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March 28, 2024, 08:38:21 AM

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Not getting racism when you're young

Started by Rev+, September 18, 2021, 12:37:19 AM

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The Culture Bunker

Strange this is, I grew up in a rough-arsed post-industrial Northern English town and I don't actually remember racism growing up in the 80s and 90s: this might be because just about everyone was white and the only black/Asian/etc people you saw was when you watched the TV. A friend of mine, born in same town but of Korean parents, was pretty much the sole ethnic minority in our school.

Indeed, the one instance of racism I remember from those times was when I was 17 and loads of us from sixth form headed out on Saturday night - entering one pub, some prick made a remark about my friend - I'm happy to say my entire group (about 15 of us) collectively kicked off and the knobhead had to make a swift retreat to some other premises.

Of course, the place made up for the lack of racism with plenty of casual homophobia.

Going through some old stuff a while back I found an old diary/activity book thing somebody gave me one Christmas when I was a kid  - some kind of wacky 'Diary for Cool Kidz 1989' thing with stickers and suchlike.

Anyway, it seemed I had customised it with small line drawings of smiling ethnic caricatures next to the various holy days and festivals that there mentioned[nb]28 years old, I was[/nb] - things like a drawing of a stereotypical Chinese man next to Chinese New Year. I mean, there was no malice in it, they were just funny ideas and names to my child's mind, but, yeah, thought I'd better bin that!

Dex Sawash

Can we also do away with Gazza, Jezza, etc just because I have no idea who you are talking about.

JaDanketies

Mocking Native Americans was okay in my childhood. Cowboys and Indians, and the war-cry, etc. There was that kids' TV programme How that had it as its theme. Think there was a character in The Dandy or The Beano that was a native American stereotype. No malice though, presumably because very few Native Americans live over here

RenegadeScrew

Claiming as MikeP does that words are the same because of how they are being developed in terms of language is ridiculous even aside from racism.  It's like expecting to use "cunty" in front of your granny and then arguing its the same as "crappy".

The world is full of us all speaking in a certain way to certain people.  Not many people call their boss a cunt, yet they might tell their friends that. But not their granny.

It's the same with media.  Murdoch can sack who he wants, when he wants.  But if he does it because he's pressured into it regarding something he doesn't personally give a shit about.....then all hell breaks loose and you can't say you are English anymore.

kalowski

Quote from: bgmnts on September 18, 2021, 10:24:46 AM
I mean I know someone who will still say ch**ky chows to refer to chinese food.
That's so depressing. That was shown up for being out of date back in the first series of I'm Alan Partridge.

Kankurette

Quote from: JaDanketies on September 18, 2021, 11:36:18 AM
Mocking Native Americans was okay in my childhood. Cowboys and Indians, and the war-cry, etc. There was that kids' TV programme How that had it as its theme. Think there was a character in The Dandy or The Beano that was a native American stereotype. No malice though, presumably because very few Native Americans live over here
Oh yeah, Little Plum. And that strip ran well into the '90s. There was a surprising amount of anti-East Asian racism as well, that was discussed in another thread.

Jumblegraws

Quote from: touchingcloth on September 18, 2021, 01:53:10 AM
I had to see the headmaster once because I had called Curtis a "black horse's ass", because he was being an arse and I had heard "black horse's ass" as an insult in Home Alone.

I can see why I got in trouble given that Curtis was black, and the Home Alone line is actually "big horse's ass".








I was 28.
I called a couple of older lads that when I was eight after seeing Home Alone 2 and didn't understand the shocked response. I had thought the "ass" of the phrase meant "donkey" and that it was an insult because a "horse's ass" referred to a beast of burden so lowly that it was owned by another beast of burden.

MikeP

Quote from: Echo Valley 2-6809 on September 18, 2021, 02:52:01 AM
It's all just words, what's the problem?
Assuming you're not doing a bit, it's about context. 'p**i' was emblematic for the National Front and similar sub-humans. 'p**i-bashing' really was a rite of passage for some people (working-class people, let's not deny it) in the 1970s and '80s, so the word's poisonously loaded.

So if it had been called 'Pakistani bashing' what would we call people from Pakistan now?

chveik

i know it's not racist but i do hate when tennis pundits say 'aussie'. it sounds silly and patronising

i 'got' racism quite quickly, my parents being socialists and all that.

MikeP

Quote from: TrenterPercenter on September 18, 2021, 08:27:45 AM

Now you've got MikeyP here seeing it as their invitation to actually question whether some racist terms are actually racist and innocently ask why abbreviating Aussie is not racist.  Fuck off.

Missed the point didn't you? I'm not questioning whether racist terms are racist, I'm questioning why ordinary terms are selectively deemed to be any kind of 'ist'.

Are you being racist if you refer to the majority of the UK population as whiteys, rosbiff, pommie bastards, limeys, roundeyes, christians, whatever? I really don't think so.


Johnny Yesno

Quote from: flotemysost on September 18, 2021, 10:47:55 AM
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you must be thick as pig shit

Given the bit of 'logic' four posts up, I'd say more like a submarine door.

TrenterPercenter

Quote from: MikeP on September 18, 2021, 01:59:05 PM
Missed the point didn't you? I'm not questioning whether racist terms are racist, I'm questioning why ordinary terms are selectively deemed to be any kind of 'ist'.

Are you being racist if you refer to the majority of the UK population as whiteys, rosbiff, pommie bastards, limeys, roundeyes, christians, whatever? I really don't think so.

Listen very closely.



Fuck off you racist cunt.

bgmnts

Had to google rosbif.

Doesnt really look like a French word to me but I like it, although according to my extensive research (one google search) it seems to only slag English anyway, so carry on I say.

Maybe Gammon? Gammon is the closest thing to a racial slur we have isnt it?

Johnny Yesno

Quote from: bgmnts on September 18, 2021, 02:12:36 PM
Maybe Gammon? Gammon is the closest thing to a racial slur we have isnt it?

No.

Johnny Yesno

Aaaanyway, it was 'tigger' and 'holler' in the version I learned.

The laundering seems obvious now but I was blind to it when I was a schoolkid.

Although, I seem to remember wondering 'A tigger? Surely, there's only one.'

bgmnts

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on September 18, 2021, 02:13:58 PM
No.

Isn't it specifically taking piss out of the pinky flushed faces of white gimps? I know it's for people with shit opinions and not all white people or whatever but can a chinese person be a gammon?

Johnny Yesno

Gammonism is a psychological condition associated with specific attitudes and living conditions that periodically renders the sufferer a particular hue.

Gammons could just stop.

flotemysost

Quote from: MikeP on September 18, 2021, 01:59:05 PM
Missed the point didn't you? I'm not questioning whether racist terms are racist, I'm questioning why ordinary terms are selectively deemed to be any kind of 'ist'.

Are you being racist if you refer to the majority of the UK population as whiteys, rosbiff, pommie bastards, limeys, roundeyes, christians, whatever? I really don't think so.

It's incredibly simple. The racist terms which you're "horrified" that we can't use are hugely loaded with a long history of hatred, prejudice, oppression, violence and slaughter of the people they're being used against (and it's not just a historical thing, as all of these problems very much still exist). Can you honestly not see why it's not OK to refer to a person of colour using these very very hurtful and derogatory terms, but it is OK to use a far more neutral and less loaded qualifier?

Rosbif, pommie etc. aren't exactly flattering terms but no, they're not the same thing at all, because they simply do not have a direct association with longstanding, systemic and fatal oppression of minority groups. It's not hard to understand. (As for "Aussie" and "Kiwi", most Australian/New Zealander people I know refer to themselves as such, I find it hard to believe people haven't come across this.)

There isn't some Bureau of Wokeness which suddenly decides overnight that no one's allowed to say anything any more, though it's a seductive myth because it means we don't have to confront our own prejudice and privilege. They've always been hateful terms to those they're directed against, and to act as if the recognition of this is somehow a violation of your own rights screams volumes.

bgmnts

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on September 18, 2021, 02:28:38 PM
Gammonism is a psychological condition associated with specific attitudes and living conditions that periodically renders the sufferer a particular hue.

Gammons could just stop.

Sure, but that hue is only on white people yes?


Are there other racial variants on gammons?

Johnny Yesno


bgmnts

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on September 18, 2021, 02:40:07 PM
Have you seen any?

Angry racists/xenophobes/conservative arseholes of colours other than white? Yeah a few.

flotemysost

I think the point with "gammon" is that their views and actions are founded on white privilege - the fact that it refers to their complexion doesn't make it racist. I'm fairly certain no one's ever had "gammon" shouted at them in the street just because of the way they look.

chveik


jobotic

Quote from: Johnny Yesno on September 18, 2021, 02:28:38 PM
Gammonism is a psychological condition associated with specific attitudes and living conditions that periodically renders the sufferer a particular hue.

Gammons could just stop.

Yes I'm a white English man and I ain't no gammon.

Whether or not someone is called a P**I or a n****r by a racist isn't dependent on their attitude or behaviour.

Bernice

How come if you say 'i would like a sandwich please' someone gives you a sandwich but if you say 'i would like a second holocaust' suddenly you are racist???

chveik

Quote from: Bernice on September 18, 2021, 03:45:16 PM
How come if you say 'i would like a sandwich please' someone gives you a sandwich but if you say 'i would like a second holocaust' suddenly you are racist???

you forgot to say please

Elderly Sumo Prophecy

Quote from: bgmnts on September 18, 2021, 02:18:32 PM
Isn't it specifically taking piss out of the pinky flushed faces of white gimps? I know it's for people with shit opinions and not all white people or whatever but can a chinese person be a gammon?

No, a Chinese person of that persuasion would be called a Char Siu.

MikeP

Quote from: bgmnts on September 18, 2021, 09:05:33 AM
I'm not comparing it to anything, just saying is calling someone a Taff cunt or a Frog cunt or a Kiwi cunt racist?

Probably the answer would have to be yes. Sadly verbal discrimination is all about how you take it rather than how its given. Call me what you like and it bothers me not, it just reflects your humour or your bad manners -depending upon how it's used. I have never been verbally discriminated against because I really don't care what you call me. I have many times been actually discriminated against for reasons including race, colour and culture. That is what anti-racism should target, not words.
Were I so inclined I could be extremely abusive about someone's race without ever using a proscribed word.  But not being an inconsiderate twat I would never dream of doing so. I care too much for reasonable people's feelings

Children were often taught the wisdom of the rhyme "sticks and stones may break my bones but calling never harms me".
A lesson which more people ought to take on board.