Author Topic: Workshy  (Read 4350 times)

bgmnts

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Workshy
« on: September 07, 2021, 02:38:02 PM »
I was watching (well..) some shit on something called The Steph Show or something and they were talking about the lack of British workers and the short term solution of bringing in the forrins what we want to kick out to work. They sort of inferred that a lot of young British people dont want to work in lots of labour intensive sectors and I just thought surely that is bollocks isn't it? Even the laziest fat cunts like me would be happy doing the graft if we actually had agency over our work, good conditions and shared in the fruits of labour. This is surely universal?

Are there actually any people out there who just outright refuse the notion of hard work, regardless? Have you met anyone like that?

Re: Workshy
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2021, 02:41:01 PM »
I hate hard work. I'd like nothing more than being able to sit on my fat arse doing fuck all, all day every day. Doing fuck all > job you like > death > job you hate

Chollis

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2021, 02:43:49 PM »
Are there actually any people out there who just outright refuse the notion of hard work, regardless? Have you met anyone like that?

God no, never!

Re: Workshy
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2021, 02:45:34 PM »
I hate hard work. I'd like nothing more than being able to sit on my fat arse doing fuck all, all day every day. Doing fuck all > job you like > death > job you hate

Yeah this. Work is a big scam a lot of the time. Everyday off is one over on the man. Although there is a limit. I want to get a job again soon for my own sanity and a few extra bob in the account.

Sebastian Cobb

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2021, 02:58:46 PM »
I dunno the way you're saying 'hard labour' isn't really selling it to me, it implies the work is still unfulfilling and hard work so while I'd prefer more money and more agency, if I had to do it, I'd rather not do it.

Buelligan

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2021, 03:36:48 PM »
I hate hard work. I'd like nothing more than being able to sit on my fat arse doing fuck all, all day every day. Doing fuck all > job you like > death > job you hate

Not sure I agree.  Why do people have hobbies like restoring shite or allotmenting or clock making or you know, loads of stuff like that?  If they all wanted to sit on their fat arses, why are they poncing about with metal detectors or putting up bat boxes?  Asking for a friend.

metaltax

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2021, 03:38:28 PM »
Even the laziest fat cunts like me would be happy doing the graft if we actually had agency over our work, good conditions and shared in the fruits of labour.

If you have all of that it's not hard work, it's just work.

bgmnts

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2021, 03:39:00 PM »
If you have all of that it's not hard work, it's just work.

Well, you know what I mean by hard work. Intense work or demanding work.

Buelligan

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2021, 03:42:02 PM »
I know what you mean, you mean not sat round drinking tea, chatting about the telly and secretly playing some game on your phone whilst really hating someone else for opening or closing the blinds, actually being somewhere where active physical work is happening.

touchingcloth

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2021, 03:51:24 PM »
Well, you know what I mean by hard work. Intense work or demanding work.

Define "work" then we can talk about what hard, intense and demanding mean.

My hunch is that a cost-benefits analysis is what might cause young British workers to have an aversion to some kinds of work. If a potential benefit of work is getting, say, a foot on the housing ladder and a pension which will keep you in comfort in your old age, how much progress towards that goal will spending a summer picking soft fruits in a Marches farm get you, and is the experience of the job worth that progress? If a potential benefit of work is around ideas of agency, satisfaction in a job well done, providing wider benefits to society, how far towards that does the same summer job get you, and is it worth it?

Some forrins may have different views on the costs and/or benefits than some young British workers.

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2021, 03:58:45 PM »
The 'hard, labour intensive' jobs they are referring to often have awful pay and conditions and the only reason the associated businesses operate is because of being able to recruit people for whom the pay is still superior than a better job in their home country.

The result of that is often cheap goods, but the beneficiaries of those cheap goods are disproportionately rich people who can spend even less of their income on, let's say, fruit and veg, even though they can easily afford them.

Logically we should be trying to push pay and conditions of ordinary people up even at the cost of basic goods increasing with it. This has not bankrupted Denmark or Scandinavia.

It feels like we would all benefit from spending more time in different workplace environments to appreciate what that job is like and not take our own job, or what they do, for granted.

bgmnts

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2021, 04:01:14 PM »
Define "work" then we can talk about what hard, intense and demanding mean.

My hunch is that a cost-benefits analysis is what might cause young British workers to have an aversion to some kinds of work. If a potential benefit of work is getting, say, a foot on the housing ladder and a pension which will keep you in comfort in your old age, how much progress towards that goal will spending a summer picking soft fruits in a Marches farm get you, and is the experience of the job worth that progress? If a potential benefit of work is around ideas of agency, satisfaction in a job well done, providing wider benefits to society, how far towards that does the same summer job get you, and is it worth it?

Some forrins may have different views on the costs and/or benefits than some young British workers.

You are definitely thinking about it in a more pragmatic and real world way than me I'm just being a bit vague and utopian. Like if you told a young person, or anyone really, that they could graft all week but they'd own the means of production and benefit from the fruit of their labour, rather than just lining rich cunts' pockets, would they ever say nah I just wanna lie down all day?

Sebastian Cobb

  • bad opinion haver
Re: Workshy
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2021, 04:04:13 PM »
Not sure I agree.  Why do people have hobbies like restoring shite or allotmenting or clock making or you know, loads of stuff like that?  If they all wanted to sit on their fat arses, why are they poncing about with metal detectors or putting up bat boxes?  Asking for a friend.

These things are toiling but they're more like leisurely toiling away at a garden in your leisure rather than toiling away at you, your soul or body.

Sebastian Cobb

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2021, 04:05:43 PM »
You are definitely thinking about it in a more pragmatic and real world way than me I'm just being a bit vague and utopian. Like if you told a young person, or anyone really, that they could graft all week but they'd own the means of production and benefit from the fruit of their labour, rather than just lining rich cunts' pockets, would they ever say nah I just wanna lie down all day?

What if they collectively owned machinery that could do the work for them? Does that sound more utopian?

bgmnts

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2021, 04:06:33 PM »
What if they collectively owned machinery that could do the work for them? Does that sound more utopian?

Well of course but there would always be jobs.

Sebastian Cobb

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2021, 04:09:19 PM »
Well of course but there would always be jobs.

But it would decouple the amount of required work and the population size to some extent, only some people would have to do the few jobs the machines couldn't. Which is sort of what would happen anyway if you had more people than jobs and people to go round. Maybe the human jobs could be rota'd a bit like jury duty so everyone still gets more leisure time, or maybe they could be given to the few people who found them fulfilling.

touchingcloth

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2021, 04:20:14 PM »
You are definitely thinking about it in a more pragmatic and real world way than me I'm just being a bit vague and utopian. Like if you told a young person, or anyone really, that they could graft all week but they'd own the means of production and benefit from the fruit of their labour, rather than just lining rich cunts' pockets, would they ever say nah I just wanna lie down all day?

I'm not sure what this utopia is where the options are 1) graft all week, receive co-ownership of the means of production AND labour fruits in return, or 2) lie down all day.

Personally I'm in favour of something like UBI where option 1 is "do some form of paid work if you want to", and 2 is "lie down all day if you want to, or any other unpaid option e.g. stargazing, volunteering, wanking".

Whether or not you own the means of production, directly enjoy the fruits of your own labour, or line the pockets of a rich cunt become academic in that sort of world, because employment isn't the necessity that it is in the current world.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2021, 04:23:48 PM »
god it's almost like it's harder to exploit workers when they qualify for social welfare and have family who they can go to for support

bgmnts

  • Depressed to the point of poisonous toxicity.
Re: Workshy
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2021, 04:27:45 PM »
I'm not sure what this utopia is where the options are 1) graft all week, receive co-ownership of the means of production AND labour fruits in return, or 2) lie down all day.

Personally I'm in favour of something like UBI where option 1 is "do some form of paid work if you want to", and 2 is "lie down all day if you want to, or any other unpaid option e.g. stargazing, volunteering, wanking".

Whether or not you own the means of production, directly enjoy the fruits of your own labour, or line the pockets of a rich cunt become academic in that sort of world, because employment isn't the necessity that it is in the current world.

Well of course! We would all have a social safety net and UBI etc but there are surely very few people out there who would only want to veg out on the sofa for 40 years? Don't we all sort of want to create or produce something?

Shoulders?-Stomach!

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2021, 04:28:32 PM »
UBI is an incendiary, revolutionary tool, one reliant on other policies in order to work and not be subverted, which is probably why it stands no chance whatsoever.

However, 2 key things strike me as innately valuable.

1) Unchaining compulsion to work in order to survive.

2) Accountability. Allowing every citizen the time to pursue causes they care about, to join marches, to do all the volunteering and the campaigning they can't do when they are getting home at 8pm every day tired and hungry. Governments would suddenly be aware that they are one false move from millions marching to the capital.

One of the things a country powered by UBI would benefit from is a paradigm shift where politicians are accountable and the weak suddenly have a voice. Combine that with useful organising apps and you have the makings of a different future.

How we get from a consumerism propped up by cheap labour to there is another thing, but a political voice is a start.

Re: Workshy
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2021, 04:34:50 PM »
Today, I drove 45 minutes to the office for 9, did about an hour of genuine work, then feigned* work should anyone walk near me till about 2 , then an hours lunch till 3, then another couple of hours feigning work before the 45 minute drive home. I get about 26k plus yearly bonuses of upto 10k, although a lot less in the last couple of years due to the pandemic. Would anyone consider that a dream job?

*mainly chatting, making tea, dicking about on the internet

Sebastian Cobb

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2021, 04:36:13 PM »
Well of course! We would all have a social safety net and UBI etc but there are surely very few people out there who would only want to veg out on the sofa for 40 years? Don't we all sort of want to create or produce something?

What are people creating when doing hard labour though? You can tell yourself it's useful, if you're ploughing the field or something (which is more than can be said for paperwork creators in offices in many cases) but I find it doubtful people would do it to give themselves purpose. I think the idea with UBI is it would liberate them from having to do labour and fill up their time with side-hustles they actually enjoy.

bgmnts

  • Depressed to the point of poisonous toxicity.
Re: Workshy
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2021, 04:38:02 PM »
What are people creating when doing hard labour though? You can tell yourself it's useful, if you're ploughing the field or something (which is more than can be said for paperwork creators in offices in many cases) but I find it doubtful people would do it to give themselves purpose. I think the idea with UBI is it would liberate them from having to do labour and fill up their time with side-hustles they actually enjoy.

But then if that's the case then that means only the monetary incentive would get people working most jobs, most of the actual needed jobs. I'd like to think most of us would pitch in regardless.

Sebastian Cobb

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2021, 04:40:48 PM »
But then if that's the case then that means only the monetary incentive would get people working most jobs, most of the actual needed jobs. I'd like to think most of us would pitch in regardless.

I think you need to find a way for this undesirable work to be filled so that people don't feel obliged to "pitch in" for it to truly be utopian. I think the idea that people need to be working or that it's better that humans are still doing the hard work when machines could potentially do the work instead is only inherently bad when people need to work to survive. If you could tax the profits of the machines adequately, or have them benefit the many by releasing them to chase their own pursuits, well that's not bad.

Re: Workshy
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2021, 04:54:39 PM »
I think I could be described as workshy, an idler, something of a malingerer at times. I'd love to say it was me seeing through the politics of it all, but I had some nice easy jobs that I couldn't take to at all. Put me in front of that computer screen, conveyor belt, pile of boxes, whatever - my mind just didn't want to do it, and would always wander and think what else I could be doing instead of this.

I've never earned more than £17k in a calendar year (am 38) and I got fired from that job, as I have been from loads of work. When I was younger I was apologetic for my failings but as I got older I became more hostile; walked out of jobs, actively dared people to fire me by breaking their dumb rules. I'm not born rich and can't really afford to slack off either, but dole life sucks worse than having a shit job most of the time.

It annoys me because my parents worked incredibly hard (my dad *literally* worked down the pit before I was born) and developed this dawn 'til dusk attitude about work both for bread and to keep a household going. I do my bit around the house, but to be honest Mrs 7D always thinks it is too slow, slapdash, and not exactly done with alacrity. 'cos it's fuckin' work, maan. Pathetic.

I never had an idea of a career until recently but I still only work precariously in my line of work. I'm fumbling towards some kind of success and it sort of frightens me, but at least it is something that isn't earning money for some terrific cunt and has outcomes that I actually believe in. But even in this role I cut corners, slack off, leave things late, etc. I'm even doing it now by writing this, which was harder and longer than the thing I was meant to do.

touchingcloth

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2021, 04:56:12 PM »
Well of course! We would all have a social safety net and UBI etc but there are surely very few people out there who would only want to veg out on the sofa for 40 years? Don't we all sort of want to create or produce something?

I honestly don't know, and the point of UBI is that it shouldn't matter. I think that some people probably would only want to veg out, but to go back to the OP I don't see that as being a uniquely British attitude towards the idea of creation and production. I would say that I do see the attitude from the OP among British workers, but I think it's down to things like the housing situation in the UK, austerity in the UK, and plentiful[1] supply of cheaper labour from outside the UK.
 1. Or some value of plentifulness

Sebastian Cobb

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2021, 05:04:12 PM »
I honestly don't know, and the point of UBI is that it shouldn't matter. I think that some people probably would only want to veg out, but to go back to the OP I don't see that as being a uniquely British attitude towards the idea of creation and production. I would say that I do see the attitude from the OP among British workers, but I think it's down to things like the housing situation in the UK, austerity in the UK, and plentiful[1] supply of cheaper labour from outside the UK.
 1. Or some value of plentifulness

And we are kind of a service economy too. I think this is an important thing psychologically. In times when people made things if you worked on a production line, you may not be a skilled worker, compared to say, a carpenter, but if you're making widgets it's easy to tell yourself "i make them, and they go in things people need". Nowadays lots of people are creating information society doesn't need, the only reason they're paid to do it is because a company thinks it's important for itself, or possibly worse, that information isn't useful to them but they can charge someone else for it and skim a bit off in the process. On a psychological level that is bad I think. It's a bit like how Russians used to break prisoners by making them move large volumes of water from one container and back again, for no reason at all.

PlanktonSideburns

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2021, 05:06:46 PM »
Would gladly toil feildwize if I had a Ukrainian family I could spend my fortune with, but the sort of work they want, I’d be bailiffed from house and home two months in.

TrenterPercenter

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2021, 05:35:10 PM »
The 'hard, labour intensive' jobs they are referring to often have awful pay and conditions and the only reason the associated businesses operate is because of being able to recruit people for whom the pay is still superior than a better job in their home country.

Exactly feeds; into the conversation about liberals and FBPE types who were disgusted at the xenophobic elements of Brexit but were very happy for the forrins to a) work for shit wages and live on top of each other in shoddy accommodation and b) they did it all far away from them.

How we get from a consumerism propped up by cheap labour to there is another thing, but a political voice is a start.

We are neck deep in a culture that doesn't just tolerate elitism and competition; but sees it as the essence of life; people don't want to be "equals" they just don't want to be the one that at the bottom; hence why the psychology of Brexiteers was one of being betrayed by their country in allowing English nationals reduced to the statues of imported labour.

As you've pointed out UBI would need to deal with these problems; it couldn't just give money as markets would tailor around it and new inequalities would emerge. 

There is also the problem here in that UBI attributes wellbeing and a life lived to money; which is at best a partial truth as a safety net it works but as form of subsistence to "live off" there is already evidence of problems with this where it over laps with benefits and it doesn't always relate to people "doing what they want to do".

Btw we are all away that the inventor of UBI was Milton Friedman - not saying this rules it out; it should be taken on it's merits but there are quite a few neoliberal proponents of it.

Lemming

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Re: Workshy
« Reply #29 on: September 07, 2021, 05:58:05 PM »
I would lie around all day doing fuck all if given the chance. Only reason I held on for a couple years at Tesco was because I had a crush on the woman who stacked the aisles with me (not a euphemism).

In a hypothetical world where work isn't mandatory and isn't a prerequisite for economic survival, I assume the culture around it would massively change, and there'd be far less unnecessary stress surrounding work. No working unmanageable hours just to survive as your mind begins to flay, no constantly thinking "if I leave/get fired now I'll probably fucking die thanks to the welfare reforms of Sir George Iain Duncan Smith", no staying at it for months/years after your mind has already gone and you're doing everything on shitty inertia autopilot.

Also in Hypothetical Utopia World, there would presumably be far fewer useless hierarchies, and of course, less unnecessary, pointless jobs to start with. This would probably persuade a lot of people to go out and do something relatively worthwhile. In such a world, I could see myself going down to a local store and running the tills or stacking the shelves for a couple days a week purely to help out The Community and meet new people. But as it is right now, I'd genuinely rather just lay on the floor in a barely-surviving fugue state than deal with any of this shit.

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