Author Topic: Scotland's future  (Read 2414 times)

Scotland's future
« on: October 06, 2021, 09:39:51 AM »
They say that independence is inevitable due to it's support amongst the young.  If so, lots of decisions to be made.  Rejoining the EU - would they want us? Money: keep the pound, new Scottish pounds, Euros?  Do we ditch the royals?  Foreign policy will be tricky, let's see how it affects Ireland then team up with the biggest faction along with the Welsh.  Boris then knows to watch his step.  So what do you make of it all?  Where appropriate, please preface your post with I AM ENGLISH so we can decide if we want to totally ignore you.  Just kidding.

bgmnts

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2021, 09:44:54 AM »
Yes.
Euros.
Yes

TrenterPercenter

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2021, 10:02:59 AM »
I AM ENGLISH but past my mum and dad they are all Irish, Scottish and Welsh.

My instant gut feeling is Scotland should get itself away from it's abusive relationship with England however I hate the idea of the break down of the union because it is, was and should have been a progressive institution.  If Scotland does leave then I squarely blame the English rightwing and the Tories for their behaviour.

It will not happen though; Scotland is essential to the UKs nuclear treaty; the weapons belong to the UK not England.  They will do everything and anything they can to ensure Scotland cannot leave.

Zetetic

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2021, 10:07:37 AM »
rUK would be the successor state to the UK. The issues with nuclear weapons are a matter of where to put sub bases, not ambiguity about treaty inheritance.

Leaving the UK doesn't mean ending your relationship with the Westminster administration, just as leaving the EU hasn't ended the UK's relationship with its member states. Scotland (and Wales) needs to take seriously how it will cope with English interference and interests post-independence, with very little in the way of international interest from elsewhere.

Johnny Foreigner

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2021, 10:09:55 AM »
- Meh, Brussels is a shithole; enter at your own peril. One of the most depressing cities in Europe. As for membership: I think the state of Scotland would be welcome in the EU, provided it keeps its mouth shut. It would be slighly less powerful than Denmark and slightly more than Luxembourg. They do, however, provide excellent salaries if you can join their staff.
- Scottish pounds are what we already have; they are currently worth more than euros. Depends upon how often you intend to cross the border to England; if the euro remains at this level, the exchange rates would be unfavourable if you want to grab a pint in Berwick-upon-Tweed.
- The royals don't bother me personally; I just think we shouldn't pay them. Scrap the Civil List.

Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2021, 10:11:06 AM »
I’m English and lived in Scotland for a couple of years.  It gave me a new perspective on the union,  which is that it’s totally lop sided and I think the Scottish are better off going it alone and rejoining the EU.  I hope they do it.

TrenterPercenter

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2021, 10:19:15 AM »
rUK would be the successor state to the UK. The issues with nuclear weapons are a matter of where to put sub bases, not ambiguity about treaty inheritance.

You are right here.

Quote
Leaving the UK doesn't mean ending your relationship with the Westminster administration, just as leaving the EU hasn't ended the UK's relationship with its member states. Scotland (and Wales) needs to take seriously how it will cope with English interference and interests post-independence, with very little in the way of international interest from elsewhere.

Sure but this is just faragism, no you are not leaving Europe or ending your relationship but you are doing something quite significant to it aren't you.  I'm not really sure what I've said that disagrees with this mind I spoke about the breakdown of the union, the UK left the Europe union yes?! it still has a relationship with Europe yes.

katzenjammer

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2021, 10:20:42 AM »
I understand the sentiment, but the practical realities will be a nightmare. Sorting out ministries, police, army, border controls, customs, and so on. Separatists rarely if ever present a clear plan about how these kind of things will be sorted out.

Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2021, 10:22:41 AM »
I understand the sentiment, but the practical realities will be a nightmare. Sorting out ministries, police, army, border controls, customs, and so on. Separatists rarely if ever present a clear plan about how these kind of things will be sorted out.

True,  but it is possible, all be it difficult as Brexit has shown us thus far.

Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2021, 10:31:00 AM »
Assuming oil becomes less important, Scottish independence is not economically viable, is it? Even now it's not. You can have a lot of freedom in a federal system (ref US) without being independent. Probably the way to go. But splitting off from the UK when you're literally part of the landmass? Nah.

Zetetic

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2021, 10:32:41 AM »
Sure but this is just faragism, no you are not leaving Europe or ending your relationship but you are doing something quite significant to it aren't you.  I'm not really sure what I've said that disagrees with this mind I spoke about the breakdown of the union, the UK left the Europe union yes?! it still has a relationship with Europe yes.
Wasn't specifically directed at you (alone) Trenter, although:
My instant gut feeling is Scotland should get itself away from it's abusive relationship with England

My point is that a lot of Scottish (and Welsh) independence advocacy does partially turn on the idea of escaping the control of the Westminster administration. Often Estonia and Slovenia are mentioned as examples, if not models, of how independence is normal - rarely are alternatives implied by those choices discussed, or how independence practically depended heavily on the support of both Western Europe and the military threat of NATO.

Westminster will retain a serious interest in Scottish and Welsh affairs for various reasons, and it's not clear that in independence this countries would find half-way suitable allies to address this.

Johnny Foreigner

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2021, 10:33:14 AM »
A side-note if nothing more: I understand the sentiment too, but I have an aversion (perhaps irrationally) to nationalism. Scottish nationalism portrays itself as left-wing, which took some getting used to when I moved here. The Flemish nationalism I got to know during my youth was rooted in World War II collaboration; now-a-days, those who scream loudest for Flemish independence are still firmly on the right of the political spectrum. Their forebears were the staunchly Catholic, ultra-conservative chaps who thought Nazi Germany was coming to the rescue of its germanic kinsfolk and that Hitler was going to liberate them from the francophone yoke. Freedom for Flanders, to the glory of God and our soil, that kind of thing.
It was a very different kind of nationalism from what I see in contemporary Scotland. I still find it hard to reconcile nationalism with progressive politics.


Zetetic

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2021, 10:37:49 AM »
You can have a lot of freedom in a federal system (ref US) without being independent.
Westminster and "England" has no interest in federalism. Practically this would only be possible with the destruction of England (but then meaningful independence of Scotland and Wales probably requires this as well).

For context:
California has 39 million people - 12% of the United States' population.
Russia had 147 million people in 1989 - 51% of the Soviet Union's population.
Serbia had 9.8 million people in 1991 - 41% of Yugoslavia's population.
North Rhine-Westphalia has 18 million people - 22% of Germany's population.[1]
England has a population of 56 million - 84% of the United Kingdom's.
 1. 27% of West Germany's in 1980.

Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #13 on: October 06, 2021, 10:51:11 AM »
I'd prefer a federal UK along a German model, but I think that idea is sunk. (Some countries like France seem able to massively reorganise their constitutions every 20 years but every change in Britain takes a lifetime.) The practical implications will be serious, and the fact that England is fucked and short-sighted and narrow-minded means that as with the current situation in Ireland it'll mean tough negotiations and lots of arguments and abuse, whereas a sane government in Westminster would probably be able to do it in a civilised way (even David Cameron would have been better as I'm sure he would have been "lol whatevs scotland you live your best life hun").

A lot of it will be driven by issues of identity and what kind of Scotland people want. There is definitely the young educated urban hipster population who lean to the Greens and see themselves as Scottish and European and want to rejoin the EU, don't care about the monarchy, would probably be happy with Euros.

What is a complete mystery to me is the other side of the SNP vote want. And the Alba party guys. The middle-aged ex-Labour voters who've switched to the SNP. Are these the Scottish equivalent of the working-class socially-conservative Brexit voter? And related but slightly different, the old nats, the fundamentalist wing. Salmond was keen on being exactly the same except outside the UK (keep pound, keep royal family, close links to England, stay in EU when that was a thing, ideas of a low-tax pro-business economy like Ireland). But what kind of Scotland do these people want? An Old Labour paradise? A Sunday Post paradise? Something more Braveheart? I guess Alba's failure could mean these people are small in number, but does it?

bgmnts

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #14 on: October 06, 2021, 11:03:43 AM »
I dont want the UK, at all. I fucking hate Britain and the notion of being British and have never ever felt British in my life. It only benefits a small portion of one country so it's just shite.

Just Wales, Ireland, England and Scotland please.

Dex Sawash

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #15 on: October 06, 2021, 11:25:37 AM »

I am American and didn't know Scotland was on the same island as England until Mel Gibson walked there in Braveheart and I ran to get an atlas to see if that was possible. Best ignore any opinion I have then.

Alberon

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2021, 11:34:52 AM »
An independent Scotland would want to rejoin the EU, but that would mean they would have to accept the Euro. I don't think there will be any choice there. It's a better option than just deciding to keep Sterling.

Negotiations over border access would probably be as successful and coherant as the ones over Northern Ireland and the EU. rUK would probably lease the Trident base for a decade or more before moving it south of the border.

I don't think there will be an economic benefit to Scotland to go independent, but then a person's position on the issue shouldn't be decided by purely monetary issues.

As someone from southern England I do feel British first and foremost, but it saddens me that that is so poisoned that it is rejected by so many people. The Empire and old Britain was mostly shit and should be reviled, but for all its many many faults there are lots of positives about British life today compared to the rest of the world.

I believe Scotland will go independent in the reasonably near future and I see that as my home country breaking up.

Old Nehamkin

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2021, 11:35:24 AM »
A side-note if nothing more: I understand the sentiment too, but I have an aversion (perhaps irrationally) to nationalism. Scottish nationalism portrays itself as left-wing, which took some getting used to when I moved here. The Flemish nationalism I got to know during my youth was rooted in World War II collaboration; now-a-days, those who scream loudest for Flemish independence are still firmly on the right of the political spectrum. Their forebears were the staunchly Catholic, ultra-conservative chaps who thought Nazi Germany was coming to the rescue of its germanic kinsfolk and that Hitler was going to liberate them from the francophone yoke. Freedom for Flanders, to the glory of God and our soil, that kind of thing.
It was a very different kind of nationalism from what I see in contemporary Scotland. I still find it hard to reconcile nationalism with progressive politics.

This whole framing is strange to me though because I still don't understand what makes support for Scottish independence any more inherently "nationalistic" than Unionism. The belief that the United Kingdom should be indefinitely preserved could be framed as "nationalism" just as easily as the belief that it shouldn't be, and you only need to take a cursory glance at some of the louder elements of Scotland's anti-independence coalition to see that violently nationalistic rhetoric is, let's say, not entirely unheard of on that side of the fence (try walking into your local Rangers pub and see where talking shit about the British empire or the queen gets you).

Since 2014, I've seen a fair few people in my hometown put up Saltires outside their houses, and I've also seen a fair few people put up Union Jacks (the latter often clearly done in retaliation to the former or vice-versa). Now and then (but less frequently than is often caricatured) I've heard pro-Indy people directly conflate the independence movement with Scotland's historical conflicts against England, and conversely I've heard anti-Indy people going on about loyalty to the monarchy and identification with the perceived glory of Britain's military/imperial past. People on both sides are capable of interpreting and expressing their position in varied and sometimes conflicting terms, "nationalistic" in character or otherwise. I don't accept that the anti-independence position should be seen as an inherently neutral one simply because it involves preserving the status quo.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2021, 12:09:19 PM by Old Nehamkin »

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #18 on: October 06, 2021, 11:49:56 AM »
ENGLISH SCUM SPEAKING BELOW:

I dont want the UK, at all. I fucking hate Britain and the notion of being British and have never ever felt British in my life. It only benefits a small portion of one country so it's just shite.

Just Wales, Ireland, England and Scotland please.

These countries have existed prior to the Union and do today, your preference in the sentence below is something that already exists.

If you are talking about a change in how the states are governed and wanting not only devolved government (seemingly relatively successful for Wales and Scotland, less for for N. Ireland) but full independence then that will not change your daily life or others hugely, though I concede it may still be preferable as a notion for you.

You will continue to be culturally British until the day you die, whether that is a source of pride, shame or whatever, just as someone Yorkshire born and bred will have different cultural traditions to someone from the West Country, but far more in common with them. Mutually intelligent shared language, similar geography and climate, similar pastimes and occupations, similar villages, towns and cities. This is something really reinforced on my trip to County Kerry, a long way from Westminster but the locals were talking about the Palace v Brighton game, and in all real senses part of a British Isles cultural umbrella that includes distinctive regional/country differences but an unusually similar shared day to day existence and commonality. If the government of the day is not trying to crush your expression then the only real practical question is what shape should that government take. I agree that the UK as a concept and Britain as a concept can be progressive and posseses lots of fine elements, just as the very flawed EU does, just as the very flawed Yugoslava did.

I would never question your own feelings in your heart as to your identity, but where direct political resentment is concerned it's important to direct the anger where it is deserved and that is at an unrepentant, unreforming, crooked London centric elite, in which case you have the same enemy as most of England does, and we should all club together to defeat it and come out the other side together too.

Zetetic

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #19 on: October 06, 2021, 11:53:09 AM »
England doesn't really exist separate from the UK, other than as an absence of the other countries. It so completely dominates the UK[1] - in a way that no part of the US, Germany, Yugoslavia or even the USSR does or did - that it currently can't really be identified as distinct from it.
 1. And would continue to dominate a post-UK Britain.

Zetetic

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #20 on: October 06, 2021, 11:55:22 AM »
It's extremely difficult to find meaningful comparisons to the England/UK relationship. Arguably "European Russia" isn't as dominant in Russia even.

Gurke and Hare

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #21 on: October 06, 2021, 11:57:51 AM »
Separatists rarely if ever present a clear plan about how these kind of things will be sorted out.

The Scottish government produced a 200 page white paper with detailed proposals for how things would proceed following an independence vote prior to the last referendum.

Old Nehamkin

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2021, 11:58:57 AM »
The Scottish government produced a 200 page white paper with detailed proposals for how things would proceed following an independence vote prior to the last referendum.

Shhh.

Old Nehamkin

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2021, 12:01:27 PM »
Assuming oil becomes less important, Scottish independence is not economically viable, is it? Even now it's not. You can have a lot of freedom in a federal system (ref US) without being independent. Probably the way to go. But splitting off from the UK when you're literally part of the landmass? Nah.

Imagine two different nations existing on the same landmass. Can only assume this has never been done.

Cuellar

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2021, 12:02:29 PM »
It never did Ireland any harm to be fair.

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2021, 12:02:39 PM »
England doesn't really exist separate from the UK, other than as an absence of the other countries. It so completely dominates the UK[1] - in a way that no part of the US, Germany, Yugoslavia or even the USSR does or did - that it currently can't really be identified as distinct from it.
 1. And would continue to dominate a post-UK Britain.

Not sure that Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Montenegro or Macedonia would agree with that assertion, (although maybe Montenegro would still, the cucks).

Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2021, 12:14:40 PM »
if i was Scottish Id be desperate to get away.

However from a Welsh point of view, if they go we are completely doomed. Yes Cymru has risen in the last 5 years particularly but the sheer amount of english people who live in Welsh territory so have a say make any sort of referendum a foregone conclusion, hence tied to a massive tory english majority for the rest of time.

Poirots BigGarlickyCorpse

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2021, 12:18:06 PM »
You will continue to be culturally British until the day you die, whether that is a source of pride, shame or whatever, just as someone Yorkshire born and bred will have different cultural traditions to someone from the West Country, but far more in common with them. Mutually intelligent shared language, similar geography and climate, similar pastimes and occupations, similar villages, towns and cities. This is something really reinforced on my trip to County Kerry, a long way from Westminster but the locals were talking about the Palace v Brighton game, and in all real senses part of a British Isles cultural umbrella that includes distinctive regional/country differences but an unusually similar shared day to day existence and commonality.
Yeah, no.

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2021, 12:20:03 PM »
if i was Scottish Id be desperate to get away.

However from a Welsh point of view, if they go we are completely doomed. Yes Cymru has risen in the last 5 years particularly but the sheer amount of english people who live in Welsh territory so have a say make any sort of referendum a foregone conclusion, hence tied to a massive tory english majority for the rest of time.

Presume you still agree that just like how the large numbers of Scottish, Welsh, Irish people living in England can participate in English elections, English people should get a say if they happen to be legally resident in another country. Further still, that they should be allowed to live in Wales pre or post future independence.

Because otherwise its just a few small steps from there to 'Wales for the Welsh' and very ugly, flawed nationalist nonsense.

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Re: Scotland's future
« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2021, 12:21:28 PM »

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