Norm MacDonald has died

[BeardFaceMan]

He was a very funny person who did some nice things, some asshole things, was a bit of a misogynist and groped/creeped in excess of one woman. Now he is dead. Those are the facts, I'm not sure what it is you feel you need to do with them?

Use them to decide whether that's the type of person you want to get pleasure from?

[mr. logic]

Use them to decide whether that's the type of person you want to get pleasure from?

Yeah- and it's pretty much up to the individual isn't it, which I think was the point.

[SpiderChrist]

Yeah- and it's pretty much up to the individual isn't it, which I think was the point.

I've thrown away all my Woody Allen books and DVDs, plus my Michael Jackson albums, my John Lennon albums, my James Brown albums, my Smiths albums, anything produced by Phil Spector repeat ad fucking nauseum

[QDRPHNC]

There was something that bothered me about one of the initial big tweets about Norm's groping issues. And I've been hesitant to post it, because I don't want to be one of those men who minimizes these things.

The tweet said something like "for every piece of praise you're reading about Norm MacDonald, there are countless women who have a different experience with him." That's the gist of it. It was the "countless" that bothered me. I mean... countless women for each piece of praise? It made it seem that there was going to be an absolute tidal wave of allegations about to emerge.

I don't know why it lodged in my head. I mean... one victim is too many obviously. But if it's 1 or 10 or 30, then say that. Or "several" or "many". I don't know. And maybe it is petty of me to be bothered by it, but I also think that that kind of hyperbole is self-defeating, because it makes you brace for something much, much bigger which doesn't arrive, and makes what did happen seem smaller by comparison.

[to clarify, this wasn't some random tweet I read, it was one of the top ones trending the day he died]

[thelittlemango]

Surprised no-one has picked up on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IKvnT70saA

[Chriddof]

A new article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/20/opinion/norm-macdonald-christian-comedy.html

A famously reticent comedian, he did not often discuss his personal life, and his mannerisms were so flippant that it was often in doubt whether he had serious views about any subject. In his later years, however, he spoke and wrote at length not only about his belief in God but also, with more reluctance, about his opposition to abortion. ("I don't like saying it because it's unpopular," he said on Dennis Miller's radio program.)

...Ah.

[Dusty Substance]

The tweet said something like "for every piece of praise you're reading about Norm MacDonald, there are countless women who have a different experience with him." That's the gist of it. It was the "countless" that bothered me. I mean... countless women for each piece of praise? It made it seem that there was going to be an absolute tidal wave of allegations about to emerge.

I saw that Tweet and had a similar response. "Countless" irked me a little too. It's still possible that there will be scores of women who step forward to say that Norm was a monstorous sex pest over the years. Seems unlikely though, as whenever it turns out a celebrity is an abuser and rapist then it's something most of us had already heard rumours about - Most notably Weinstein, Savile and Cosby.

We'll see.

[13 schoolyards]

A big part of Macdonald's comedy seemed to be that his comedy existed outside of who he was and what he believed in his private life. I never saw him as someone like Louis CK where the deal was that he was a "decent guy" and no matter what he said to get a laugh he was supposedly clearly coming from this right-thinking place. He really worked hard to keep his private opinions private, because knowing what he really thought about things would limit the places his comedy could go - it seems like it was only in his final years that the mask slipped, and even then not by a whole lot.

Aside from that, if someone asked me "what should the punishment be for a comedian who in his private life was kinda sleazy, groped a number of women and held right-wing views I firmly disagree with", I suspect my reply would be something less than "a nine year private struggle with cancer that led to him dying well before his time"

[Huxwell]

Previously unpublished Rolling Stone interview: https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/norm-macdonald-lost-interview-1226722/

[BeardFaceMan]

He really worked hard to keep his private opinions private, because knowing what he really thought about things would limit the places his comedy could go

"I don't like saying it because it's unpopular"

Seems far more likely.

[13 schoolyards]

"I don't like saying it because it's unpopular"

Seems far more likely.

Considering how often he seemed perfectly willing to be unpopular if he thought it'd be funny, it seems even more likely he didn't talk about abortion because he didn't think abortion would get laughs.

Which is pretty much what he said here: https://uproxx.com/tv/norm-macdonald-interview-late-night-politics/

The only interesting guys are guys that think differently than every other single person. You know what I mean? If I was to interview anyone with a political spot, it would have to be someone that was way outside the mainstream. Or maybe not outside the mainstream. You could be in the majority. You could be a Trump supporter and be considered fringe in the media. You know? You could believe in abortion and be considered a lunatic, even though the majority of Americans vote against it. I'm sorry [I mean], you could be against abortion.

All that kind of stuff just depresses me and I find it dull. I never found important stuff to be that funny. It just makes the comic look as self-important as the figure that he's lampooning. Like the way that James Corden has to talk us through the Manchester attack or something. You know, it's kind of insulting.

[BeardFaceMan]

Considering how often he seemed perfectly willing to be unpopular if he thought it'd be funny, it seems even more likely he didn't talk about abortion because he didn't think abortion would get laughs.

Yeah but what you're talking about there is Norm talking about his personal views in his act, rather than just talking about his personal views, which is more what that "I don't like saying it because it's unpopular" quote is about.

[Twit 2]

Aside from that, if someone asked me "what should the punishment be for a comedian who in his private life was kinda sleazy, groped a number of women and held right-wing views I firmly disagree with", I suspect my reply would be something less than "a nine year private struggle with cancer that led to him dying well before his time"

But illness isn't a punishment for wrongdoing, unless you live in the Old Testament. We don't have judges handing out "a nasty cough" for shoplifting or "crippling diabetes" for a noncing. Norm didn't get any actual repercussions for his behaviour to women. Even now, it's barely being discussed. A better consequence would have been for him to have been confronted about it, to have had to apologise properly, maybe to have lost a bit or work or money (compensation to any victims) as a result, maybe have his credibility dented. As it is, it seems he's just another successful bloke who got a away being creepy towards women.

[13 schoolyards]

But illness isn't a punishment for wrongdoing, unless you live in the Old Testament. We don't have judges handing out "a nasty cough" for shoplifting or "crippling diabetes" for a noncing. Norm didn't get any actual repercussions for his behaviour to women. Even now, it's barely being discussed. A better consequence would have been for him to have been confronted about it, to have had to apologise properly, maybe to have lost a bit or work or money (compensation to any victims) as a result, maybe have his credibility dented. As it is, it seems he's just another successful bloke who got a away being creepy towards women.

Yeah, good point, I shouldn't have linked one to the other. Though I don't think he got away with much of anything really - at least some of these stories went public long before his death, they just weren't picked up widely.

He did apologise for his comments about #metoo, and I think that dented his credibility (his comments, not his apology). I suspect if there'd been more to these stories than what we currently know, it would have surfaced then when "Norm Macdonald, sexist creep" actually was an angle the media might have taken up.

On the flip side, for the last decade or so of his career he wasn't exactly a mainstream figure so the media probably didn't care about what he was up to. And if there had been a serious unmasking of him as a predator there's a reasonable chance he would have just ended up performing to the same size crowds, only they'd have been entirely composed of dudes cheering him on.

[BeardFaceMan]

Though I don't think he got away with much of anything really

He used to brag about pretending to be drunk so he could grope women, he got away with quite a lot. It's easy to see why he kept his personal opinions to himself with views like that, he wasn't stupid.

[13 schoolyards]

He used to brag about pretending to be drunk so he could grope women, he got away with quite a lot. It's easy to see why he kept his personal opinions to himself with views like that, he wasn't stupid.

And yet not smart enough to stop himself from bragging about it

[BeardFaceMan]

And yet not smart enough to stop himself from bragging about it

Which is why he's a turd of a human being, he didn't see it as doing anything wrong so why not brag about it? As soon as public opinion on that changed he stopped bragging about it though, thinking that shit was ok would be one of those "unpopular opinions" that he had.

[Chedney Honks]

Still can't believe he's dead, one of the funniest, most intelligent, instinctive comedians ever.

[SpiderChrist]

Watched the Hitler's Dog show on Netflix this morning. It's the twinkle. He's a mischievous imp.

People commit suicide and people say "I don't know why", I say "You don't? What, you live in a cotton candy house or something? What the fuck?"

[Rolf Lundgren]

Have spent the past few days devouring various Norm videos on YouTube and enjoying a lot of the tributes from Conan, Spade, Letterman et al.

Norm always felt like my comedian in the way that people feel they own a band for seeing them live before they were big. In my case it wasn't before they were big but it was watching The Norm Show, shown on Channel 4 on the early hours of the morning sometime in the early 2000s. Who on earth would be watching? Had never heard of him before that, no clue about SNL or Weekend Update, and was completely baffled why a guy who couldn't act was given his own sitcom. There was something curious about it though, maybe Norm's charm, maybe my own desire to cling to an unloved sitcom in the hope that it would be good, that made me keep watching but it was a run-of-the-mill American studio audience laugh track sitcom and didn't pull up any trees.

A few years later I started watching a bunch of Tom Green videos who happened to be interviewing Norm and it all clicked into place. Here was Norm being Norm, unleashed not in the Byron Allen sense, but free to do what he wanted in the guise of long form conversation and it quickly became apparent I was watching the funniest guy in the world.

Ever since then I'd dip in and out and happened to be watching a lot of Dennis Miller/Norm videos around the time that he announced the Norm MacDonald Live podcast. To this day, the first episode with Super Dave is one of my go-to pick-me-up videos. It's utterly joyous from start to finish and Norm, Dave and to be fair Adam's schtick gelled together so well (Norm setting up Adam, constantly needling Super Dave, Super Dave deadpanning it all brilliantly) that it's hard to believe it's the first episode. Everyone in the room gets it, they know exactly what's going on, and it just works. Damn near flawless.

But that's just my preference. Pick a Norm video at random and you'll nearly always find some gold in there, sometimes it's just the cadence or a certain word.

There's not much to add to what others have said but comedic genius just about sums it up. It's hard to name many comedians who have such a strong hit rate. I'm not as convinced that philosopher Norm was as smart as others think, he was clearly a considered thinker but some of his conclusions were just mad. The allegations all sound horrible and it does taint the man, for me the comedy or the vast majority of it, just about stays in tact but completely understand others who disagree.

There was definitely a mischievous side to Norm, although I hold back from calling it trolling, and I'm hearing a lot of talk about how Norm was fearless and didn't do what people wanted (the whole OJ Simpson saga for example). But ultimately Norm only said or did things that he personally thought were funny. To me, it wasn't that he was fearless or daring to do something risky, more that as long as he was entertained he thought somebody else out there would be too. I'm sure he loved every joke he told at the Saget roast for example. The fact he adored guys like Dangerfield and Rickles and had a joke section at the end of every podcast speaks volumes.

Sorely, sorely missed and awful to think how much of the end of his life was in suffering but what a dedicated and hugely funny and talented man. Very lucky to be able to pull up his work whenever we need to.

[Bronzy]

Have spent the past few days devouring various Norm videos on YouTube and enjoying a lot of the tributes from Conan, Spade, Letterman et al.

Norm always felt like my comedian in the way that people feel they own a band for seeing them live before they were big. In my case it wasn't before they were big but it was watching The Norm Show, shown on Channel 4 on the early hours of the morning sometime in the early 2000s. Who on earth would be watching? Had never heard of him before that, no clue about SNL or Weekend Update, and was completely baffled why a guy who couldn't act was given his own sitcom. There was something curious about it though, maybe Norm's charm, maybe my own desire to cling to an unloved sitcom in the hope that it would be good, that made me keep watching but it was a run-of-the-mill American studio audience laugh track sitcom and didn't pull up any trees.

A few years later I started watching a bunch of Tom Green videos who happened to be interviewing Norm and it all clicked into place. Here was Norm being Norm, unleashed not in the Byron Allen sense, but free to do what he wanted in the guise of long form conversation and it quickly became apparent I was watching the funniest guy in the world.

Ever since then I'd dip in and out and happened to be watching a lot of Dennis Miller/Norm videos around the time that he announced the Norm MacDonald Live podcast. To this day, the first episode with Super Dave is one of my go-to pick-me-up videos. It's utterly joyous from start to finish and Norm, Dave and to be fair Adam's schtick gelled together so well (Norm setting up Adam, constantly needling Super Dave, Super Dave deadpanning it all brilliantly) that it's hard to believe it's the first episode. Everyone in the room gets it, they know exactly what's going on, and it just works. Damn near flawless.

But that's just my preference. Pick a Norm video at random and you'll nearly always find some gold in there, sometimes it's just the cadence or a certain word.

There's not much to add to what others have said but comedic genius just about sums it up. It's hard to name many comedians who have such a strong hit rate. I'm not as convinced that philosopher Norm was as smart as others think, he was clearly a considered thinker but some of his conclusions were just mad. The allegations all sound horrible and it does taint the man, for me the comedy or the vast majority of it, just about stays in tact but completely understand others who disagree.

There was definitely a mischievous side to Norm, although I hold back from calling it trolling, and I'm hearing a lot of talk about how Norm was fearless and didn't do what people wanted (the whole OJ Simpson saga for example). But ultimately Norm only said or did things that he personally thought were funny. To me, it wasn't that he was fearless or daring to do something risky, more that as long as he was entertained he thought somebody else out there would be too. I'm sure he loved every joke he told at the Saget roast for example. The fact he adored guys like Dangerfield and Rickles and had a joke section at the end of every podcast speaks volumes.

Sorely, sorely missed and awful to think how much of the end of his life was in suffering but what a dedicated and hugely funny and talented man. Very lucky to be able to pull up his work whenever we need to.

You remind me of a guy that's good at fuckin'.



Fuckin' and suckin'.

[chveik]

it's a shame he stopped messing around with the ads after the mangrate debacle

[Bennett Brauer]

There's an article about Norm in the Guardian today, but unfortunately it's by that tit David Baddiel so not sure I can bring myself to read it.

Baddiel said on Twitter that Morwenna liked him, but I'm not sure if he's aware of the jokes Norm made against her. (Which may have been in fun, of course.)

[Dusty Substance]

Baddiel said on Twitter that Morwenna liked him, but I'm not sure if he's aware of the jokes Norm made against her. (Which may have been in fun, of course.)

What did Norm say about Morwenna Banks? Odd to think he was even aware of her but perhaps they crossed paths at some comedy festival or other.

[Huxwell]

Norm was at SNL when Morwenna Banks was a cast member for four episodes in 1995. He said that Laura Kightlinger's "alleged comedy" made Morwenna Banks look like Gilda Radner.

[Bennett Brauer]

And when he was told a writer had ranked everyone who'd ever been in SNL and was asked where he thought his name would be, he said he didn't care, "as long as I beat Morwenna Banks".

I'm not sure how personal it was if Baddiel said she liked him. I suspect he rated male comedians much higher than women, but maybe he was just picking on her name because she wasn't at SNL very long (and didn't get a fair chance to prove herself).

EDIT: The comment is halfway through this interview https://lasvegasmagazine.com/interviews/qa/2016/feb/05/norm-macdonald-hard-rock-hotel-comedy/

[up_the_hampipe]

Yeah, I think those jokes were just about how she came and went so quickly, she was essentially nothing. It's like how he'd do the "post-Sasso" joke on Norm Macdonald Live. Will Sasso is a great talent, but describing his era on Mad TV like that had any impact on the world of comedy is very funny.

[Dusty Substance]

Morwenna Banks was a cast member for four episodes in 1995

Good grief. Consider my hat to be well and truly fucked.

[Bennett Brauer]

Good grief. Consider my hat to be well and truly fucked.

You probably know that Pamela Stephenson (I know she's not British) was a cast member too, 10 years before that. She lasted one season (17 episodes).

I don't think she was happy there, but at least she got more of a chance to prove herself than Morwenna Banks did.  Banks was a late replacement for Janeane Garofalo who had quit after complaining about SNL's misogynism.

[Bennett Brauer]

Also it was a choice between Andrea Martin and Stephenson at the end, and I think AM would have been the right one, as great a mimic as Stephenson was. Lorne Michaels wasn't there for that season - I think he'd have chosen Martin if he was.