are a lot of centrist out there who are, ostensibly, socially liberal but fiscally conservative (if that makes any sense in reality).

But are there any people who are fiscally left wing but socially traditional? Is that belief even possible? I've noticed I've never heard this opinion before.

Re: Centrism
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2021, 07:35:07 PM »
Blue Labour?

imitationleather

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Re: Centrism
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2021, 07:35:42 PM »
But are there any people who are fiscally left wing but socially traditional?

Isn't this nearly all Labour supporters until a few decades ago?

Re: Centrism
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2021, 07:35:54 PM »
Blue Labour?

Yeah, sounds just like them. Horrible people.

bgmnts

  • Depressed to the point of poisonous toxicity.
Re: Centrism
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2021, 07:37:11 PM »
Jesus christ totally forgot blue Labour existed.

Ignore this.

Re: Centrism
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2021, 07:40:13 PM »
A lot of the people who voted Sanders in 2016 but went with Biden in 2020 would've likely been along those lines tbh.
The issue is that kind of leftist would struggle to build up an initial support amongst the leftist base, so they'd never get to the point of being a candidate for much of anything.



Blue Labour don't really show much in the way of leftist credentials, do they?

Re: Centrism
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2021, 07:44:25 PM »
"the left shouldn't focus so much on economic equality!" + "no opinion on foreign policy, immigration"

Centrism and progressivism are the same, but progressivism is the one we're supposed to like because of all the positive words they use. Essentially both believe that things get better by themselves over time and we don't have to make any radical changes, just sit back and bask in the glow of incremental change because every change is a positive one because someone wanted it?

Its moral cowardice when it comes to ideas and values. It saves you the bother of having convictions and maybe being wrong about stuff, because politics is just the idea that Society is heading to a perfect future all on its own and you just have to loudly hate Trumps or Patriarchy or Kony2012 or whatever it seems to be resisting that inevitable march to an english speaking utopia.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 07:56:28 PM by Video Game Fan 2000 »

Sebastian Cobb

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Re: Centrism
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2021, 07:55:20 PM »
Blue Labour don't really show much in the way of leftist credentials, do they?

Yeah I thought Blue Labour were socially liberal (ostensibly... they consider themselves socially liberal, but that basically extends to 'tolerates the blacks and the gays') and economically conservative.

The blue being to signify they basically just don't like the branding, stigma and guilt of admitting they're tory, so are co-opting another party instead.

Re: Centrism
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2021, 07:59:46 PM »
Isn't this nearly all Labour supporters until a few decades ago?

It’s still likely to describe the vast majority of Labour voters.  It is why polling continuously shows support for left wing economic policies, whilst also showing popular support for the monarchy, the armed forces and a lot of anti-immigration shite.  People who’d want social care brought back into the NHS, whilst calling for hanging to be brought back for nonces.

They’re the reason why Labour has - correctly - pointed out for some time that their manifesto pledges have popular support.  And they’re the reason that despite this, Labour can get results like 2019.

It might not often be conveyed that so many sit in the ‘left of centre economically, but socially conservative’ bracket because so few political figures in the media - politicians or newspaper gobshites - fit into that category.  Yet I’d be willing to bet that there are more ‘left economics/right social’ people in the UK than ‘right economics/left social’.


gilbertharding

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Re: Centrism
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2021, 09:08:04 PM »
So is the answer, really, for the Labour Party to hold its nose (if it even has to) and just be - even maybe just pretend to be - a little bit racist?

Re: Centrism
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2021, 10:19:24 PM »
It is likely the thinking behind the 'racist mug' Labour had in 2015.

I've no idea what the solution is - PR might have been one, as the Labour Party would likely split to represent those different parts of the electorate.  It would have been nice to actually vote with my conscience - I would comfortably vote for a new democratic socialist party at that point, knowing that I'm not simply assisting the Tories.  The Labour Party is already a coalition in any case - only with genuine democracy, those component parts might be able to form a govt.  And common ground on socialist / social democratic economic policies is likely to reduce social conservatism in the long term (if like me, you're of the opinion that racism and nationalism is often fueled by economic injustices - the 'easy' explanation given to the working classes for their unnecessarily reduced circumstances).

Under the present system - Labour looks shagged until the Tories implode.  Which they will at some point.

Bingo Fury

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Re: Centrism
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2021, 12:09:05 AM »
But are there any people who are fiscally left wing but socially traditional? Is that belief even possible? I've noticed I've never heard this opinion before.

I seem to remember this was exactly how David Blunkett described himself.

Re: Centrism
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2021, 12:16:11 AM »
Isn't this nearly all Labour supporters until a few decades ago?

That was the Labour movement until a few decades ago and the shift from that explains the loss of the ‘red wall’ areas.

Re: Centrism
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2021, 12:37:21 AM »
Aren’t Blue Labour very antigay and anti-feminist? You know, women deep down don’t want jobs, we all want to be homemakers supporting our men?

Re: Centrism
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2021, 12:41:36 AM »
Angela Nagle, author of the book Kill All Normies, believes Incels/Jordan Petersen etc are right about a lot of problems in modern dating culture, mocks tumbler gender/disability culture, but seems to be economically socialist

Re: Centrism
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2021, 08:38:30 AM »
George Galloway.

Jumblegraws

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Re: Centrism
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2021, 09:31:24 AM »
The Daily Record caters to this political alignment, or at least it did in the 90s/2000s. I remember they were big fans of Section 28.

TrenterPercenter

  • Rock the CABLADs
Re: Centrism
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2021, 11:11:11 AM »
Aren’t Blue Labour very antigay and anti-feminist? You know, women deep down don’t want jobs, we all want to be homemakers supporting our men?

I very much doubt they are expressly anti-gay or anti-feminist - this is probably taking things a bit far, googling finds that they are on the TERF side of the the trans argument (no surprise) but TERFs are still feminists (I mean it is in the name).  I've no idea about their ideas on gay rights but I would be astounded in the modern age it they were openly anti-gay; I very much image it is pro-gay.

From my understanding its fault lines are immigration, defence and crime probably with some sympathies for organised (catholic) religion.

Re: Centrism
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2021, 12:20:52 PM »
There are plenty of self-proclaimed fiscally left, socially right folks, but they are disingenuous wankers to a man. The sort of prick who goes on about stopping foreign aid to help those starving at home, before moving to say that those starving at home don't actually need the money because they own a TV.

They are more than happy to put their hands in their pockets for a worthy cause but, alas, everyone's on the take, aren't they? All after something for nothing. Such a shame. The wallet will just have to stay shut.

Re: Centrism
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2021, 12:26:32 PM »
There are plenty of self-proclaimed fiscally left, socially right folks, but they are disingenuous wankers to a man. The sort of prick who goes on about stopping foreign aid to help those starving at home, before moving to say that those starving at home don't actually need the money because they own a TV.

They are more than happy to put their hands in their pockets for a worthy cause but, alas, everyone's on the take, aren't they? All after something for nothing. Such a shame. The wallet will just have to stay shut.

That seems more just right wing Tory to me, there being in favour of say the NHS(although not the wrong kind of help for the wrong people) and pensions seems to be the limit of any socialist tendencies.

Buelligan

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Re: Centrism
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2021, 12:28:19 PM »
I very much doubt they are expressly anti-gay or anti-feminist - this is probably taking things a bit far, googling finds that they are on the TERF side of the the trans argument (no surprise) but TERFs are still feminists (I mean it is in the name). 

Yeah but think NSDAP, a rose by any other name is not always a rose. 

And think Feminism - what is it?  Surely, equality (the pursuit of).  Whither equality where trans people are excluded?  Just as they think you need a cervix to be a woman, I think you need to believe in equality to be a decent feminist (or human).

Re: Centrism
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2021, 12:40:54 PM »
That seems more just right wing Tory to me, there being in favour of say the NHS(although not the wrong kind of help for the wrong people) and pensions seems to be the limit of any socialist tendencies.

The subtle difference is that your classic Tory starts from the position of not wanting to spend money. "Fiscal responsibility" being the cornerstone of everything. "We can't help because there's no money" as opposed to "We could help, but the money would just be wasted".

Re: Centrism
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2021, 03:33:22 PM »
Yeah but think NSDAP, a rose by any other name is not always a rose. 

And think Feminism - what is it?  Surely, equality (the pursuit of).  Whither equality where trans people are excluded?  Just as they think you need a cervix to be a woman, I think you need to believe in equality to be a decent feminist (or human).

Not really, feminism is/was about improving the situation of women. Whether you’re a racist or a homophobe doesn’t preclude you from being a feminist.

imitationleather

  • "The French... are famous... for their kissing"
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Re: Centrism
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2021, 03:37:24 PM »
Occasionally I've got into arguments with people who state a simple falsehood such as "You cannot be a socialist if you are racist or homophobic" as though it's a cast iron common sense truth but I always quickly realise debating with these people is way more trouble than it's worth and duck out.

chveik

  • crazy bit of business
Re: Centrism
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2021, 03:39:55 PM »
Not really, feminism is/was about improving the situation of women. Whether you’re a racist or a homophobe doesn’t preclude you from being a feminist.

transwomen are women

Re: Centrism
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2021, 03:42:17 PM »
I very much doubt they are expressly anti-gay or anti-feminist - this is probably taking things a bit far, googling finds that they are on the TERF side of the the trans argument (no surprise) but TERFs are still feminists (I mean it is in the name).  I've no idea about their ideas on gay rights but I would be astounded in the modern age it they were openly anti-gay; I very much image it is pro-gay.

From my understanding its fault lines are immigration, defence and crime probably with some sympathies for organised (catholic) religion.
I thought they said something about people being aggressively indifferent to homosexuality.

Re: Centrism
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2021, 03:43:43 PM »
Not really, feminism is/was about improving the situation of women. Whether you’re a racist or a homophobe doesn’t preclude you from being a feminist.
Feminism shouldn't exclude lesbian or bi women or women of colour[1] though. It's supposed to be for women in general, not just straight middle-class white women.
 1. For want of a better term

Re: Centrism
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2021, 03:47:17 PM »
Not sure they're who jamiefairlie is looking to exclude

Re: Centrism
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2021, 03:53:08 PM »
transwomen are women

Some women don’t believe that though and they can still be feminists. Just as they can have any number of other opinions and still be feminists. This is a real problem for the modern Left, they believe there is a range of opinions that simply must go together. Not true, you can be a racist and not homophobic, you can believe in nationalisation and be a male chauvinist. People are complex and individuals.

Re: Centrism
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2021, 03:59:58 PM »
Not sure they're who jamiefairlie is looking to exclude

I’m not trying to exclude anyone. I’m trying to explain that your opinion in a single issue does not define your opinions on any other issue. Some feminists vote Tory, some vote Green. It doesn’t affect their feminist beliefs.

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